Adam, the Philosophy Professor

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Thank you for responding to my concern about the “sin of existence”.

I am very interested in the conversation between you and Nihilist. This is because “representation” and “symbolism” are second to reality according to Catholicism. In addition, “this innate desire for Eden where we can exist in our original state” is not part of practical Catholicism. It is simply a symbolic reason which, in fact, distorts the purpose(s) of the Garden of Eden per Catholic teaching. Granted that the original state of Adam, which included the amazing gift of immortality, is very appealing. However, human longing is actually for joy eternal in the presence of the Beatific Vision…which comes after life in the Garden.

After years of asking – what is it that the “symbol” is symbolizing? I now have some beginning answers which can be compared to Catholic doctrines. Thank you sincerely.
And please, Nihilist and Balto continue so that I may continue to learn.
I suggest the fundamental symbolism is the idea of a ‘return to origins’. At the deepest level, this is God- in the sense that our souls came from God and are destined to return to Him. The Garden of Eden symbolizes the Beatific Vision- using more tangible imagery. It is quite consistent with Catholic doctrine (although I it might be better to talk about ‘Catholic tradition’ than ‘Catholic doctrine’, since the Church defined very little on the ultimate state of humanity- other than that it is eternal blessedness with God)

The image of the Garden identifies it as somehow the ‘original state’ (perhaps not literally) of the soul. Hence, the sense of Heaven (however that is understood) as being a ‘homeland’, and this life as a pilgrimage or exile.
 
Sorry- I overlooked your question. I did not mean to seem to ignore it.

“Sin of existence” is the ‘guilt’ which necessarily pertains to human existence. That is, not a personal guilt, but like Original Sin. Yes, the Original Sin is removed in baptism, but its consequences (suffering, death, the tendency to personal sin) all continue.

This idea, of some kind of original sin, is retained also by otherwise atheistic philosophers like Sartre and Heidegger. I suppose that what it comes down to is were born into a particular narrative and human state which is imperfect, and our very selves are born with various imperfections- as if, to paraphrase the Psalm, we are born into guilt. Not that we have done anything personally wrong…

It’s exactly the same reality as Original Sin.
The reality of Original Sin is an action.

It is impossible that a symbol or an explanation is exactly the same reality as an individual human action in a different time and space. Even the individual physical brain is not interchangeable with the individual action of another individual human living and dying in the past.

A human person, created in the image of God (as Professor Adam knew) is an unique being at once corporeal and spiritual. (Information source. CCC 362-366)

You are correct that the consequences of the one and only Original Sin are suffering, [bodily] death, and the tendency to personal sin. Because of the unique composition of human nature, the whole human nature suffered the effects of Adam’s free choice to shatter humanity’s friendship state with the Creator.

Guilt is usually described as a personal emotion of varying degrees. Guilt does pertain to human existence, but it is not a separate existence, that is, guilt does not walk about talking on a cell phone. I exist. At least that is what I learned when looking in the mirror in space and time. I flat out refuse to be the existence of sin even though I have committed sins. My sins and the subsequent guilt may have affected my decomposing anatomy, but they are not the very same as my blood and guts, skin and bones existence.

What I see happening is that philosophers needed to explain inner guilt. Descartes gave philosophers the permission to separate the spiritual principle from the material principle. Over time, this separation continued its path eventually known as Cartesian extreme dualism. My ancient philosophy professor, not Professor Adam, demonstrated that some of the principles of Descartes eventually seeded Communism.

A few years ago, I read a wonderful paper by a British defender of the animal right to decent care and protection. He thought that the assumption that there was no spiritual principle (feelings) in an animal, would eventually lead to ignoring the inherent value or nature of animals. While animals do not have a rational spiritual soul the same as humans, they are highly sentient. And thus, they deserve our respect…something philosophically similar to the respect that humans deserve because of the union of soul and body. (Information source for human’s spiritual soul. CCC 356-357; CCC 364-366)

How all of the above relates to inner guilt is the faulty reasoning that inner guilt is somehow part of the body’s formal physical existence which is somehow separate from the body’s spiritual principle. This kind of separation leads away from the real action of the real Adam which affected human nature per se. It also leads to downplaying the role of God as Creator and eventually it dismisses both God and our need for understanding our own spirituality.

