Adam & Logic, 2nd Edition

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I can only think of putting oneself into Adam and Eve’s “shoes”. If you know that your action would cause a great deal of suffering to your children, and you have no fallen nature to begin with, would you want to create disorder in yourself, knowing it will be passed onto your children.

Adam and Eve needed only to obey one command, if like Grannymh says they had all those talents, less a fallen nature, they still believed they would be better off disordered and die.
I think the real issue is simply that they didn’t *believe *God; they didn’t take Him at His word, something we’re all called to do now as well. I doubt they really believed they would die, preferring the devil’s lie instead.
 
What I am wondering is – Could Adam, with his rational talents, figure out that it he and his spouse Eve would be the sole founders of humanity? What would give him a clue? Genesis 3: 9 which follows from Genesis 2: 15-17? Or maybe other verses? Could the author of the first three chapters of Genesis have known that the special Garden had a population of two?
I withdraw my first question in bold because it is not about sin and disorder.

All it asks is “Could Adam, with his rational talents, figure out that that he and his spouse Eve would be the sole founders of humanity?” This has nothing to do with the temptation of Satan or Original Sin’s effects.

Please accept my sincere apology for the confusion.

I will be off CAF for a bit because of internet problems.
 
I think the real issue is simply that they didn’t *believe *God; they didn’t take Him at His word, something we’re all called to do now as well. I doubt they really believed they would die, preferring the devil’s lie instead.
Well if that’s the case there was no original sin committed, just a human mistake of not listening to God’s warning, as, like you say, we’re all called to do now. And therefore it was a story told by the leaders back then to explain something that was no yet understood.
 
Well if that’s the case there was no original sin committed, just a human mistake of not listening to God’s warning, as, like you say, we’re all called to do now. And therefore it was a story told by the leaders back then to explain something that was no yet understood.
What do you mean by mistake?

The way you use the term in this post, it is equivalent to sin, the willful choice to do other than what God wanted.
 
What do you mean by mistake?

The way you use the term in this post, it is equivalent to sin, the willful choice to do other than what God wanted.
Human mistake, meaning they were only human, made in the image of God, but only human still. They had the same freewill, teaching, gifts, and commands as we seem to believe we have in the year 2015.
They choose their own will, same as we do. They aren’t separate from us, why say they had anything better?
 
Human mistake, meaning they were only human, made in the image of God, but only human still.
How is this a definition? From what you wrote sin and mistake are synonyms.
They had the same freewill, teaching, gifts, and commands as we seem to believe we have in the year 2015.
They choose their own will, same as we do. They aren’t separate from us, why say they had anything better?
Because they had it better in a least one way. That is, they were not tempted to sin by internal desires. They could only be tempted to sin by something external to themselves.
 
I like to pretend I have a good handle on how science works.
It is my observation that people can have a good handle on science once they understand that there are two worlds, the material and the spiritual.
The real question is not how does science work at the dawn of human history so much as it is how does the body of knowledge about those early years, derived from investigative science, exist in a non-conflicting harmony with Church teaching?
In order for truth not to contradict truth, science must be conducted properly and
Catholic doctrines must be properly understood. This bit of common sense dates to the days of St. Thomas Aquinas.
I truly take to heart the pronouncement that both must be in harmony in order for the truth to be known. If that harmony is absent, BOTH sides need to work to reconcile the difference in full humility.
What seriously disrupts harmony is when the science of human evolution contradicts Divine Revelation. Currently, the issue is that science posits that the human species, over years, sprang into being as a large random breeding population. Divine Revelation posits that the originating human population is two fully-developed human parents.
Absolutely true. However, science is generally self directed in that it goes where the evidence leads. So, while errors in methodology and speculation (which should be kept at a minimum by both scientists and theologians) are unavoidable, the adage is true, where there is smoke there is fire. The “probable” scientific conclusion typically tends to be the accurate conclusion leaving only degrees of variability in the minutia, not the larger concept.
May I point out that before science goes where the evidence leads, there is the initial first step which is “observe without prejudice.” Not sure – but it seems to me that today’s “smoke” is the desire to be compatible with the material world and the fire is the intention to change Divine Revelation.

This sentence is very important when interpreting current “human origin” research.
The “probable” scientific conclusion typically tends to be the accurate conclusion leaving only degrees of variability in the minutia, not the larger concept.
Probable is the key word. Typically it leads to an accurate conclusion. The difficulty is when interpreters change probable to impossible when it comes to human origin.
The only logic I know regarding human nature is that human nature is illogical. What can you do?🤷
Personally, there are times when all I can do is laugh. :rotfl:

Continued in next post 741.
 
