Adam & Logic, 2nd Edition

[grannymh]

As a porcupine?

Experience life as a human being, not as some other creature is my question

They walked with God, yet did not “see” him, but the saw and spoke to a snake…

How did they live in the garden? Can we relate to a peaceful, non violent garden in which two fully intelligent human beings lived and loved each other?

How did they live in the Garden?

The answer is found in Genesis, chapter two. This answer is based on Genesis 1: 26-31. Enjoy reading.

Can we relate to a peaceful, non violent garden in which two fully intelligent human beings lived and loved each other?

Love is always possible.

 

[simpleas]

I am sure that someone will point out that a severely mentally handicapped person may not know the difference between good and evil.

Please note that I specifically named Adam, the superior gardener who named animal species. To be human, Adam has a rational spiritual soul. Adam’s tools of reasoning include, but are not limited to, observation, abstract thinking, self- reflection, logical evaluation, designed experiments, analytical thought, and productive imagination. Personally I like to include gut instinct.

If Adam did not have these tools, the very tools which are used to tell the difference between good and evil, then maybe he was a highly sentient porcupine before he nibbled some fruit .

So Adam has all that you say from the beginning of his existance, he sounds very intelligent, most highly intelligent people I know only grow in intelligence by aquiring knowledge. So this leaves me with two questions :

How could Adam being highly intelligent knowing Good and evil, prefer to trust someone other than his God, as he knows God is good and the evil will be the bad?

Did Adam need to experience Good and Evil in order to be perfected at some point?

 

[simpleas]

All true, and not at all inconsistent with the unsent letter below written by a certain reactionary demon just prior to the Fall:

Dear Adam & Eve, God told you what was right and what was wrong; He told you not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil but guess what happens if you do? You’ll know something you didn’t know before, something you hadn’t known before in Eden, something you didn’t need to know-you’ll know many things, in fact, that you’ll end up wishing you never knew; you’ll know all about good and evil-and so will your descendants. You’ll enter a brave new world, but only ***if ***you eat the fruit: Gen 2:15, Gen 3:6, Gen 3:22.

Yes, you will be like Gods knowing G&e, they hadn’t seen God yet, perhaps they believed through knowledge they would, as they would be as God is.

 

[grannymh]

The reason I was asking about the name of the tree was because we were referring to the tree as giving a experience of evil. The tree is named Good and Evil, so it should be refered to as giving the experience of both, not just evil.

Not sure where that tree is located. Adam knew about good and evil as soon as he got the job as chief gardener.

The tree must have been magic if by eating of the tree of life, it could provide immortality, then the knowledge of G&e was consummed when they ate the fruit!

Pardon me. It was God Who, in His love, provided immortality for His two mortal creatures. For further explanation, please refer to post 156.

I’m not sure how eating from any tree maintained their relationship with God.

The way Adam could maintain his relationship with God is to live in free submission (obedience) to God.

The ccc states that the tree is symbolic. It just provides an example of man disobeying God, and the consequence of that is death (spiritual). The O.S is no sin like we know sin to be, it was a break in divine union or part divine union for the first parents…

Please don’t leave me hanging. What was the tree symbolic of?

 

[simpleas]

How did they live in the Garden?

The answer is found in Genesis, chapter two. This answer is based on Genesis 1: 26-31. Enjoy reading.

Can we relate to a peaceful, non violent garden in which two fully intelligent human beings lived and loved each other?

Love is always possible.

Your answers are to simplistic! Just reading gen 1 :26-31 allows the imagination to picture a garden full of trees, animals and two humans enjoying all this peace and happiness to themself.

Love is possible I agree, in many forms. But love in the garden did not out weigh a decision to go against Gods command.

 

[grannymh]

Your answers are to simplistic! Just reading gen 1 :26-31 allows the imagination to picture a garden full of trees, animals and two humans enjoying all this peace and happiness to themself.

Sounds good to me. I’ll buy that.

Love is possible I agree, in many forms. But love in the garden did not out weigh a decision to go against Gods command.

Which love? Whose love? How given? To whom?

 

[grannymh]

So Adam has all that you say from the beginning of his existance, he sounds very intelligent, most highly intelligent people I know only grow in intelligence by aquiring knowledge. So this leaves me with two questions :

How could Adam being highly intelligent knowing Good and evil, prefer to trust someone other than his God, as he knows God is good and the evil will be the bad?

“Why” is not all that important. I can live with the fact that Adam freely chose his actions.

Did Adam need to experience Good and Evil in order to be perfected at some point?

I sincerely doubt that the experience of evil, aka Mortal Sin, is a necessary requirement
in order to enter heaven (perfected).

 

[simpleas]

Not sure where that tree is located. Adam knew about good and evil as soon as he got the job as chief gardener.

Pardon me. It was God Who, in His love, provided immortality for His two mortal creatures. For further explanation, please refer to post 156.

The way Adam could maintain his relationship with God is to live in free submission (obedience) to God.

Please don’t leave me hanging. What was the tree symbolic of?