In other words, the short story is that Original Sin did not become our sin of existence, but it did affect our original relationship with God because in Adam was the whole humankind “as one body of one man.”
(Information source. CCC 404; St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo 4, 1)

Over the centuries, the necessary existence of God moved away from its prominent position in human thinking. When we study the concepts of the first three chapters of Genesis, we discover that Professor Adam had no doubts about the existence of God. (Genesis 1:1) and thus his philosophy included human creature’s relationship with the Creator.

To truly understand human nature and its purpose on planet earth, one has to start at the beginning of human history.
 
I suggest the fundamental symbolism is the idea of a ‘return to origins’. At the deepest level, this is God- in the sense that our souls came from God and are destined to return to Him. The Garden of Eden symbolizes the Beatific Vision- using more tangible imagery. It is quite consistent with Catholic doctrine (although I it might be better to talk about ‘Catholic tradition’ than ‘Catholic doctrine’, since the Church defined very little on the ultimate state of humanity- other than that it is eternal blessedness with God)

The image of the Garden identifies it as somehow the ‘original state’ (perhaps not literally) of the soul. Hence, the sense of Heaven (however that is understood) as being a ‘homeland’, and this life as a pilgrimage or exile.
Yes, I think all of that is correct. But, if I may be so bold as to ask, why then do you label yourself a “nihilist?” Are you concerned that the heavenly state is not attainable?
 
Thank you for responding to my concern about the “sin of existence”.

I am very interested in the conversation between you and Nihilist. This is because “representation” and “symbolism” are second to reality according to Catholicism. In addition, “this innate desire for Eden where we can exist in our original state” is not part of practical Catholicism. It is simply a symbolic reason which, in fact, distorts the purpose(s) of the Garden of Eden per Catholic teaching. Granted that the original state of Adam, which included the amazing gift of immortality, is very appealing. However, human longing is actually for joy eternal in the presence of the Beatific Vision…which comes after life in the Garden.
Thank you for your kind words granny! Although I think I agree with what Nihilist wrote about how Eden symbolizes that state we once had where we were in union with God. I’m not sure if the Beatific Vision was part of what we lost, or if by getting to Heaven we’ll experience it for the first time.
After years of asking – what is it that the “symbol” is symbolizing? I now have some beginning answers which can be compared to Catholic doctrines. Thank you sincerely.
And please, Nihilist and Balto continue so that I may continue to learn.
Yeah, I was always wondering that too but yet for some strange reason I feel like I have received some insights into the symbolism of Adam, Eve, and Eden this past week. The funny thing is that modernists view the admission that the Garden of Eden has symbolic nature as some kind of win for them, like it’s an admission that it is nothing more than a cute little story. But the truth is that the symbolism makes it even more real that we could have possibly imagined otherwise. The story is supposed to get you to realize the deeper spiritual truth about the fallen nature of humanity and the possibility for redemption. If God had tried to explain the way it really was literally, I don’t think any human mind would understand it, if it is even possible to convey something like that through human language at all.
 
To truly understand human nature and its purpose on planet earth, one has to start at the beginning of human history.
Yes, you hit the nail right on the head. That’s the problem with most modern psychologists and philosophers. They start with the fallen state and think that’s the “real human nature” and just try to invent all sorts of ways of coping or ignoring the fallenness, since no human alone could ever solve that problem. I know Ven. Archbishop Sheen wrote on human psychology so I wonder if he touched on any of these issues. I had a book by him on it but I let a friend borrow it and he still hasn’t returned it. That was almost a year ago… :dts:
 
Yes, you hit the nail right on the head. That’s the problem with most modern psychologists and philosophers. They start with the fallen state and think that’s the “real human nature” and just try to invent all sorts of ways of coping or ignoring the fallenness, since no human alone could ever solve that problem. I know Ven. Archbishop Sheen wrote on human psychology so I wonder if he touched on any of these issues. I had a book by him on it but I let a friend borrow it and he still hasn’t returned it. That was almost a year ago… :dts:
I may have hit the nail right on the head, but there have been many times when I hit my thumb.:sad_yes:

Consequently, I have spent time comparing the first three chapters of Genesis with Catholic doctrines, with symbolism, with contemporary life, and with natural science. I still have more research to do. :eek: I am hoping to find Professor Adam’s notes.

