Admitting children of same-sex couples to Catholic elementary schools

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There is a fine difference between teaching the truth and messing around in business that you do not belong in. This aside, why on earth would children (particularly children of the age at which you think you have to protect from any signs of homosexuality) be teaching the truth about very complex ideas of catholicism. I don’t know about you, but I’d rather let our clergy members teach about the catholic stance to SSA, and let our children be normal children.
“Mommy, why does Raymond have two Daddies but no Mommy?
He says that botrh are his parents. I thought that everyone only has one Mommy and and a Daddy?” Do you suppose that parents first, and teachers second, as the primary educators of our children ought to defer to clergy when a scenario like this would likely unfold? Out of the mouths of babes …There is a normalcy and standard and lived practicality to Catholic morality that you and other posters seem to be in denial of.

And for those of adolescent age, here is the statement of the Catholic Medical Association:

Homosexuality and Hope
Statement of the Catholic Medical Association


“Teachers in Catholic institutions have a duty to defend the teachings of the Church on sexual morality, to counter false information on same-sex attraction, and to inform at-risk or homosexually involved adolescents that help is available.”

http://www.cathmed.org/publications/homosexuality.html
As to these testimonials. Most of them are interviews with people on the topic, some say they have left the homosexual lifestyle, very few say they are ‘cured’.
Cured, recovered, recovering …what is your point?

How about recovered (as in recovered their properly ordered sexual desire) to the extent that these individuals can live well adjusted heterosexual ordered lifestyles? Or recovering (managing the residual features of the disorder), while maintaining a well adjusted, comfortable, moral heterosexual lifestyle? I don’t think that your opinion changes the testimony of those in real life experience who have been there and done it: couragerc.net/MemberTestimonies.html
I dont think many people there can say they are truly cured, can live normal heterosexual lifestyles, and have put everything that they were behind them.
Just your opinion, or do you have any facts/source to back this?
 
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Libero:
This may not necesserily true, you are stereotyping here. Whats worse two homosexual parents who love their child, would do anything to protect them, and ensures that they have all they need to fully develop into a normal person; or a heterosexual couple who beat their children, binge drink, openly have numerous sexual partners, and could not care less for their children? Just because a child has homosexual parents does not mean that they will come to agree with the idea of homosexuality. If it is not a punishment, then what is it? An example of life being unfair, or perhaps unjust discrimination?
As I stated before homosexuals adopting children ought never be done and this may be known from the Vatican instruction, the natural moral law and right reason. It is a straw man to claim that heterosexual abuse is a reason to allow homosexual adoption. It is a false choice. Homosexual adoption is always wrong. It does moral violence to the children. It confuses them and deprives them of proper maturation and moral formation.
I think that the effect that it has on children is being overly emphasised. It really wont effect children that much, particularly if their parent is doing a good enough job. Nobody is downplaying the sin of scandal, they are simply not choosing to focus the conversation on it, as it has no definite connection to their children.
I am sorry, but this misses the point entirely and refuses to acknowledge the danger of scandal. Children are sponges, they are innocent, they are in there formative years. To intentionally expose children to such things is counter to Christian principles. Children are to be raised in the faith, protected and nurtured, not be part of some goofy social experiment that bends the natural moral law.
 
I know why this is an emotional subject. It has long been the Church’s modus operandi, for a debatable better or for worse , to indoctrinate and catechize (is that a word?) at a young age. Confirmation occurs at 7th grade, first communion and confession in 2nd grade. It does this through a web of school + Church.

This is so emotional because if the Church denies entrance of children of homosexuals into it’s system, it losing it’s chance at making a good Catholic. They can only hope that the child converts later and that has probably a statistically lower chance than if the child is indoctrinated at a young age.

If they let the couples in, they have condoned the homosexual relationship in a way. I don’t think it has to be viewed that way. The couple may be raising kids in a chaste way. . .

It’s a no-win situation for them. I feel bad for the Church in this regard. I guess it comes down to what a Church and school is supposed to be -

a Haven for Sinners or a Home for Saints?

I didn’t read every response so I hope I am not repeating anything.
 