A number of post’s back we referred to Adam having gained experiential knowledge of evil when he ate from the tree, I was asking why we didn’t also acknowledge that he gained experiential knowledge of Good also.

The magic comment I was just joking…

They lost immortality, but didn’t die physically only would start to die, but they died spiritually immediately as this was separation from God.

One way I’m thinking is, eating a fruit from a tree isn’t what gave them knowledge of G&E, I mean the actual eating and consumming of a fruit didn’t open their eyes, taking the “fruit” from the “tree” was the act that was disobedient, considering they had prior knowledge of what was good and evil.
However, knowing good and evil did not deter them, even knowing they would die and all their decendents too was not enough to prevent them from wanting to “know” more.

Yada - to know- is new to me, I never knew this word before.

 

[simpleas]

Sounds good to me. I’ll buy that.

Which love? Whose love? How given? To whom?

Love of God, Human, Animals, all of creation, which was meant to be given back to God (love) but the first two people thought better of this it seems…

 

[simpleas]

“Why” is not all that important. I can live with the fact that Adam freely chose his actions.

I sincerely doubt that the experience of evil, aka Mortal Sin, is a necessary requirement
in order to enter heaven (perfected).

Why then did God place the tree there for Adam to choose knowing he would choose unwisely? Adam had to make a decision for himself, eve and the rest of creation and he made the wrong choice! One man gets to decided what will become of the whole of a good creation.
I still don’t think that we need to experience evil to know it, but this is what happen to the first humans, its not like its the other way around, that they had experienced what evil was(because no evil existed in the garden) and then continued to scorn their creator anyway.

We see and know what evil is in the world now because of O.S, and mans own choice to decided what he whats for himself and the rest of creation regardless of anyone else. We can then choose Good or Evil.

 

[wmw]

Whereas there must have been an Adam and Eve and they had to choose to commit a first sin and be part of the 23 total points the church has declared as to the truth of the first chapters if not the literal meaning, but I’m of the option that the trees are symbolic and symbolic things are there to teach us as well, maybe more, than the literal history.

Eating Christ brings immortal life; so, the Tree of life is Jesus as He hangs on the tree of the cross.

The strange name of the tree of good and evil tells of it’s symbolic meaning which is to be taken as a way to choose a world that will be a mix of good and evil.

The story is given special meaning to the culture of their time from the writers who choose the apple as the fruit of the tree of good and evil. The apple was one of the highest sought luxury foods of Egypt from where they escaped. Many Jewish slaves had to transport apples from far up river and were forbidden for them to eat them.

 

[fhansen]

A basic question is this: Could Adam learn, could he improve, could he grow, could he become more perfect/perfected? If so then he wasn’t necessarily perfect in knowledge or wisdom to begin with in Eden. Quite intelligent, quite knowledgeable, but imperfect in these and other areas relative to God. Our wills are perfected and our justice increased to the extent that we will to obey God. The difference between Jesus, as man, and Adam, is that Jesus always obeyed the Father’s will-and even He was said to have grown in wisdom and stature. Adam apparently thought he already knew it all-but didn’t.

 

[wmw]

A basic question is this: Could Adam learn, could he improve, could he grow, could he become more perfect/perfected? If so then he wasn’t necessarily perfect in knowledge or wisdom to begin with in Eden. Quite intelligent, quite knowledgeable, but imperfect in these and other areas relative to God. Our wills are perfected and our justice increased to the extent that we will to obey God. The difference between Jesus, as man, and Adam, is that Jesus always obeyed the Father’s will-and even He was said to have grown in wisdom and stature. Adam apparently thought he already knew it all-but didn’t.

I had to look through the haze of thinking that what you are talking about is a short coming of Adam’s knowledge and intelligence. Then in your sentence giving the contrast of Jesus growing in wisdom it struck me. The difference between knowledge/intelligent and wisdom is right choices. Choices that involve the wholeness of our emotions, heart and head. To both know and proceed in the direction of love.

So, I hope this is what you are saying and even if not then I still read from your words that it’s not about the knowledge, but from whatever Adam did know then how he spun it to action in an unwise choice and not just in a dumb choice. For morality is never about knowledge or intelligence, but it’s about how we choose and with whatever the understanding we have at the time including to wait for a better time with more information.

Thank You.

 

[fhansen]

I had to look through the haze of thinking that what you are talking about is a short coming of Adam’s knowledge and intelligent. Then in your sentence giving the contrast of Jesus growing in wisdom it struck me. The difference between knowledge/intelligent and wisdom is right choices. Choices that involve the wholeness of our emotions, heart and head. To both know and proceed in the direction of love.

So, I hope this is what you are saying and even if not then I still read from your words that it’s not about the knowledge, but from whatever Adam did know then how he spun it to action in an unwise choice and not just in a dumb choice. For morality is never about knowledge or intelligent, but it’s about how we choose and with whatever the understanding we have at the time including to wait for a better time with more information.

Thank You.

Yes, I think. To the extent that we love God with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves we’re aligned with God’s will. And our choices, with the help of grace, is involved in that. Less hazy?