What I am trying to say is that at the moment, I am not sure of the best way to respond to your posts. In addition, there is a valid question about the Beatific Vision which could have a simple definition or which could be seen as the goal of all human nature, pre-Fall, post-Fall and no-Fall.

Could you kindly give me a hint where I should start my respnse?
 
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Thank you for your kind words granny! Although I think I agree with what Nihilist wrote about how Eden symbolizes that state we once had where we were in union with God. I’m not sure if the Beatific Vision was part of what we lost, or if by getting to Heaven we’ll experience it for the first time.
That I’m aware of, few Catholic theologians have held that Adam & Eve experienced the BV in Eden, and I’ve spent a fair enough amount of time looking for them in the past. Aquinas taught that, while A&E knew God more directly or immediately than we do now, they nonetheless did not see Him “face to face” as per the Beatific Vision. If they had, their desires/happiness should’ve been completely fulfilled; they’d have been captivated, enthralled; nothing could’ve interrupted their gaze let alone caused them to disobey.
 
It is stated that " No one can see the Face of God and live" The soul would leave the body in ecstacy. It is also said that when saints went into ecstacy, it was by divine power that sustained their mortal life.
 
Over the centuries, the necessary existence of God moved away from its prominent position in human thinking. When we study the concepts of the first three chapters of Genesis, we discover that Professor Adam had no doubts about the existence of God. (Genesis 1:1) and thus his philosophy included human creature’s relationship with the Creator.
Yes, there was no doubt that God exists. But I think maybe they were not so fully informed about the nature of God as they should have been … namely, that God is Supreme, and there can be no other God. The Serpent tempted them with just that idea, so they did not seem to understand that there can be only one God. In *The Road Less Traveled *Dr. Scott Peck talks about entropy (laziness) as the psychological defect that does all of us in. We do not make the effort to understand what we should make the effort to understand. Peck points out that when the Serpent said that Eve and Adam could become as God if they ate the apple, they did not go to God and ask if that was true or false. That is, they did not make the effort to find the truth from their own Creator rather than the Snake in the Grass.

This I think is the reason why people do not find God in their lives. Entropy. They are too lazy to look for him … or they think they will be more comfortable not finding him than finding him. There is such a thing as wallowing in ignorance. We all know people in that category … including some Christians.
 
Yes, there was no doubt that God exists. But I think maybe they were not so fully informed about the nature of God as they should have been … namely, that God is Supreme, and there can be no other God. The Serpent tempted them with just that idea, so they did not seem to understand that there can be only one God. In *The Road Less Traveled *Dr. Scott Peck talks about entropy (laziness) as the psychological defect that does all of us in. We do not make the effort to understand what we should make the effort to understand. Peck points out that when the Serpent said that Eve and Adam could become as God if they ate the apple, they did not go to God and ask if that was true or false. That is, they did not make the effort to find the truth from their own Creator rather than the Snake in the Grass.

This I think is the reason why people do not find God in their lives. Entropy. They are too lazy to look for him … or they think they will be more comfortable not finding him than finding him. There is such a thing as wallowing in ignorance. We all know people in that category … including some Christians.
Information source. Genesis 1: 26-31; Genesis 2: 15-17; Genesis 3: 1-3; CCC 396; CCC 398; and *CCC *1730.
👍

Links to Catholic teachings

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/catechism/catechism-of-the-catholic-church/

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
 
God speaking to Moses: Ex:33: 20 “But My Face you can not see for no man sees me and still lives”
 
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That I’m aware of, few Catholic theologians have held that Adam & Eve experienced the BV in Eden, and I’ve spent a fair enough amount of time looking for them in the past. Aquinas taught that, while A&E knew God more directly or immediately than we do now, they nonetheless did not see Him “face to face” as per the Beatific Vision. If they had, their desires/happiness should’ve been completely fulfilled; they’d have been captivated, enthralled; nothing could’ve interrupted their gaze let alone caused them to disobey.
Yeah, I suppose that makes the most sense. Aquinas is always good to turn to in situations like these.
 
Apples are bad news. Therefore, go Android. 😃

Seriously though, I think his big teaching is, “If you have to choose between believing what God tells you or what another person tells you (even if that person is your spouse)…go with God. It’ll work out better.”
 