Libero said:
This may not necesserily true, you are stereotyping here. Whats worse two homosexual parents who love their child, would do anything to protect them, and ensures that they have all they need to fully develop into a normal person; or a heterosexual couple who beat their children, binge drink, openly have numerous sexual partners, and could not care less for their children? Just because a child has homosexual parents does not mean that they will come to agree with the idea of homosexuality. If it is not a punishment, then what is it? An example of life being unfair, or perhaps unjust discrimination?
I find your comparision crass and insensistive to the psycho-social-spiritual developmental needs of God’s children. How about the mental, emotional, social and spiritual abuse and damage done to these children of homosexual parents?
I think that the effect that it has on children is being overly emphasised. It really wont effect children that much, particularly if their parent is doing a good enough job. Nobody is downplaying the sin of scandal, they are simply not choosing to focus the conversation on it, as it has no definite connection to their children.
Based on your own expeirnce of raising impressionable children? Based on your knowledge of the developmental needs of children? Based on the all out spiritual battle being waged for the hearts and minds and souls of our children? If I sound extreme, then maybe its not me that needs a wake up call.
 
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iserve:
A child does not have what it takes to know what is good and what is evil, this is why we spend a great deal of time and energy on educating children and indoctrinating them to the faith. It is hard to imagine the confusion of a child who is learning that homosexual behavior is bad if “my friend has two daddies or mommies and everything seems ok with their family. After all, everyone, even the Church accepts them,so what’s the big deal?”

The big deal is that this acceptance is a lie. We know what these folks are doing is wrong, and that by having children living with them in these sham marriages, they are corrupting the minds of their children. By default, their behavior is corrupting all children, because exposure to their lifestyle is detrimental to society and contrary to the laws of God and nature. Why would any prudent parent want to invite this insidious kind of rationale into the formative life of their children? Can the child see the danger? No! Can the child understand how the souls of these people and their children would be affected? No!

I remember an incident when one of my children was invited to join her friend in an evangelical Youth Group, and I said “no”. When the other parent questioned me, I said that her faith formation was my job, and I didn’t feel that she was equipped to understand the subtleties of the differences between Catholic and non-Catholic faiths. When she becomes an adult, she will be free to choose, but while she is learning, it is up to me to choose.

I would remove my child from this school if they can’t see the reasons for not adhering to Catholic precepts. Even Jesus advised His followers to “shake the dust of (those who will not listen) from your sandals”.
All good points.
 
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I know why this is an emotional subject. It has long been the Church’s modus operandi, for a debatable better or for worse , to indoctrinate and catechize (is that a word?) at a young age. Confirmation occurs at 7th grade, first communion and confession in 2nd grade. It does this through a web of school + Church.

This is so emotional because if the Church denies entrance of children of homosexuals into it’s system, it losing it’s chance at making a good Catholic. They can only hope that the child converts later and that has probably a statistically lower chance than if the child is indoctrinated at a young age.

If they let the couples in, they have condoned the homosexual relationship in a way. I don’t think it has to be viewed that way. The couple may be raising kids in a chaste way. . .

It’s a no-win situation for them. I feel bad for the Church in this regard. I guess it comes down to what a Church and school is supposed to be -

a Haven for Sinners or a Home for Saints?

I didn’t read every response so I hope I am not repeating anything.
So parents who send their children to public schools do not have Catholic children?
 
