Adam & Logic, 2nd Edition

[simpleas]

Thanks for the feedback - to clarify:

We were not created to suffer/die. Such knowledge/awareness, belonged to God who knew the reality of hell, as the Cause of all existence even to its end in nonbeing. We took on this knowledge through our act of disobedience, mistrust and pride, which damaged our relationship with God and thereby brought about our death. This would have been known to us through our intellect, as we know not to dive into a cesspool. For the reasons stated, we dove in anyway; and, here we are.

I see things along the same lines, that we “offer creation back to God”, by sharing in His love.

We are made in God’s image in a number of ways such as the capacity to love, reason, appreciate beauty, attributes which are synonymous with being. We are in His image because the Word was made flesh as a human being. The way in which we are in the image of God and how we are different from the angels has to do with the creation of Eve. Reflecting the Triune Reality wherein the Son is eternally begotten of the Father, Eve is of the unity that is the flesh and spirit of Adam, and they are joined in the love that proceeds from each of them, as the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. We exist as self-and-other, relational beings as is God, in fullness of the Trinity.

We sin as did the angels who fell before us.

This is how it makes sense to me.

Thanks for your thoughts.

I don’t know enough to make sense of somethings you have said, or know enough of A&E to be able to connect them with the son and father.

We were immortal just as the angels are, some angels sinned, but remain immortal in hell? We sinned and became mortal, so we are different from Angels…

 

[fhansen]

What I was trying to point out was that when we say they ate from the tree and sinned, they then knew what Evil was, through experience. But they didn’t need to experience evil because they had an understanding of it.
So did they experience Good or did they just have an understanding of Good?
If they experienced Good, then the tree would just be called the tree of Evil. But if they hadn’t experienced both, then the tree was named Good and Evil.
If we have conscience that means we already know what is Good and what is Evil, so we can hopefully choose the Good, and we don’t always need to experience Evil to know this, but we need to experience Good, so we can see what Evil can be.
We would say they experienced Good and that they just needed to trust in God and avoid the tree. But it seems the experiential knowledge of both were placed in the garden, because you can’t have one without the other.

They didn’t know the ultimate Good, God, in the immediate sense of the Beatific Vision. If they did then there would be no choice in the matter; their wills would be swooned towards the perfect goodness that they were created to covet and realize. The good that they did experience, via the relatively limited relationship they had with God plus the goodness inherent in existence and creation would be appreciated-or known-as good only in contrast to the evil that they would experience beginning with the first evil, their sin, that threw them outside Gods will, distancing them from His full providence, favor, and presence in general.

 

[grannymh]

They didn’t know the ultimate Good, God, in the immediate sense of the Beatific Vision. If they did then there would be no choice in the matter; there wills would be swooned towards the perfect goodness that they were created to covet and realize. The good that they did experience, via the relatively limited relationship they had with God plus the goodness inherent in existence and creation would be appreciated-or known-only in contrast to the evil that they would experience beginning with the first evil, their sin, that threw them outside Gods will, distancing them from His full providence, favor, and presence in general.

May I respectfully request the evidence for the part I put in bold.

The good that they did experience, via the relatively limited relationship they had with God plus the goodness **inherent in existence and creation would be appreciated-or known-only in contrast to the evil that they would experience beginning with the first evil, their sin, **that threw them outside Gods will, distancing them from His full providence, favor, and presence in general.

Just had a duh moment.:doh2:
I have yet to see an argument providing the reasons why goodness can only be known in contrast to the experience of evil. I would appreciate having those reasons so that all of us can discus Adam and Eve on the same playing field.

Thank you.

 

[fhansen]

May I respectfully request the evidence for the part I put in bold.

The good that they did experience, via the relatively limited relationship they had with God plus the goodness **inherent in existence and creation would be appreciated-or known-only **in contrast to the evil that they would experience beginning with the first evil, their sin, that threw them outside Gods will, distancing them from His full providence, favor, and presence in general.

Just had a duh moment.:doh2:
I have yet to see an argument providing the reasons why goodness can only be known in contrast to the experience of evil. I would appreciate having those reasons so that all of us can discus Adam and Eve on the same playing field.

Thank you.