 

[wmw]

Good:thumbsup:

 

[grannymh]

The ccc states that the tree is symbolic. It just provides an example of man disobeying God, and the consequence of that is death (spiritual). The O.S is no sin like we know sin to be, it was a break in divine union or part divine union for the first parents…

What is essentially important is to state what the CCC said that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil really really symbolizes. Emphasis is mine
From CCC 396
The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

The tree is not about human’s knowing. It is about the difference between the Creator and the Creature.

And who knows everything which of course would have to include both good and evil? God or humans? Knows is way different from actions. One does not have to physically put a car together before one drives it. At least some women don’t.
God knows how to put the universe together so that humans can live there. Did Adam know the same thing? Could Adam want to know how to put the universe together so he would not have to obey the real God? Moral obedience to God can curb one’s actions.

Can we deny that God knows what happens when a creature wants to be god-like and know everything; for example, how to alter the universe so that it conforms to human desires. No rain on the weekends. We could say that Adam wanted God’s knowledge which would mean that Adam would be all powerful. Then Adam would not have to obey his Maker.
As the last sentence of CCC 396 says.
Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

 

[simpleas]

What is essentially important is to state what the CCC said that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil really really symbolizes. Emphasis is mine
From CCC 396
The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

The tree is not about human’s knowing. It is about the difference between the Creator and the Creature.

And who knows everything which of course would have to include both good and evil? God or humans? Knows is way different from actions. One does not have to physically put a car together before one drives it. At least some women don’t.
God knows how to put the universe together so that humans can live there. Did Adam know the same thing? Could Adam want to know how to put the universe together so he would not have to obey the real God? Moral obedience to God can curb one’s actions.

Can we deny that God knows what happens when a creature wants to be god-like and know everything; for example, how to alter the universe so that it conforms to human desires. No rain on the weekends. We could say that Adam wanted God’s knowledge which would mean that Adam would be all powerful. Then Adam would not have to obey his Maker.
As the last sentence of CCC 396 says.
Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

No but we need to know how to operate a car in order to drive it safely.

Adam was told he would be like God knowing Good and Evil, so this must have included the whole works of how God created the whole universe too, and not just what was a good and bad thing to live as a human should? He wasn’t told he would be God and therefore not have to obey him anymore, in fact if he walked with God, God was his only teacher and who doesn’t want to be like their teacher (favourite person who a person would look up to). He was told he would be like God.

:whacky: my brain is fried…

 

[grannymh]

No but we need to know how to operate a car in order to drive it safely.

In human nature, the instructions about how to operate safely is called a conscience.

Adam was told he would be like God knowing Good and Evil, so this must have included the whole works of how God created the whole universe too, and not just what was a good and bad thing to live as a human should?

True. The point is that Adam would be like God, that is, his infinite “knowledge” and subsequently his power would make him equal to God. There can only be one God!
Because there can be only one God, the would-be imitator would lose.

He wasn’t told he would be God and therefore not have to obey him anymore, in fact if he walked with God, God was his only teacher and who doesn’t want to be like their teacher (favourite person who a person would look up to). He was told he would be like God.

The teacher/student relationship is not the same as the Creator/creature relationship. Unless the teacher is God. Then there is definitely the difference between God the Creator and Adam the creature.

The only way I can explain the difference which necessarily leads to obedience (submission) is to quote the CCC.
From CCC 396
**396 **God created man in His image and established him in His friendship. A spiritual creature, man can live this friendship only in free submission to God.
:whacky:
my brain is fried…

Being older than dirt, I can’t remember where I put my brain. Probably next to my lost keys.
:whacky::whacky:

 

[fhansen]

What is essentially important is to state what the CCC said that the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil really really symbolizes. Emphasis is mine
From CCC 396
The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

The tree is not about human’s knowing. It is about the difference between the Creator and the Creature.

Granny, how does the tree symbolically evoke the insurmountable limits…? The answer is simply that there were consequences to eating of its fruit, to disobedience of created to his Creator IOW. Those consequences amounted to a radical change in man and his world, in his experience. The knowledge that they would gain would include the fact that no longer would the reality of evil be simply warned about by an internal or external law; now it would literally be known, not only known about, but known, by experience.

Did you look up the term “yada” yet? We can grow in our own understanding, if we’re willing. Now, do you think this may have held true for Adam also? Do you think Adam could’ve grown in wisdom in Eden? Or do you think It was incumbent upon God for some reason to make Adam absolutely perfect or incapable of error? Could there be degrees of culpability for Gods creation, with Adam extremely culpable, considering the gifts that he was given?

 

[wmw]

From CCC 396
The “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” symbolically evokes the insurmountable limits that man, being a creature, must freely recognize and respect with trust. Man is dependent on his Creator, and subject to the laws of creation and to the moral norms that govern the use of freedom.

Of Course, this is true; so, I’m not disagreeing, but it evokes this by taking on the false claim of the serpent that gaining evil or separation from God will make you “like God”. I don’t think that Eve would be fooled into thinking all knowledge would be bestowed on them, but yes she was fooled that a good knowledge was to be gained. Adam’s sin was the greater because he was not fooled at all. To him the choice was separation from God or separation from Eve.