“Mommy, why does Raymond have two Daddies but no Mommy?
He says that botrh are his parents. I thought that everyone only has one Mommy and and a Daddy?” Do you suppose that parents first, and teachers second, as the primary educators of our children ought to defer to clergy when a scenario like this would likely unfold? Out of the mouths of babes …There is a normalcy and standard and lived practicality to Catholic morality that you and other posters seem to be in denial of.
The way to solve such a scenario is not to run away from it in cowardice, and prevent by any means possbile, but to setablish proper things to say, using some elements of homosexual parenting. Take how the government justified it, try to make it understandable to a child, and then teach that it is still immoral. Your not stopping your child from discovering these things, just making it worse if they do.
Just your opinion, or do you have any facts/source to back this?
My opinion, hence the fact that I wrote I think. This is a forum, one of its functions is for people to voice opinions and ideas.
As I stated before homosexuals adopting children ought never be done and this may be known from the Vatican instruction, the natural moral law and right reason. It is a straw man to claim that heterosexual abuse is a reason to allow homosexual adoption. It is a false choice. Homosexual adoption is always wrong. It does moral violence to the children. It confuses them and deprives them of proper maturation and moral formation.
As I have stated before, I do not agree with homosexuals being able to adopt, or for that matter being allowed to marry. I am not trying to justify homosexual adoption, sorry if somehow you thought I was.
How about the mental, emotional, social and spiritual abuse and damage done to these children of homosexual parents?
Please read previous comment
I am sorry, but this misses the point entirely and refuses to acknowledge the danger of scandal. Children are sponges, they are innocent, they are in there formative years. To intentionally expose children to such things is counter to Christian principles. Children are to be raised in the faith, protected and nurtured, not be part of some goofy social experiment that bends the natural moral law.
There are always going to be things that innocent children have to see, if people are really that concerned that seeing someone who has two homosexual parents is going to have a negative everlasting effect on their child, then they can always compromise, make an agreement with school leaders and the homosexual couple, there is no need to block away the homosexual couple, children will always encounter evil in one form or another.
Based on your own expeirnce of raising impressionable children? Based on your knowledge of the developmental needs of children? Based on the all out spiritual battle being waged for the hearts and minds and souls of our children? If I sound extreme, then maybe its not me that needs a wake up call.
Okay, so I cant base my points of view on having had children, but can you honestly say, that a child having seen a homosexual couple is going to ruin their lives forever, it is going to create huge problems that cannot be corrected. Perhaps we can establish what problems you believe the child would develop because they have seen homosexual parents, that have an effect more terrible than anything else they could encounter as a child. Then our debate can move forward. Also I did not imply that you need a wake up call, I dont think it was necessary for you to imply so about me, but it was still very kind of you. Thankyou.
 
Libero said:
The way to solve such a scenario is not to run away from it in cowardice, and prevent by any means possbile, but to setablish proper things to say,
This directly contradicts your previous comment:
Originally Posted by Libero
There is a fine difference between teaching the truth and messing around in business that you do not belong in. …I don’t know about you, **but I’d rather let our clergy members teach about the catholic stance to SSA, and let our children be normal children. **
Which one is it? :hmmm:
…but to setablish proper things to say, using some elements of homosexual parenting.
What exactly is “elements of homosexual parenting” and which one’s would you include and to what end/purpose?
Take how the government justified it, try to make it understandable to a child, and then teach that it is still immoral. Your not stopping your child from discovering these things, just making it worse if they do.
Again, you are changing tactics from don’t speak, don’t tell, to tell all before the kids find all. You are sounding more confused here. Which one is it?
My opinion, hence the fact that I wrote I think. This is a forum, one of its functions is for people to voice opinions and ideas.
See the cited source for my assertions.
Please read previous comment
I did. It changes nothing. You are still advocating to expose impressionable, vulnerable children to the confusion and developmental abuse of a homosexual lifestyle and worldview as an acceptable norm. :tsktsk:
There are always going to be things that innocent children have to see, if people are really that concerned that seeing someone who has two homosexual parents is going to have a negative everlasting effect on their child, then they can always compromise, make an agreement with school leaders and the homosexual couple, there is no need to block away the homosexual couple, children will always encounter evil in one form or another.
You can choose to abdicate your responsibility, I certainly am not. I will insist on a Catholic culture in my Catholic institution of education formation.
Okay, so I cant base my points of view on having had children, but can you honestly say, that a child having seen a homosexual couple is going to ruin their lives forever, it is going to create huge problems that cannot be corrected. Perhaps we can establish what problems you believe the child would develop because they have seen homosexual parents, that have an effect more terrible than anything else they could encounter as a child. Then our debate can move forward.
I will let the Catechism of the Catholic Church respond to you on this one:

**2229 **As those first responsible for the education of their children, parents have the right to choose a school for them which corresponds to their own convictions. This right is fundamental. As far as possible parents have the duty of choosing schools that will best help them in their task as Christian educators.

**2252 **Parents have the first responsibility for the education of their children in the faith, prayer, and all the virtues. They have the duty to provide as far as possible for the physical and spiritual needs of their children.
Also I did not imply that you need a wake up call, I dont think it was necessary for you to imply so about me, but it was still very kind of you. Thankyou.
You more than welcome. Anything to help a brother along the path to heaven.
 