I guess wherever you want to start.
Comment from post 25.
“Although I think I agree with what Nihilist wrote about how Eden symbolizes that state we once had where we were in union with God. I’m not sure if the Beatific Vision was part of what we lost, or if by getting to Heaven we’ll experience it for the first time.”

The Beatific Vision is definitely what we experience in heaven. (CCC Glossary, Beatific Vision, page 867) Yet, after reading the above comment from post 25, I kept wondering if the Beatific Vision was really part of what we lost because in Adam is all humankind “as one body of one man.” (Information source. CCC 404) Then there is this comment. Please pardon me for taking it out of context.
“But the truth is that the symbolism makes it even more real that we could have possibly imagined otherwise. The story is supposed to get you to realize the deeper spiritual truth about the fallen nature of humanity and the possibility for redemption.”
Would it be proper to change the last word “redemption” to the Beatific Vision? To me, that change is logical because of Genesis 1: 26-27. Yet, where is the reference to the Beatific Vision? Perhaps I was napping when Professor Adam was teaching about the Beatific Vision.

Then there is this proposed solution at the end of post 25.
If God had tried to explain the way it really was literally, I don’t think any human mind would understand it, if it is even possible to convey something like that through human language at all.

Is this “solution” a greater truth than what I initially thought? If yes, then we can begin to understand why Adam is real as the father of all humanity.

Coincidentally, there is this thread about the Beatific Vision in the Spirituality Forum.
“What a Great Catholic Theologian Said about the Beatific Vision of God in Heaven”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=907675

This thread has a link to more information about the Beatific Vision than I can read in a month of Sundays. catholictreasury.info/books/everlasting_life/ev32.php

Finally, when I read any description of Adam’s nature after he committed the original shattering of humanity’s relationship with Divinity, I wonder if the description includes information about Adam’s basic human nature which basically remained. If yes …
 
The Beatific Vision is definitely what we experience in heaven. (CCC Glossary, Beatific Vision, page 867) Yet, after reading the above comment from post 25, I kept wondering if the Beatific Vision was really part of what we lost because in Adam is all humankind “as one body of one man.” (Information source. CCC 404)
Yeah, that makes the most sense to me after reflecting on this a little more. It seems unlikely that if Adam truly experienced the Beatific Vision that he would have fallen into sin.
Would it be proper to change the last word “redemption” to the Beatific Vision? To me, that change is logical because of Genesis 1: 26-27. Yet, where is the reference to the Beatific Vision? Perhaps I was napping when Professor Adam was teaching about the Beatific Vision.
Yes, I think that would be correct, since redemption technically refers to Christ’s sacrifice on the cross which makes it possible for our human nature to attain salvation (only through God’s offering of grace of course). I misspoke. I should have said “salvation” or “Beatific Vision” as you correctly noted.
Is this “solution” a greater truth than what I initially thought? If yes, then we can begin to understand why Adam is real as the father of all humanity.

Coincidentally, there is this thread about the Beatific Vision in the Spirituality Forum.
“What a Great Catholic Theologian Said about the Beatific Vision of God in Heaven”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=907675

This thread has a link to more information about the Beatific Vision than I can read in a month of Sundays. catholictreasury.info/books/everlasting_life/ev32.php

Finally, when I read any description of Adam’s nature after he committed the original shattering of humanity’s relationship with Divinity, I wonder if the description includes information about Adam’s basic human nature which basically remained. If yes …
Thank you for the links. I will have to check them out more fully when I have more time. As always, your wisdom and insights are quite profound and your efforts are much appreciated by me at least!
 
Yeah, that makes the most sense to me after reflecting on this a little more. It seems unlikely that if Adam truly experienced the Beatific Vision that he would have fallen into sin.

Yes, I think that would be correct, since redemption technically refers to Christ’s sacrifice on the cross which makes it possible for our human nature to attain salvation (only through God’s offering of grace of course). I misspoke. I should have said “salvation” or “Beatific Vision” as you correctly noted.

Thank you for the links. I will have to check them out more fully when I have more time. As always, your wisdom and insights are quite profound and your efforts are much appreciated by me at least!
In addition to my :blushing: response to post 37,
the concept of the Beatific Vision as the goal of Adam keeps rolling around in the space between my ears. We all understand that heaven is our goal so it must have been the goal of our first procreating ancestors. Right? Right!

