Addressing absurdity of divorced & remarried couples receiving communion

[JoeShlabotnik]

It used to anger me, the hypocrisy exhibited by many Catholics. But then it came to me that I am not without sin.
I pray for all to go to confession, receive absolution, say your penance, and then to commune with Christ at Mass.
May we all strive to become better Catholics!

 

[acanonlawyer]

The only real place that has a functional tribunal system to handle annulments is the United States.

“Functional” can be a relative term. For the most part, I would say that USA diocesan tribunals have the staff that is needed to “function”, at least in terms of processing cases from start to finish in a more or less timely manner.

Part of what Amoris Laetitia did was use the tribunal model from the US for other countries.

I’m trying to think of how this could be accurate and am not coming up with anything. Maybe you are referring to the nullity trial procedural changes the Pope initiated in his document Mitis iudex, from August of 2015, not Amoris laetitia. Even so, the changes that came about due to Mitis iudex really didn’t come from US (name removed by moderator)ut.

Dan

 

[jack63]

“Functional” can be a relative term.

I agree completely that “functional” is a relative term.

In your opinion how are the US tribunals lacking? I’m genuinely curious…

As for your other point. I was under the impression that annulments were, at first, most common in the United States simply because the tribunals existed and were staffed, as you described. It is this model of simply having staffed tribunals is what is being copied by other countries. I didn’t mean to imply the US officials had direct (name removed by moderator)ut into Amoris Laetitia. I was more trying to imply that the US tribunal system showed that such a tribunal system “worked” and could “work” elsewhere. “Worked” is a relative term of course . Do I have my history of the tribunal system not right?

I’m not associated with any tribunal or anything. I’m learning here too.

 

[acanonlawyer]

Step two: understand that the internal forum solution is not new.

It’s not new but I don’t know if I would say that it is “old”, at least in this context. Also, it seems to me that it has been misunderstood and misused pretty much from the beginning (at least by some people, in some places)

Dan

 

[jack63]

Also, it seems to me that it has been misunderstood and misused pretty much from the beginning (at least by some people, in some places)

How are the internal forums misused?

 

[acanonlawyer]

In your opinion how are the US tribunals lacking? I’m genuinely curious…

All I will say is that, sometimes and in some places, procedures are totally wacky (that is, not in accord with the clearly stated terms of the law) and criteria used for judging invalidity are … not what I would use.

most common in the United States simply because the tribunals existed and were staffed, as you described.

The most important factor in how the USA became “functional” was the introduction of special procedural law for the USA, back in the 1970s. That changed everything and set the USA on a course of, among the people, an expectation that nullity trials were practical and common in basically every diocese of the USA. Personnel can be difficult to come by and so I do think that staffing is the biggest hurdle throughout the world. It would now be a hurdle for the USA, but the number of cases has dwindled along with the number of trained canonists.

Dan

 

[acanonlawyer]

That (“moral certitude”) is what tribunals base their judgments on many, many times.

Well, technically, it should be what the Judges base their decisions on not many times but all of the time.

Dan

 

[acanonlawyer]

How are the internal forums misused?

Basically, it is what happens or has happened in those cases where a priest or layperson attempts privately to do something he/she is not able to do. On this point, I admit that there are others, in positions of authority, who appear to have a different view on what the priest/layperson is able to do.

I don’t have time now to say much more. Here is some commentary: Toward informed discussion of the ‘internal forum’ | In the Light of the Law

Dan

 

[pnewton]

Anyone, we know that probably the majority of cases are just divorced people that are in a second union

That is why none of the suggestions made will apply to the majority of people. There is no contradiction of doctrine, only a procedure, or discipline, and even that should be rare.

 

[pnewton]

I am with @1ke on this one. My experience has been that they have been dishonest, either intentionally, or through negligence and eagerness in their anticatholicism. I trust them no more that I did Jack Chick tracts.

 

[Ammi]

Ammi:

That (“moral certitude”) is what tribunals base their judgments on many, many times.

Well, technically, it should be what the Judges base their decisions on not many times but all of the time.

Dan

I agree. I guess I didnt express that correctly.

What the tribunal considers “moral certitude” is based on something that they determine.

That is the problem. Not necessarily canon law. But how it’s being interpreted, in the U.S.

Very liberal.

As for the internal forum, and receiving Communion while in objective adultery, it’s a step backwards. Just like the “reform” being pushed with tribunal procedures.

I could underatand trying to establish tribunals in places which have none. But the reform happening is not what the last two Popes were trying to reform.

