Adam. Man or Myth?

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Humani Generis
Pope Pius XII
You missed my next post #72

*People seem to be relying on the following:

“When, however, there is question of another conjectural opinion, namely polygenism, the children of the Church by no means enjoy such liberty. For the faithful cannot embrace that opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take their origin through natural generation from him as from the first parents of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents. Now, it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the teaching authority of the Church proposed with regard to original sin which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam in which through generation is passed onto all and is in everyone as his own” (Humani Generis 37).*

Here’s the problem I have though. The source is a papal encyclical. That isn’t in itself a problem, it’s just that my understanding is that unless the prounouncement meets the conditions of infallibility, Pope Pius XII was only teaching in his capacity as a Doctor of the Church. It doesn’t seem to meet the standard of a dogmatic decree. Any thoughts here?

Isn’t this just the opinion of Pope Pius?
 
Both of you are correct in trying to nail down what is information.

I would propose that by information we speak in terms of the instructional language of DNA.

In a mutation does the instructional language get more complex or less complex?
Huh, how much biochemistry do you know?

I do not know what “instructional language” is, but I will attempt to define it and say no.

Obviously, the “message” in DNA really do not do anything on its own. It is supposed to be “read”. Usually the DNA will not fold into a catalytically active molecule (the exceptions will be refered to as deoxyribozymes).

First, the message is read by RNA polymerase (RNA polymerase II in eukaryotes), usually a transcription factor is required for this to help the polymerase form a stable complex with DNA.

[Too lazy to add enormous amount of detail… so I’ll try to be brief]

RNA polymerase does this by using Watson-Crick base pairing (and presumably other mechanisms such as exonucleolytic proofreading (the mechanism reported in this paper on T. Aqaticus, the same organism where Taq DNA polymerase used in PCR is derived from, is quite different from DNA polymerase’s mechanism.) and using the minor groove electrons) while using nucleoside 5’ triphosphate substrates.

Next, the RNA is then spliced (if it is spliced), and capped (5’ end) and added a polyadenylate tail (3’ end) in eukaryotic organisms. The RNA might be able to splice itself and if it is able to do that we could call this transcript [insert name for catalytic RNA here].

Let’s forgot about the RNA transcript of the DNA for a while. Amino acyl tRNA synthetases catalyze these reactions:

amino acid + ATP —(Aminoacyl tRNA synthetase)—> amino acid-AMP (an amino acid adenylate) + PPi (inorganic pyrophosphate)

and

aa-AMP + tRNA -----(Aminoacyl tRNA synthetase)—> aminoacid-tRNA (an amino acid attached to the 3’ end of the tRNA) and AMP

ATP is used because forming a peptide bond ain’t a free lunch (i.e. the reaction requires a positive Gibbs free energy change).

Of course, a aminoacyl tRNA synthetase must be able to distinguish between the “correct” amino acid and tRNA. Attaching the wrong amino acid to the tRNA has detrimental consequences. However, the free energy of binding the correct substrate when compared to binding the incorrect amino acid does not ensure accuracy. This is corrected by some aminoacyl tRNA synthetases by having an additional site that hydrolysizes the incorrect aa-AMP complex or the ester linkage on the aa-tRNA complex.

Returning our transcript, the “start codon”, 5’ AUG 3’ , initiate the assembly of the ribosome. The tRNAs then read the transcript and the ribosome, a [insert term for a catalytic RNA molecule here], synthesizes a protein from the amino-carboxyl end. The protein then folds (sometimes with the assistence of a chaperone) after it is synthesized. Protein folding is quite complex but involved the interaction of hydrophobic residues, formation of salt bridges, and hydrogen bonding. Also covalent dicysteine linkages are involved giving the tertiary structure.

Long story short the instructional language is not really a language in the usual sense, it is simply amino acid residues in various enzymes interacting with its substrates. Any anthropomorphization is merely a pedagogical device.

To answer the question, it seems unlikely that the instructional language will change with a single mutation: DNA and RNA polymerases will still copy nucleic acids using Watson-Crick pairing, aminoacyl tRNA synthetases will be able to discern the incorrect and the correct tRNAs and amino acids, the ribosome will synthesize proteins using tRNAs, etc. Single mutations do affect this with detrimental consequences in the context of fidelity and phenotype, but these mutations are unable to profoundly affect the “instructional language”.

If I should source something, just ask me too… I have some interesting (“interesting” is a subjective word) papers on my computer to support these statements.
 
Human Generis must be taken together with constant church teaching. No syncretism is allowed.
It’s not? :confused:

Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your use of the word.