Because goodness was the norm of God’s creation, the creation they were part of and in the midst of. They were absolutely naive to evil since God created no evil. The term “good” would have no meaning in the situation where evil is unknown; good would not be known, as in* identifiable* as a separate reality from some alternative. If they already possessed the knowledge then there’d be no reason for a tree to exist at all that bore fruit, the act of eating of which (representing man’s rebellion/disobedience) was the means of gaining the knowledge. And this is why God says in Gen 3:22 that they knew good and evil after they sinned. I’d recommend doing a search on the Hebrew term “yada” along with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. duh moments can be alleviated.

 

[ynotzap]

Can we have knowledge of good without appreciation? I think we can And can we have knowledge of the good we have, and then consider something we think is better, minimizing the appreciation of what we have, This might be the scenairio that Adam and Eve experienced they had the good, but they were tempted to seek something they thought better, to be like God. I think we can have knowledge without FULL appreciation of what we have, and by loosing that good the impact really hits us by its lose and contrast. I believe this is a real human experience. Some thoughts

 

[fhansen]

Can we have knowledge of good without appreciation? I think we can And can we have knowledge of the good we have, and then consider something we think is better, minimizing the appreciation of what we have, This might be the scenairio that Adam and Eve experienced they had the good, but they were tempted to seek something they thought better, to be like God. I think we can have knowledge without FULL appreciation of what we have, and by loosing that good the impact really hits us by its lose and contrast. I believe this is a real human experience. Some thoughts

I’d agree with the last part at least. And I’d bet Adam & Eve know the difference now-and have responded to the grace we’re all given to turn back to God.

 

[grannymh]

Because goodness was the norm of God’s creation, the creation they were part of and in the midst of. They were absolutely naive to evil since God created no evil.

God communicated the knowledge of human evil in Genesis 2-15-17. That is the evidence that human Adam knew human evil before his Original Sin.

God created Adam’s human nature so that he could share in God’s divine life. Please check out Genesis 1: 26-27, and then go to Genesis 2:15-17, followed by Genesis 3: 8-11, and Genesis 3: 22.

Please present the Genesis citations which give proper evidence that Adam was absolutely naive to evil before Original Sin.

Genesis 3:22 repeats Genesis 2: 15-17 including the consequence which Adam knew before Original Sin. Adam’s free choice of a disobedient act is named. This affirms Genesis 3: 11.

Back to Genesis 3: 22. “The man has become like one of us , knowing what is good and what is bad!” This is symbolic of the basic reason that God expelled Adam from the Garden so that he is not allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever? There are no indications that Adam was ignorant after Genesis 2: 15-17.

1 Corinthians 15: 21-22 says: “For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being. For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life.” St. Paul recognized Genesis 3: 19, which is related to Genesis 2: 7. St. Paul’s reference to Adam’s singular creation does not give any indication that Adam was ignorant before he shattered humanity’s relationship with Divinity.

Genesis 3: 22. “The man has become like one of us , knowing what is good and what is bad!” This does not state that Adam did not know good from evil before He freely scorned his Maker. What it does state is the temptation of Satan in Genesis 3: 4-5. Not only that, but “become like us” states that Adam had chosen specific disobedience of preferring himself over God. What the second part of verse 22 does state is the fulfillment of the last part of Genesis 2: 15-17. Adam knew about possible evil from the moment God gave him the responsibility of caring for the Garden.

 

[fhansen]

God communicated the knowledge of human evil in Genesis 2-15-17. That is the evidence that human Adam knew human evil before his Original Sin.

God did nothing of the kind. He told them not to eat of it, and told them the consequences if they did. Read it-He told them *not *to eat of what tree? The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

God created Adam’s human nature so that he could share in God’s divine life. Please check out Genesis 1: 26-27, and then go to Genesis 2:15-17, followed by Genesis 3: 8-11, and Genesis 3: 22.

So being made in the image of God means that Adam & Eve possessed all His attributes, all His knowledge-omniscience-all His wisdom? If so, they simply *could *not eat of the fruit, because God cannot sin.

Please present the Genesis citations which give proper evidence that Adam was absolutely naive to evil before Original Sin.

I already did.