Continued from previous post 740.
I, myself, am interested in the origin of our species because it simply is a fascinating study. Regardless of what ultimately emerges as truth, I personally won’t be too troubled faithfully because, as one whose starting point was definitely a life of sin, my path to God was Him calling me through the Holy Spirit. It was top down in that it started with God and lead to the Church, then doctrine, then the catechism. I do ponder the potential devastation bottom up Christians may face. If God is supported by all the above mentioned institutions, what happens if any one of them should somehow fail?
I tried. But I cannot yet wrap my mind around this. When confronted about the authority of the Catholic Church, my standard reply is to check out chapter 14, Gospel of John.
As for “Divine Revelation trumps,” that simply is not true any more. As I understand it, one of the motivations for V2 was the realization that society in general was becoming increasingly better educated. The Church wanted an approach that interacted with lay-minds much better prepared to receive a deeper and more sophisticated relationship with her.
Granted, the Church wanted a modern responsibility approach to current life. But the “approach” cannot change Divine Revelation. Yes, I am aware of some people, including clergy, who worked hard to match the dominance of science with a few basic Catholic doctrines. In spite of numerous “wolves in sheep’s clothing” Divine Revelation remains intact.
The down side to a more astute laity is this “Revealed Truth” necessarily must be accompanied by some darned good bridges to investigative truth because we, the faithful, have a foot in both worlds deeper than we ever had before. As I said previously, in order for there to be truth, faith and science must coexist in harmony. If they don’t there is error and both sides need set aside their partisanship, if you will, and humbly work together to weed out whatever it is that is in error.
Those bridges start on page 689 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, “Index of Citations”. Footnotes are very informative as is the small print which is explained in CCC 20-21. It is the major ecumenical councils which defines doctrines according to the protocol of the visible Catholic Church. These councils are guided by the wisdom of the promised Holy Spirit.

Humani Generis, Pius XII, 1950, is a good source of information including the beginning paragraphs.
Certainly true, but… To suggest that minus the benefit of the few thousands of years of scientific, philosophic, theological, and ethical progress we currently enjoy those authors were just as prepared to explain the origin of all creation as they would have been with it, is a pretty absurd notion. You might as well try to explain quantum theory to the most primitive and isolated tribe remaining on this planet or the color yellow to someone blind from birth. Both are so far removed from personal experience that it is an impossible task. It is an interesting question: if Genesis were being written in the present, would the “story” change to better convey the theological message? In light of that, is it not better to look at the theological truths found in Genesis rather than getting caught up in their wrappings?
Genesis 1:1 is a Catholic doctrine. What follows refers to the material physical universe and its material physical non-human inhabitants. Then there is the dramatic shift from Genesis 1: 25 to Genesis 1: 26.

Regarding “theological truths” in the first three chapters of Genesis. It is hard for some people to describe them precisely according to Catholic doctrines. From your point of view, what are the theological truths which flow (begin) from the first three chapters in Genesis. Many of the theological truths continue to be revealed. For example, Genesis 2: 15-17 and Genesis 3: 15.

From what I have seen on CAF, there are some people who are not aware of the fact that technically, human species is separate from all other living organisms. However, the charting of the human species (cladistics system/cladograms) follows the same model that all existing species originated as populations derived from previous populations which diverged from previous common ancestor populations.

Regarding this question.
It is an interesting question: if Genesis were being written in the present, would the “story” change to better convey the theological message?

Starting with Genesis 1: 26 and continuing through Genesis, chapter 3, I say that the story would not change. Even the figurative language would remain – though some would need a clarification for relevance. For example: the name, Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
 
Well if that’s the case there was no original sin committed, just a human mistake of not listening to God’s warning, as, like you say, we’re all called to do now. And therefore it was a story told by the leaders back then to explain something that was no yet understood.
The problem is that the alternative is that they knew full well that they would die-with all that this means in terms of the evil that would befall them-and still wanted to die. Do you think they may have changed their minds and chose life at some time later-as we’re all asked to do? Do you think the experience of death/evil may have affected them, in coming to know that God was right after all?

Adam & Eve had both similarities with us and differences from us. A most striking difference is the knowledge of God. They possessed that knowledge with much greater immediacy or intimacy than we have now-we must develop a hunger for it and seek after it.
 
How is this a definition? From what you wrote sin and mistake are synonyms.

Because they had it better in a least one way. That is, they were not tempted to sin by internal desires. They could only be tempted to sin by something external to themselves.
Human as in not fully God, not fully a creature, somewhere inbetween. They like us are matter and spirit. Creatures created not to know all, but to depend on the creator, but with a spiritual “spark”.