I’m not proposing the merger of belief systems. I’m just trying to reconcile what I know with what I’ve been taught.

If there is a disconnect I’m perfectly willing to say that it is beyond me (or us). I don’t see any problem with an attempt.
 
I’m not proposing the merger of belief systems. I’m just trying to reconcile what I know with what I’ve been taught.

If there is a disconnect I’m perfectly willing to say that it is beyond me (or us). I don’t see any problem with an attempt.
We are starting to agree more often. 🙂
 
The evolution I was taught in High School was this:

Beginning:
Everything including the Big Bang happened completely by random chance. Any statistician would calculate those odds near impossible to 1. It should also be noted many cosmologists no longer accept the whoops it just happened theory.

Origins of Life:

Life began as a collection of random amino acids which came together all by themselves and formed the first single cell life form. Scientists have tirelessly tried to prove that theory in vain. They’ve tried every stimulus known to convince new life to form from nothing…hasn’t worked.

Diversity of life:

Each new species was a “good” mutation from its predecessor. This would be the most plausable part of evolution, although it is still not proven to be true.

Without assistance, wild diversity within species is not the norm.

For instance:

The dog for instance has had man’s direct influence over its breeding. That influence has created breeds that themselves could also be mistaken for different species if a toy poodle and a great dane were found in the fossil record. The diversity was always there in Dog’s gene pool but needed man to produce its wide variety. However, no amount of breeding has produced another species incapable of breeding with a dog. Without someone being able to directly manipulate genes intelligently, its doubtful any new species would ever result.
I recommend that you purchase Biology. It is in its 7th edition (by Campbell and Reece) and I still use it (5th edition) when I need to look something up. It will clear up any confusion you have about evolution.

Regarding the origin of the universe, I do not know. But if Andrei Linde is correct, the probability of this universe forming is 1. Also if Andrei Linde is correct, you might as well kiss goodbye to Christianity.

Well, the origin of life, my personal interest. I too do not know, and I fervently want to know the answer to this. All I can say is that our knowledge is incomplete and scientific investigation will illuminate an answer.

I do not know what exactly is a “good” mutation. Of course, mutations do have detrimental effects on the fitness of an organism. We will define fitness as it compatibility with the niche of that organism and its ability to pass on its genetic information to its progeny. Mutations allow organisms to adapt to new niches, and speciation is caused when these mutations cause reproductive isolation in a population of organisms. Of course, other factors cause reproductive isolation such as the lifestyle of a population of organisms and geographical barriers.
 
Regarding the origin of the universe, I do not know. But if Andrei Linde is correct, the probability of this universe forming is 1. Also if Andrei Linde is correct, you might as well kiss goodbye to Christianity.

.
You mean to say if Andrei is correct Jesus did not live and die?
 
You mean to say if Andrei is correct Jesus did not live and die?
I meant any chance of Christianity being correct. I believe we can say the same if I said “If Earl Doherty is correct, you might as well kiss goodbye to Christianity.” I’ll leave it up to you to look up Earl Doherty.

I most certainly do not believe in the idea that Jesus was only a fictional character. Indeed many aspects of Jesus are fictional, but he was based off of a real person.

I did not refer to the resurrection of Jesus. I, of course, do not believe it happened. I will convey my own beliefs on the epistemology on the resurrection of Jesus here: I believe it cannot be explored through empiricism. For example, I know of no way of how it can be falsified in a Popperian fashion. Also, let’s assume the resurrection did actually happen. How am I going to believe in it based on the testimony of people how saw Jesus resurrected. This will be suceptable to Occam’s razor; if we ask the question “What happened? A resurrection or the disciples conveying (intentionally or unintentionally) a mistruth?” Occam’s razor will always slice the former, even if it is correct. The latter assumes that the laws of nature did not take an exception to Jesus’ body and the disciples were deluded (this is a plausible assumption as humans do experience delusions such as thinking they were abducted by UFOs), in contrast to the resurrection scenario, which does not involve plausible assumptions (e.g. Jesus was divine man).

Returning to Andrei Linde, visit his webpage and read this to figure out what his ideas are. They have theological consequences though. It destroys the idea of a God who created our universe for the purpose of generating humanity. I am not saying Professor Linde is correct though, but you have to consider the possibility that he is.
 
I meant any chance of Christianity being correct. I believe we can say the same if I said “If Earl Doherty is correct, you might as well kiss goodbye to Christianity.” I’ll leave it up to you to look up Earl Doherty.

I most certainly do not believe in the idea that Jesus was only a fictional character. Indeed many aspects of Jesus are fictional, but he was based off of a real person.