1. God placed the TKGE in the garden and said, ‘Do not eat of it’. *That *means they did not already possess the knowledge.
2. Eve looked at the fruit and knew that it would be good for gaining knowledge. That means that she did not already possess the knowledge.
3. After they sinned God said ,‘Now they know good and evil’. That means that they did not already possess the knowledge.
   Please present the proper evidence that A & E knew good and evil before the Fall.

Genesis 3:22 repeats Genesis 2: 15-17 including the consequence which Adam knew before Original Sin. Adam’s free choice of a disobedient act is named. This affirms Genesis 3: 11.

Yes, Adam was told not to eat of it-but he freely did… And??? You’re saying that Adam knew what God knew, he knew full well what he was getting himself into. He knew with absolute certainty what death was-and he knew with absolute certainty that he would suffer that fate if he ate of the fruit. So you can only mean to say that Adam knew that this would be his fate; he wanted to die. That’s not, however, what the story says he was after. Somehow Adam believed that he would not die-and that he would only gain by his act.

Back to Genesis 3: 22. “The man has become like one of us , knowing what is good and what is bad!” This is symbolic of the basic reason that God expelled Adam from the Garden so that he is not allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever? There are no indications that Adam was ignorant after Genesis 2: 15-17.

There was every indication that Adam had changed-only after eating the fruit. Disobedience will do that-just like God told him. He shoulda listened.

1 Corinthians 15: 21-22 says: “For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being. For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life.” St. Paul recognized Genesis 3: 19, which is related to Genesis 2: 7. St. Paul’s reference to Adam’s singular creation does not give any indication that Adam was ignorant before he shattered humanity’s relationship with Divinity.

True-it doesn’t say either way.

Genesis 3: 22. “The man has become like one of us , knowing what is good and what is bad!” This does not state that Adam did not know good from evil before He freely scorned his Maker. What it does state is the temptation of Satan in Genesis 3: 4-5. Not only that, but “become like us” states that Adam had chosen specific disobedience of preferring himself over God. What the second part of verse 22 does state is the fulfillment of the last part of Genesis 2: 15-17. Adam knew about possible evil from the moment God gave him the responsibility of caring for the Garden.

It means that he knew good and evil after, well, eating of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Did you research the term “yada” yet?

 

[simpleas]

They didn’t know the ultimate Good, God, in the immediate sense of the Beatific Vision. If they did then there would be no choice in the matter; their wills would be swooned towards the perfect goodness that they were created to covet and realize. The good that they did experience, via the relatively limited relationship they had with God plus the goodness inherent in existence and creation would be appreciated-or known-as good only in contrast to the evil that they would experience beginning with the first evil, their sin, that threw them outside Gods will, distancing them from His full providence, favor, and presence in general.

Yes I know that they didn’t see God, BV, I used to think they may have because they were spoken to by God and no other, and being immortal at the time, that some how made them able to “see” God. After sin they lost this immortality, thus lost their friendship with God and went off to live life without God. But we know God never left them.

So why do you think the tree was named as knowledge of Good and Evil? If by eating of the tree they then experienced what evil was, why name it Good too? They were already experiencing Good, limited only to perfect union with God, so they had to experience evil in order to realise what Good they already had…

 

[simpleas]

God communicated the knowledge of human evil in Genesis 2-15-17. That is the evidence that human Adam knew human evil before his Original Sin.
God created Adam’s human nature so that he could share in God’s divine life. Please check out Genesis 1: 26-27, and then go to Genesis 2:15-17, followed by Genesis 3: 8-11, and Genesis 3: 22.

Please present the Genesis citations which give proper evidence that Adam was absolutely naive to evil before Original Sin.

Genesis 3:22 repeats Genesis 2: 15-17 including the consequence which Adam knew before Original Sin. Adam’s free choice of a disobedient act is named. This affirms Genesis 3: 11.

Back to Genesis 3: 22. “The man has become like one of us , knowing what is good and what is bad!” This is symbolic of the basic reason that God expelled Adam from the Garden so that he is not allowed to put out his hand to take fruit from the tree of life also, and thus eat of it and live forever? There are no indications that Adam was ignorant after Genesis 2: 15-17.

1 Corinthians 15: 21-22 says: “For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead came also through a human being. For just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life.” St. Paul recognized Genesis 3: 19, which is related to Genesis 2: 7. St. Paul’s reference to Adam’s singular creation does not give any indication that Adam was ignorant before he shattered humanity’s relationship with Divinity.