Sin and mistake are different. Mistakes are accidental and may involve poor judgement, ignorance or naiveté. Sins are a direct disobedience to one of God’s commands and principles.
The latter is what we would say Adam and Eve did, that they would have been aware of the consquences of their disobedience, so they deliberately sinned knowing the effect it would have on them.

How could they not be tempted by internal desires, it’s the will of a person, their thoughts, feelings etc that prompts us act or not. The temptation to “eat the fruit” would come from within?
 
The problem is that the alternative is that they knew full well that they would die-with all that this means in terms of the evil that would befall them-and still wanted to die. Do you think they may have changed their minds and chose life at some time later-as we’re all asked to do? Do you think the experience of death/evil may have affected them, in coming to know that God was right after all?

Adam & Eve had both similarities with us and differences from us. A most striking difference is the knowledge of God. They possessed that knowledge with much greater immediacy or intimacy than we have now-we must develop a hunger for it and seek after it.
I would say they had a change of heart pretty quickly from what is written, they hid from God, they were guilty. God didn’t relent it seems, but then the author doesn’t say A&E repent either.

Well it’s their knowledge of God that I have trouble with. What did this knowledge entail? If it means they knew God more intimately than any human after them, how could they have distrusted God? Two of the very first creatures given a soul so that they could gain a supernatural end, just allow one temptation to cause pain, suffering and death to themself and the rest of the human race. And it becomes the reserve for us, we are born separate, although born good, then we need to seek God inorder for us to hopefully gain a supernatural end.
 
I would say they had a change of heart pretty quickly from what is written, they hid from God, they were guilty. God didn’t relent it seems, but then the author doesn’t say A&E repent either.
Humankind *continues *to hide from God, so I wouldn’t think hiding constitutes any positive- any *metanoia- *kind of change.
Well it’s their knowledge of God that I have trouble with. What did this knowledge entail? If it means they knew God more intimately than any human after them, how could they have distrusted God? Two of the very first creatures given a soul so that they could gain a supernatural end, just allow one temptation to cause pain, suffering and death to themself and the rest of the human race. And it becomes the reserve for us, we are born separate, although born good, then we need to seek God inorder for us to hopefully gain a supernatural end.
Our supernatural end entails coming to choose life-to choose God. He allows us to reject Him but our very choice for Him, our love for Him, IOW, along with love of neighbor, is what defines our justice. And we don’t necessarily desire reconciliation anyway. To the extent that we sin, we carry on the family tradition, acting as if there is no God, believing we can get away with our sin in any case.

Anyway, knowledge of God does not necessarily, automatically, equate to obedience. We must grow in that knowledge; we must come to understand our need for Him, and of His goodness. We must come to know that all goodness, including our own, comes from Him alone. We’re here to learn how and why to love God. It doesn’t necessarily happen overnight apparently, even for the gracefully advantaged.
 
Human as in not fully God, not fully a creature, somewhere inbetween. They like us are matter and spirit. Creatures created not to know all, but to depend on the creator, but with a spiritual “spark”.

Sin and mistake are different. Mistakes are accidental and may involve poor judgement, ignorance or naiveté. Sins are a direct disobedience to one of God’s commands and principles.
Thank you for being clear.
The latter is what we would say Adam and Eve did, that they would have been aware of the consquences of their disobedience, so they deliberately sinned knowing the effect it would have on them.
How could they not be tempted by internal desires,
Because they were created free of original sin. It is the stain of original sin which is the source of the interior desire to go against God’s will.
it’s the will of a person, their thoughts, feelings etc that prompts us act or not. The temptation to “eat the fruit” would come from within?
No, that temptation came from the serpent.

Why do you think awareness of the consequences is a requirement some act to be a sin? Can you site Church teaching the supports this?
 
Thank you for being clear.

Because they were created free of original sin. It is the stain of original sin which is the source of the interior desire to go against God’s will.

No, that temptation came from the serpent.

Why do you think awareness of the consequences is a requirement some act to be a sin? Can you site Church teaching the supports this?
Thanks

The “stain” of Original sin is wiped away at baptism, but the effects remain… Adam and Eve created with original holiness and Justice still have some “effect” on them, some human nature within that desired to trust something other than the goodness of God. So this would be freewill (to me anyway) Two humans capable of choosing good or bad, just as we are before or after baptism. Being baptised does not guarantee a person will follow a good path in life, although it’s a great start for anyone. Being created in O.H and O.J didn’t guarantee the first two humans a place in heaven either, but maybe that was great start for them.

The temptation may have come from an outside source, but the act came from the will of the person? Like now there are many temptations around us, some stronger than others, and it is our freewill from within us that makes that choice to act or not.