So parents who send their children to public schools do not have Catholic children?
FX,

I don’t understand. Is this a rhetorical question I am not supposed to answer?
 
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FX,

I don’t understand. Is this a rhetorical question I am not supposed to answer?
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was pointing out that enrolling in a Catholic school is not necessary to raise children as Catholic. I was refuting the assertion of many who claim not enrolling these children from SS parents is punishing them. These children may still be raised in the faith, like many others who are not in a Cathloic school.
 
FX,

Oh, ok. I understand.
And I agree.

I guess Catholic School membership is a privledge whereas Public School attendance is a right. I couild buy that.
 
This directly contradicts your previous comment:
This may get slightly confusing at times, but I shall try and establish my beliefs. The role of the child and parent when dealing with homosexual parents at a school are different ones, thus the confusion from my posts. To the child, I would say try not to get involved (that is if you have the problem with the idea of your child being influenced by scandalous behaviour). to the parent I would say, that if the topic were to come up, do not run away from it, try to explain to the child which now leads me to the next point.
What exactly is “elements of homosexual parenting” and which one’s would you include and to what end/purpose?
By elements (perhaps this is the wrong word) I mean take the idea of homosexual parenting and use parts of it when explaining to the child. For example say that the couples child is adopted, say that the two men/ women love each other - I assume this would be the case - and then say that God did dont make it this way so it should not really happen. I would also add that the child should not go and bother or treat the homosexuals child any differently.
I will let the Catechism of the Catholic Church respond to you on this one:
That is not a response, that has just reitarated what I already know to be the role of a parent.
You more than welcome. Anything to help a brother along the path to heaven.
I was being sarcastic there, which I am sure you know. But that aside please do not calim to be helping me. I do not play these silly little games of “will God let me into heaven or will he throw me into hell”. I follow my religion, because I believe in what is written, God will not judge me because I said that innocent children of homosexual couples should have the same rights and oppertunities as those of heterosexual couples. I follow Gods law, not to get into heaven, but rather because I know it is the right thing to do. I am sure that any other brother would be happy for you to help them on the path to heaven, but please do not claim that deplorable implications is a way to set a person on the road to God.
You are still advocating to expose impressionable, vulnerable children to the confusion and developmental abuse of a homosexual lifestyle and worldview as an acceptable norm
We have been over this, I have stated that really I do not believe that a child will be permenantly damaged with the confusion and developmental abuse of a homosexual lifestyle, because they attend a school with a child that has homosexual parents. If the child is educated properly then they shall know that a homosexual lifestyle is not the acceptable norm. It seems that you just doubt the ability of both teachers, parents and clergy members to educate children in Gods teachings on homosexuality.
 
Libero said:
This may get slightly confusing at times, but I shall try and establish my beliefs. The role of the child and parent when dealing with homosexual parents at a school are different ones, thus the confusion from my posts. To the child, I would say try not to get involved (that is if you have the problem with the idea of your child being influenced by scandalous behaviour). to the parent I would say, that if the topic were to come up, do not run away from it, try to explain to the child which now leads me to the next point.

By elements (perhaps this is the wrong word) I mean take the idea of homosexual parenting and use parts of it when explaining to the child. For example say that the couples child is adopted, say that the two men/ women love each other - I assume this would be the case - and then say that God did dont make it this way so it should not really happen. I would also add that the child should not go and bother or treat the homosexuals child any differently.
This all but underlies my position: Why should I as a parent, my child as a student, have to be subjected to having to deal with this whole issue of homosexual marriage in the first place in our Catholic school. As the saying goes, you are confusing the trees for the forest.
That is not a response, that has just reitarated what I already know to be the role of a parent.
I don’t waste my quotes from the CCC.
I was being sarcastic there, which I am sure you know. But that aside please do not calim to be helping me. I do not play these silly little games of “will God let me into heaven or will he throw me into hell”.
Do you also think that the mercy and justice of God is a “silly little game”?
I follow my religion, because I believe in what is written, God will not judge me because I said that innocent children of homosexual couples should have the same rights and oppertunities as those of heterosexual couples.
This issue is about the public conduct and proclamation of the parents as it squares with Catholic teaching in matters of faith and morals.
I follow Gods law, not to get into heaven, but rather because I know it is the right thing to do.
I certainly am not above seeking heaven as the goal and consequence of being a folower of Christ. God instilled in man the response to incentive and reward, it only matters how you channel your energies and respond to this God given endowment.
I am sure that any other brother would be happy for you to help them on the path to heaven, but please do not claim that deplorable implications is a way to set a person on the road to God.
“…deplorable implications …” …:confused:
We have been over this, I have stated that really I do not believe that a child will be permenantly damaged with the confusion and developmental abuse of a homosexual lifestyle, because they attend a school with a child that has homosexual parents.
You have already established that this is your OPINION only, i.e., no reference to studies, developmental models, personal experience, …
If the child** is educated properly**
then they shall know that a homosexual lifestyle is not the acceptable norm.
Which is what I have been advocating for all along, i.e., keeping Catholic schools unabashedly Catholic in character and conduct of both students and parents. Your posts and position does not say the same.
It seems that you just doubt the ability of both teachers, parents and clergy members to educate children in Gods teachings on homosexuality.
I believe in excercising discernment and prudence over the influences and experiences that I allow my impressionable children to be exposed to. This is my charge and duty as a parent (I will spare you a CCC citation this time).
 