Genesis 3: 22. “The man has become like one of us , knowing what is good and what is bad!” This does not state that Adam did not know good from evil before He freely scorned his Maker. What it does state is the temptation of Satan in Genesis 3: 4-5. Not only that, but “become like us” states that Adam had chosen specific disobedience of preferring himself over God. What the second part of verse 22 does state is the fulfillment of the last part of Genesis 2: 15-17. Adam knew about possible evil from the moment God gave him the responsibility of caring for the Garden.

Could you explain this (in red) As its written after they sinned how had God told them before?

 

[fhansen]

Yes I know that they didn’t see God, BV, I used to think they may have because they were spoken to by God and no other, and being immortal at the time, that some how made them able to “see” God. After sin they lost this immortality, thus lost their friendship with God and went off to live life without God. But we know God never left them.

So why do you think the tree was named as knowledge of Good and Evil? If by eating of the tree they then experienced what evil was, why name it Good too? They were already experiencing Good, limited only to perfect union with God, so they had to experience evil in order to realise what Good they already had…

Because only then would the two become identifiable-or known-by contrast.

 

[fhansen]

The knowledge gained by eating of the fruit is different in kind from the commands given to Adam & Eve. It’s different from their consciences. We can override or doubt our consciences-free will gives us that ability, which means that it gives us the ability to sin.

So there’s a bigger picture to this whole story. The exile from Eden was not merely punitive. It has the purpose of utilizing the knowledge gained by humanity, the knowledge of good and evil, to help in our perfecting. To bring a greater good out of the evil.

God’s not some naïve gent who was astonished by the actions of His wayward creation, Adam & Eve. The Church teaches that God’s been in the business of perfecting His creation since He created it. The Fall, redemption, and salvation were known by Him prior to creating, as part of the process of perfecting His creation. He didn’t go to plan “B” as a result of the Fall; there *was *no plan “B”. Plan “A” is the only route He took-because He’s God.

 

[simpleas]

Because only then would the two become identifiable-or known-by contrast.

Ok so they needed to eat of the tree so they would be able to know the difference between good and evil by experiencing good and evil.
In what way could they have experienced life before sin?

 

[fhansen]

Ok so they needed to eat of the tree so they would be able to know the difference between good and evil by experiencing good and evil.
In what why could they have experienced life before sin?

I don’t know that we can answer that-they did sin. But they could’ve eaten from the Tree of Life instead, partaking of God instead of relying on themselves, apart from Him, and all the consequences would’ve been averted. Immortality would’ve been their’s. I don’t think they could’ve stayed neutral in any case,JMO; ultimately they would’ve had to act-towards the good, towards God, or away from Him. Without growing in justice, growing in love for God, they probably would’ve slid backwards eventually. Again, JMO, but I think the choice could’ve been made then; we’re still asked to make it now, but now only after a detour outside of Eden, instead. It’s all about our wills.

 

[ynotzap]

In Gen 2 9- there were two trees, the tree of life, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam had knowledge of physical good, and knowledge of spiritual good when he had communication with God, he was in the state of grace.

It was God’s words that told him that if he ate of the forbidden tree, that he would die. God’s words are of the spirit, knowledge is spiritual, what God was saying was "Obey me, and trust me in what I say, and if you don’t you will separate yourself from me, and without me you will never be happy, meaning you will be separated from me forever. Separation from God is death to the soul. Trust in God is the key thought.

It is obvious that Adam didn’t understand what evil was until he lost grace. I have to agree
with fhansen, I think they were naive, which really is a mark of innocence, but a lack of experience of the loss of grace.

the tree in the middle symbolizes the access to grace, not to physical food, but to spiritual food

the tree of the knowledge of good and evil represented the test, trust in God’s words,(the good) or trust in yourself, not trusting in God’s words resulted in disobedience (the evil). God’s word was the knowledge of good, and trusting in ones knowledge opposed to God’s word is evil. the motivation was “to be like God” pride, self-sufficiency

 

[grannymh]

First, there were enough trees and plants in the Garden to support human life. One tree was named the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Second, so far no one has offered an explanation as to how Adam’s digestive system physically placed intellectual knowledge that he did not originally have into his brain cells so that he could demand a re-trial because he was stupidly naïve.