I did not refer to the resurrection of Jesus. I, of course, do not believe it happened. I will convey my own beliefs on the epistemology on the resurrection of Jesus here: I believe it cannot be explored through empiricism. For example, I know of no way of how it can be falsified in a Popperian fashion. Also, let’s assume the resurrection did actually happen. How am I going to believe in it based on the testimony of people how saw Jesus resurrected. This will be suceptable to Occam’s razor; if we ask the question “What happened? A resurrection or the disciples conveying (intentionally or unintentionally) a mistruth?” Occam’s razor will always slice the former, even if it is correct. The latter assumes that the laws of nature did not take an exception to Jesus’ body and the disciples were deluded (this is a plausible assumption as humans do experience delusions such as thinking they were abducted by UFOs), in contrast to the resurrection scenario, which does not involve plausible assumptions (e.g. Jesus was divine man).

Returning to Andrei Linde, visit his webpage and read this to figure out what his ideas are. They have theological consequences though. It destroys the idea of a God who created our universe for the purpose of generating humanity. I am not saying Professor Linde is correct though, but you have to consider the possibility that he is.
Ouch. If Andrei is correct then Jesus is a liar. So know I have to decide on Andrei or Jesus. Based on what I know I will stick with Jesus.
 
Ouch. If Andrei is correct then Jesus is a liar. So know I have to decide on Andrei or Jesus. Based on what I know I will stick with Jesus.
Who knows if Jesus lied or not? Maybe he told mistruths, not intentionally though. How do you know that the Bible contains Jesus’ words? He did not write it, it was written transcript of storys (oral traditions) about Jesus. Maybe those storys had the lies, but Jesus was not involved in the actually lying, or conveying of mistruths.
 
Who knows if Jesus lied or not? Maybe he told mistruths, not intentionally though. How do you know that the Bible contains Jesus’ words? He did not write it, it was written transcript of storys (oral traditions) about Jesus. Maybe those storys had the lies, but Jesus was not involved in the actually lying, or conveying of mistruths.
Then He definitely could not be God because there a couple of things God cannot do. He cannot deceive or be deceived.

So if He deceived He could not be the Son of God.

Now we have the evidence of the Resurrection. Over 500 eyewitnesses. So all the witnesses were hoaxed too. The oral Tradition, the eyewitnesses, the manuscripts, a billion people all were duped. :eek:
 
Then He definitely could not be God because there a couple of things God cannot do. He cannot deceive or be deceived.

So if He deceived He could not be the Son of God.

Now we have the evidence of the Resurrection. Over 500 eyewitnesses. So all the witnesses were hoaxed too. The oral Tradition, the eyewitnesses, the manuscripts, a billion people all were duped. :eek:
Yes, the were all victims of mistruth…

It is plausible to say that they were all deceived. For example, many people deny common descent despite a plethora of evidence supporting it. Maybe they did not see him, but they were merely believers. Paul was merely writing down the information he got from other people.
 
Yes, the were all victims of mistruth…

It is plausible to say that they were all deceived. For example, many people deny common descent despite a plethora of evidence supporting it. Maybe they did not see him, but they were merely believers. Paul was merely writing down the information he got from other people.
I am glad I was not a Apostle then. I would have been martyred even after given the chance to denounce Jesus. Something very powerful was at work here, for so many to give up their lives for the belief in a mere man, a liar at that.
 
I am glad I was not a Apostle then. I would have been martyred even after given the chance to denounce Jesus. Something very powerful was at work here, for so many to give up their lives for the belief in a mere man, a liar at that.
Emphasis mine,

I never accused Jesus of malintent in this thread! It is much harder to find evidence for malintent.
 
But a good man cannot lie.
A good man can lie, but it depends on the intent. Lying to Nazis when you are housing Jewish people in your basement is not an example of malintent.

Let’s forget about this discussion of Jesus’ integrity, I will ask something that is more relevant…
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buffalo:
Ouch. If Andrei is correct then Jesus is a liar. So know I have to decide on Andrei or Jesus. Based on what I know I will stick with Jesus.
“What does Jesus or you know about cosmology that can be scientifically verified that Andrei Linde does not know?”
 
A good man can lie, but it depends on the intent. Lying to Nazis when you are housing Jewish people in your basement is not an example of malintent.

Let’s forget about this discussion of Jesus’ integrity, I will ask something that is more relevant…

“What does Jesus or you know about cosmology that can be scientifically verified that Andrei Linde does not know?”
Jesus knows science beyond that of our limited 5 senses.
 
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