What about mercy? Isn’t that what we are taught? These kids are innocent - you make them guilty by association (the sins of the fathers). Do you really think Jesus would do this??? Did it occur to anyone that Catholic school is just what the kids need? A place where they are taught about God? A good and holy influence?? Perhaps the kids could influence their “parents” eventually to change their way of life. Not to give these kids a chance is literally throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
 
After 3 pages of this thread I can see there is a division but this can be worked out.
ALL children are welcomed. It is important that any parent sending their child to a Catholic school sign a letter of affirmation upholding the Catholic Church. This isn’t a difficult concept to agree on. Unfortunately, all posting on this thread have either ignored this proposal or have discounted it all together. Sending children to Catholic schools is an earned priviledge which is not only paid for with money but also commitment.

MONEY and COMMITMENT EQUALS ENTRY

The only one of these two which can be discounted is money (tuition). Most Catholic schools have special funds for needful students. Commitment to the Catholic school and Church cannot be compromised. A compromise would be homosexual parents openly displaying their relationship on a school campus. This is unacceptable. Their children are welcome but the homosexual behaviour of parents is not. Allowing homosexual parents to enroll children into Catholic schools is condoning homosexual activity.
 
I suspect the numbers on this poll are twisted because of the high number of divorces combined with the number of out-of- wedlock children. For a few decades, countless numbers of Catholic heterosexuals have been living a swinging and immoral life. Many of those responding in this poll may be from households in which Mom & Dad are living in sin already ( divorced without innullment). The children of these very parents were enrolled in Catholic schools without guilt. So they might say why not let the homosexual parents let their children in to? This is poor reasoning.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. Times must change for everyone. We all need to be walking the straight and narrow path. The cafeteria Catholics need to form a new straight line.
 
After 3 pages of this thread I can see there is a division but this can be worked out.
Yes, I agree. As I have written a compromise could easily be made, but for some reason people are assuming that taking an unfair track is the only option. It is not
This all but underlies my position: Why should I as a parent, my child as a student, have to be subjected to having to deal with this whole issue of homosexual marriage in the first place in our Catholic school. As the saying goes, you are confusing the trees for the forest.
Why? One reason is that you know that this small challenge that you have taken up is allowing an innocent child to have a good education, and to grow closer to God; but if you want to deny that child such an oppertunity, it is up to you.
Do you also think that the mercy and justice of God is a “silly little game”?
No, I believe that people who have no right or authority to tell me they are helping me to get into heaven is a silly little game, I believe that nobody has the power to predict their own fate, and believe that their thoughts somehow manipulate it. God loves us, and judges us as appropriate. Not about what we thought about education for homosexual parents children.
This issue is about the public conduct and proclamation of the parents as it squares with Catholic teaching in matters of faith and morals.
I think you will find it is not, hence the title of the thread.
I certainly am not above seeking heaven as the goal and consequence of being a folower of Christ. God instilled in man the response to incentive and reward, it only matters how you channel your energies and respond to this God given endowment.
Good. I’m glad that you have proven me wrong.
“…deplorable implications …”
If you cant understand the words get a dictionary.
You have already established that this is your OPINION only, i.e., no reference to studies, developmental models, personal experience, …
Well I hope that when making your intelligent comments you did so with a wealth of research, not just internet browsing on NARTH. I am afraid your research is very bias, thus it can only support your argument to a certain point. Despite this I believe that you yourself decided to ignore my request to hear what problems a child would encounter - previous post:
Perhaps we can establish what problems you believe the child would develop because they have seen homosexual parents, that have an effect more terrible than anything else they could encounter as a child. Then our debate can move forward.
Which is what I have been advocating for all along, i.e., keeping Catholic schools unabashedly Catholic in character and conduct of both students and parents. Your posts and position does not say the same.
But you see this is not necessary. Their is nothing wrong with the child, and just ask the parents not to play a large part in school life. I think you’ll find very few schools are unbashedly catholic. Otherwise they’d be teaching a number of inncorrect facts.
I believe in excercising discernment and prudence over the influences and experiences that I allow my impressionable children to be exposed to.
Have you never thought that continuously wrapping your children up in cotton wool may have a negative effect on them in later life?
 