It seems to me, since no one has presented any physical data about the tree in addition to the Genesis 2: 15-17 proposition that the fruit could cause one “H E double hockey sticks” of a tummy ache – there is no real need for me to discuss the name of some tree when there is no physical explanation about how digesting a piece of fruit will make a person a super-genius. Note: there is no other knowledge besides good and evil which makes one wonder why Adam, filled to the brim with a yummy bite of sweet fruit, was embarrassed.

On the other hand, we could discuss the name of the tree based on the information in CCC, 396.

**396 **God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: “for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.” The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

 

[grannymh]

Ok so they needed to eat of the tree so they would be able to know the difference between good and evil by experiencing good and evil.
In what way could they have experienced life before sin?

Re: In what way could they have experienced life before sin?

As a porcupine? Seriously, if Adam did not know the difference between good and evil, then he was not human.

 

[fhansen]

First, there were enough trees and plants in the Garden to support human life. One tree was named the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Second, so far no one has offered an explanation as to how Adam’s digestive system physically placed intellectual knowledge that he did not originally have into his brain cells so that he could demand a re-trial because he was stupidly naïve.

It seems to me, since no one has presented any physical data about the tree in addition to the Genesis 2: 15-17 proposition that the fruit could cause one “H E double hockey sticks” of a tummy ache – there is no real need for me to discuss the name of some tree when there is no physical explanation about how digesting a piece of fruit will make a person a super-genius. Note: there is no other knowledge besides good and evil which makes one wonder why Adam, filled to the brim with a yummy bite of sweet fruit, was embarrassed.

On the other hand, we could discuss the name of the tree based on the information in CCC, 396.

**396 **God created man in his image and established him in his friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God. The prohibition against eating “of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” spells this out: “for in the day that you eat of it, you shall die.” The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

I guess I missed something if anyone suggested that the fruit of the tree might’ve magically increased A&E’s knowledge.*** Disobedience of God***, represented by eating fruit which He expressly commanded them not to eat, desiring a knowledge which He expressly commanded them not to aspire to, was the act which netted for them the knowledge of good and evil, and, with them, netted that knowledge for the whole human race, A&E’s descendants. To disobey God is to to be in opposition to His will, to step outside the bounds of justice, and therefore of His grace. This is the state of sin we’re born into, separation from the Source of our lives, the relationship which A&E enjoyed with God now destroyed-until reconciliation might somehow be achieved. Good and evil were-are- known by humans ever since.

 

[grannymh]

Re: In what way could they have experienced life before sin?

As a porcupine? Seriously, if Adam did not know the difference between good and evil, then he was not human.

I am sure that someone will point out that a severely mentally handicapped person may not know the difference between good and evil.

Please note that I specifically named Adam, the superior gardener who named animal species. To be human, Adam has a rational spiritual soul. Adam’s tools of reasoning include, but are not limited to, observation, abstract thinking, self- reflection, logical evaluation, designed experiments, analytical thought, and productive imagination. Personally I like to include gut instinct.

If Adam did not have these tools, the very tools which are used to tell the difference between good and evil, then maybe he was a highly sentient porcupine before he nibbled some fruit .

 

[ynotzap]

There seems to be a conflict in quotations. In Gen 2;9 refers to the tree of life, in the center, in Gen 3;3 it states that tree in the center is the tree of knowledge of good and evil "You shall not eat…: they couldn’t be the same tree

Could the tree of life represent the source of grace symbolically, or just physical food’? Could the tree of life represent God, and they had access to God?

The tree of knowledge of good and evil, its fruit looked good, and for gaining wisdom, wisdom is a spiritual reality.

Why the distinction between the other trees that were good for eating, and the tree of life? And they were told they could eat from all the trees.
When they were put out of Eden they were prevented from access to the tree of life, could this mean they had no access to grace, which they didn’t until Christ came. Or did it mean that the tree represented some perfect food that continued physical life. As I stated there is a lot of spiritual meaning in symbolism, It may be that the tree of life meant both interpretations? One thing for sure they learned the difference between good and evil, to trust in God and His words, and not in self.