I’m not sure I fully understood your question, but this is how I will reply :

If I am aware of some consequence that would harm another person physically/mentally or whatever, I would say I would most likely not act on it. We know what pain is, physically and mentally. Adam and Eve being the first created without pain, but some how aware of it, still go ahead a break the bond with God. I’m just not entirely sure I will ever reason this in my heart.
Although I don’t think that God made us in anyway to be “bad”, he just gave us freewill, but then punished us for using it. 🤷
 
Although I don’t think that God made us in anyway to be “bad”, he just gave us freewill, but then punished us for using it. 🤷
God did not create human beings with free will so that they could be their own gods. God is God and creatures are creatures. God did not create human beings with free will and then say, “go do your own thing for all eternity even it it is evil, I don’t mind even though I am infinite goodness itself. And by the way, don’t mind that I’m the one who keeps you in existence at every moment.” God also knows that doing His will is our happiness and that He alone can fulfill our every desire. God wants us to be happy and be with Him in heaven for all eternity, this is why He created us. God punishes us for disobedience in this life as a medicinal and disciplinary measure as the Scripture says: “Whoever spares the rod hates the child, but whoever loves will apply discipline” (Proverbs 13:24) and

“My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord
or lose heart when reproved by him;
for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines;
he scourges every son he acknowledges.”
Endure your trials as “discipline”; God treats you as sons. For what “son” is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are without discipline, in which all have shared, you are not sons but bastards.” (Hebrews 12: 5-8)

There are some people who would rather be unhappy than happy, and this for all eternity. This is their free choice.
 
Although I don’t think that God made us in anyway to be “bad”, he just gave us freewill, but then punished us for using it. 🤷
From the Catholic position, God gave us free will so that we can seek God. CCC 356 and CCC 1730-1732.
CCC 20-21 explains the importance of the small print.

Refer to Richca Post 748.
 
Although I don’t think that God made us in anyway to be “bad”, he just gave us freewill, but then punished us for using it. 🤷
It’s not the use of free will, but rather the *abuse *of it, that causes sin in our world. Sin, essentially opposition to goodness and order=opposition to God, the source of all goodness and order. To thus separate ourselves from His wisdom and will is punishment. It’s like a tree somehow uprooting itself from the soil and deciding that it can live anyway.
 
God did not create human beings with free will so that they could be their own gods. God is God and creatures are creatures. God did not create human beings with free will and then say, “go do your own thing for all eternity even it it is evil, I don’t mind even though I am infinite goodness itself. And by the way, don’t mind that I’m the one who keeps you in existence at every moment.” God also knows that doing His will is our happiness and that He alone can fulfill our every desire. God wants us to be happy and be with Him in heaven for all eternity, this is why He created us. God punishes us for disobedience in this life as a medicinal and disciplinary measure as the Scripture says: “Whoever spares the rod hates the child, but whoever loves will apply discipline” (Proverbs 13:24) and

“My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord
or lose heart when reproved by him;
for whom the Lord loves, he disciplines;
he scourges every son he acknowledges.”
Endure your trials as “discipline”; God treats you as sons. For what “son” is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are without discipline, in which all have shared, you are not sons but bastards.” (Hebrews 12: 5-8)

There are some people who would rather be unhappy than happy, and this for all eternity. This is their free choice.
God created two unique creatures, made in the image and likeness of himself, not just creatures. He let them use their own freely given will to decide for themselves what was good/bad. When they make the choice (wrong as it was) they are punished.

What did Jesus mean when he quoted the psalm referring to man being Gods?

Yep there’s discipline and then there is physical and metal punishment.
 
It’s not the use of free will, but rather the *abuse *of it, that causes sin in our world. Sin, essentially opposition to goodness and order=opposition to God, the source of all goodness and order. To thus separate ourselves from His wisdom and will is punishment. It’s like a tree somehow uprooting itself from the soil and deciding that it can live anyway.
What’s the point of having freewill then? I mean if one can not use their freewill, meaning their own will in order to grow, they wouldn’t be able to recognise the need to do God’s will in order to find peace/happiness etc.
 
What’s the point of having freewill then? I mean if one can not use their freewill, meaning their own will in order to grow, they wouldn’t be able to recognise the need to do God’s will in order to find peace/happiness etc.
My point was that there’s *nothing *wrong with using free will; it’s not the use, but the abuse, that gets us into trouble. Other than that, Adam’s sin was not the end of the world for man anyway. He just needed to find out, the hard way, that God is unfathomably good and trustworthy and worthy of our obedience, so that he, Adam, as well as ourselves, may choose rightly
 
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