This papacy is very different than the last two, IMO.

 

[Ammi]

This is a totally different kind of reform than what the last two Popes were concerned with.

The last two were concerned with the number of annulments going on, and how they were being judged.

Francis’s reform is about streamlining, and eliminating checks and balances.

 

[JMMJ]

St. Pope John Paul II addressed the issue and recognized a distinct line which cannot be crossed in situations like this. Namely, abstaining from the marital act (sex).

So why do you get so frustrated and worked up over this? You don’t know what people do and don’t do behind closed doors. It isn’t your place to know. Or make assumptions, right?

 

[Ammi]

I’m not talking about specific cases. It’s about Teaching. What the faith is, and what lines are being drawn.

It affects the whole Church, when we sin, and profane Eucharist Communion. Because when we give in, we stop fighting the good fight. And when we stop fighting, we lose, because our enemy is constantly trying to break down the Church and establish strongholds.

Each Christian matters! We need one another! I need forgiveness and encouragement to do the right thing! Even if its daunting! Even if I cant do it. We need to confess when we cant do it… so that Jesus comes to give us the strength to do it. No matter how many times we fall.

 

[JulianN]

Rome has a more reliable tribunal.

On what are you basing that? Have you dealt with the Rota?

 

[Ammi]

Good question.

If on their website description, I’d recommend Madison Wisconsin. Yet Rome is a final appeal and should have the more orthodox interpretation. I’d pick Rome over the U.S. in general, but there are always exceptions.

 

[otjm]

4 are not a majority, and the silence from the great to vast majority of bishops and Cardinals of the world is telling, to those who would listen.

The answer was received; it was silence. Some say that was not an answer; but those who say that are so low on the pay grade scale, so far out of the loop which is concerned with it, that they are just injecting opinions without facts. As in, those objecting are laity who know little or nothing of the substance of the matters.

The point being that the whole matter came across not as a sincere question on the matter, but a public attempt to belittle and embarrass not only the Pope, but those with whom he consulted.

 

[MamaJewel]

This makes me, sincerely, very very frustrated. How can the Church and their bishops approves something that is so clearly, directly and unquestionable against Catholic teaching?

Under the watchful eyes of certain youth who have divorced parents and gay friends, it makes the bishops and hierarchy look hypocritical. If an already married person can hook up with another spouse and take communion, why can’t the church allow two gay people who love each other get married? (I’ve been asked that question by a few young people.)

But when you realize that some bishops themselves seems to be approving this. I don’t know, it is complicated.

I agree it’s complicated.
The communion disclaimer is right there in the front of the missal. The packed Easter and Christmas masses are probably some of the most serious for the celebrants who pray, “Lord Jesus Christ, you said to your apostles: I leave you peace, my peace I give you. Look not on our sins, but on the faith of your Church, and grant us the peace and unity of your kingdom where you live for ever and ever.”

In the silence of their hearts, the clergy are probably praying that all of those in attendance come back next week to have an on-going relationship with Christ.

It’s about Teaching. What the faith is, and what lines are being drawn.

This^^
Words can be placed into a catechism and called “teachings”. But if those teachings are allowed by the church to be relative for one group of believers, then they can be perceived to be relative for all believers.

Certainly if the church expects cohabitating couples with no intentions of getting married to abstain from communion, or for civilly married gay couples to abstain from communion, it can place the expectation that married hetero couples live chastely (no contraception) and faithfully to marriage vows or abstain from communion.
If there’s active adultery, or remarriage without annulment, then those individuals should be expected to do what a gay couple would be expected to do… get a divorce and live chastely (no hooking or shacking up) or abstain from Eucharist.

In fact, the hetero couples should be leading by example in sacred relationships marked by marital chastity and fidelity. From a Catholic standpoint, anything less is an absolute scandal in our current relativist society.

 

[acanonlawyer]

The answer was received; it was silence. Some say that was not an answer; but those who say that are so low on the pay grade scale, so far out of the loop which is concerned with it, that they are just injecting opinions without facts. As in, those objecting are laity who know little or nothing of the substance of the matters.

I disagree. I guess I must be just another ignorant, low on the pay scale (wouldn’t mind more pay, I have to admit) layman.

Dan

 

[JulianN]

Good question.

If on their website description, I’d recommend Madison Wisconsin. Yet Rome is a final appeal and should have the more orthodox interpretation. I’d pick Rome over the U.S. in general, but there are always exceptions.

Ah, I wondered. My direct experience with the Rota would not be something I’d characterize as “reliable.”