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koda:
What about mercy? Isn’t that what we are taught? These kids are innocent - you make them guilty by association (the sins of the fathers). Do you really think Jesus would do this??? Did it occur to anyone that Catholic school is just what the kids need? A place where they are taught about God? A good and holy influence?? Perhaps the kids could influence their “parents” eventually to change their way of life. Not to give these kids a chance is literally throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Mercy would be petitioning the state to have these children removed from such an environment.

BTW, once again I must say that not allowing enrollment is not a punishment. The real punishment is that the state allows these children to be adopted by these folks.

This quote about casting the first stone has nothing to do with the ideas being discussed in this thread. Could you please show us where that applies?
 
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contemplative:
ALL children are welcomed. It is important that any parent sending their child to a Catholic school sign a letter of affirmation upholding the Catholic Church.
All parents should be instructed that to participate in the school they need to stop living a public life that contradicts Church teaching. This is hardly a novel concept.
 
Libero said:
Yes, I agree. As I have written a compromise could easily be made, but for some reason people are assuming that taking an unfair track is the only option. It is not
That really depends on how one defines “unfair track”. What compromise do you propose?
Why? One reason is that you know that this small challenge that you have taken up is allowing an innocent child to have a good education, and to grow closer to God; but if you want to deny that child such an oppertunity, it is up to you.
You continue to obfuscate and minimizing the issue at hand shifting the focus away from the homosexual partners lifestyle and the sin of scandal. Why is this?
No, I believe that people who have no right or authority to tell me they are helping me to get into heaven is a silly little game, I believe that nobody has the power to predict their own fate, and believe that their thoughts somehow manipulate it
. God loves us, and judges us as appropriate. Not about what we thought about education for homosexual parents children.
Thank you, but I will defer to the Church for what is silly in matters of faith, morals and obtaining salvation.
I think you will find it is not, hence the title of the thread.

Good. I’m glad that you have proven me wrong.

If you cant understand the words get a dictionary.
Not a serious response.
Well I hope that when making your intelligent comments you did so with a wealth of research, not just internet browsing on NARTH. I am afraid your research is very bias, thus it can only support your argument to a certain point. Despite this I believe that you yourself decided to ignore my request to hear what problems a child would encounter - previous post:
Again, simply your OPINION only, void of any citation to authoritaive, credible source beyond your won conjecture. If you are not convinced at this point of the potential problems a child would encounter, I will not waste my time evidencing further. Again, maybe it will take for some having kids of one’s own to fully appreciate the awesome responsibility in what is at stake in the overall scheme of the education formation of God’s little one’s.
and just ask the [homosexual] parents not to play a large part in school life.
This gives me great assurance–NOT. All that you are requesting here is that we all walk around the elephant in the room. Can we become anymore flimsy in our stance for what it means to be Catholic?
I think you’ll find very few schools are unbashedly catholic. Otherwise they’d be teaching a number of inncorrect facts.
Continuing to be part of the problem IS NOT part of the solution. This belies an underlying helplessness, apathy or your personal bias.
Have you never thought that continuously wrapping your children up in cotton wool may have a negative effect on them in later life?
This has nothing to do with a child’s Catholic faith and education formation. That is what discernment and prudence is all about.
 
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