Skip to the other side of the coin. According to recent science, there are all kinds of ancient creatures known as hominins. Note: Worldwide paleoanthropologists have finally decided that hominin is the correct term for the lineage which eventually ends in the human species.

We are familiar with the charts which describe the various hominin species, especially the lovable Neanderthals which are now the media’s darling. Ever notice the number of years given for each species before their final extinction? Ever notice that the only extant hominin species is the human one? Ever notice that the approximate date of the emergence of a different species is in billions or thousands of years? Ever notice that Professor Adam’s birth date is not given in approximately billions or thousands of years going backwards? His arrival on the environmental scene is described as an individual singular event, which by definition would require a specific moment in time.

Finally, ever notice that the primary goal of ancient hominin creatures is the survival of their species on planet earth. Like basic philosophy, the goal of human creatures is connected to the true essence of their species which is described in Genesis 1:26-27.

Fortunately, for me – maybe unfortunately for readers who may want answers handed to them without effort on their part – all of the above questions can provide sound answers without the need to be scientists. These answers will eventually lead to the heart of the matter which is the philosophical difference between all varieties of animal species, the only extant hominin species that is peerless among all creatures, and the specific Beatific Vision.
 
Re-reading post 38, I noticed that I used “ever notice …?” quite often. Now I really feel like Adam, the Philosophy Professor because all he could do is notice. There were no scientific manuals, no Google on mobile devices, and no smart granny to tell Adam what is what. For him, both the scientific method and the philosophical method would have the same first principle – “Observe without prejudice.”

Can you imagine how Adam must have felt, finding himself in the middle of a rather wild garden since there was no previous gardener? Not only that, but there was this Spiritual Being, not like him in size and shape, Who was giving him orders about cultivating and caring for this unique garden. And then, there were the instructions about what he could eat and not eat. At that point, Adam most likely felt hungry. Scientifically, one can reason that Professor Adam observed that he had a material anatomy which needed nourishment in order to live. Philosophically, one can reason that Professor Adam observed that the Spiritual Being Who was with him did not have a limited human nature such as his own.

In my humble observation, I consider the author of the first three chapters of Genesis as being more philosophical than scientific. Also, the author had 20-20-hindsight about the differences between humans and God. Adam may not have immediately figured out one of those strange sounding scientific names for God Who was being observed as one Who was not only in charge of the garden, but also was in charge of Adam. However, being innately curious like his offspring scientists, Adam understood the difference between his nature and the super-natural God Who was his Creator. In this beginning of the story, Adam may not have received his philosophy Ph.D. degree; yet, he figured out that he did not create himself. If he had the power to create, Adam, being naturally intelligent, would have first created a bevy of gardeners to do his work while he had a cool one from the nearby microbrewery.

Returning to Professor Adam’s biography, we find that God, on a sunny day, found Adam being grumpy. God took one look at the cloud-filled face of Adam and observed that it was not good for him to be alone. This would also turn into an opportunity to demonstrate philosophical species. Long run this understanding would be necessary for those who would be researching the intelligence of Border Collies and Apes.
**Sidebar: The “Significance of Recent Ape-Language Studies” is Chapter Five in the book, Origin of the Human Species, Expanded Third Edition by Dr. Dennis Bonnette. Those readers who appreciate both Catholic teachings *and *natural science will both learn and enjoy the book’s Appendix One: The Myth of the “Myth” of Adam and Eve.

Seeing the loneliness of Adam, God formed various animals and birds and brought them to Adam. Interestingly, Adam named these animals which would be necessary so that his progeny living on both sides of the pond could discuss the animals’ characteristics without having them in the backyard. Even more interesting, philosophically, Adam identified this whole group of different scientific-type material/physical species as one natural species which could not form a family unit with his own rather different natural species. We all know what happened when Eve, the love of Adam’s life, appeared.
 
Adam was complaining to God about his loneliness, and God said “Well I think I can remedy that but it might cost you an arm and a leg,” and Adam said " What can I get for a rib?" Had to say it, LoL 😃
 
What can a simple gardener, in the Garden of Eden, teach the smart phone generation?

Sometimes a question is more significant than the answer. 😃

Blessings,
granny
Curiosity killed the cat - and ruined the human race.😃

Linus2nd
 
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