Admitting children of same-sex couples to Catholic elementary schools

[Libero]

You continue to obfuscate and minimizing the issue at hand shifting the focus away from the homosexual partners lifestyle and the sin of scandal. Why is this?

that is because the children and there school is the topic of the thread, is it at all possible that it could remain that way, everyone knows your thoughts on the scandalous homosexuality.

Not a serious response.

Please, non of this so called conversation is serious, it is supposed to be a civilised conversation, but rather it has thurned into you and I trying to destory each others argument, this was not my intention.

Again, simply your OPINION only, void of any citation to authoritaive, credible source beyond your won conjecture. If you are not convinced at this point of the potential problems a child would encounter, I will not waste my time evidencing further. Again, maybe it will take for some having kids of one’s own to fully appreciate the awesome responsibility in what is at stake in the overall scheme of the education formation of God’s little one’s.

What? Youre just running away from evidence again, why? Okay we have established I dont have children, no need to dwell on it, I am not old enough. However I am a child, and I do have a mother who did a wonderful job.

Can we become anymore flimsy in our stance for what it means to be Catholic?

What does it mean to be catholic? I thought it meant to be caring, love everyone, accept that we are all sinners, follow the word of God and to treat others as we treat ourselves. Clearly your thought of catholicism is different, and one of educating everyone in a ‘I’m right your wrong’ facist kind of way. Please correct if wrong.

This has nothing to do with a child’s Catholic faith and education formation. That is what discernment and prudence is all about.

Okay, but I think youll find your also guitly of bringing up irrelevant things, such as the fact I do not have children.

 

[felra]

Libero:

that is because the children and there school is the topic of the thread, is it at all possible that it could remain that way, everyone knows your thoughts on the scandalous homosexuality.

Please, non of this so called conversation is serious, it is supposed to be a civilised conversation, but rather it has thurned into you and I trying to destory each others argument, this was not my intention.

What? Youre just running away from evidence again, why? Okay we have established I dont have children, no need to dwell on it, I am not old enough. However I am a child, and I do have a mother who did a wonderful job.

What does it mean to be catholic? I thought it meant to be caring, love everyone, accept that we are all sinners, follow the word of God and to treat others as we treat ourselves. Clearly your thought of catholicism is different, and one of educating everyone in a ‘I’m right your wrong’ facist kind of way. Please correct if wrong.

Okay, but I think youll find your also guitly of bringing up irrelevant things, such as the fact I do not have children.

Libero, I commend you on your persistence in your argumentation, but maybe you need to take a break from this thread. Your post has taken on a very personal and antagonistic tone that was never in the content of my posts. I take great care to never personally direct my comments to the person behind the posts, and if I slip, I own up and apologize, which is not the case here.

God bless.

 

[MariaGorettiGrl]

It’s alays easier to convert people when they come to you instead of you coming to them. If a homosexual couple puts their kid in a Catholic school, rather than trying to “infect” the school, I think they would be trying to do the right thing for their child. And if the school can positively influence the child, then the child can positively influence the parents.

I, thought not a parent, understand not wanting the other children exposed to this evil at such a young age. I have young “nieces” (not actually related through blood, but through love) I am deeply devoted to and I pray so hard that their youth won’t be soiled by the world. But at the same time, I know this will one day happen. Even if a homosexual couple doesn’t enroll a child at the school, some kid’s older brother will make a comment about a “gay person” and then the child will ask their parents about this, and then they will share this new information with their friends at school. These things always get in somehow and parents always have to be on guard to deal with them. I would think it would be better to have it in a controlled environment where the parents know it’s coming and the kids can hear about it from the Catholic view. But not all parents will feel the same.

Best of all would be if none of us had to face this, but we do. No way we do it will be perfect, but we have to stumble along somehow.

 

[Consecrated]

wcknight:

I have never advocated purposely exposing kids to sin nor woud I. IF it were possible to exclude sin from their lives I would. The world has changed tremendously since my kids were school age. Ten years ago this would hardly have been an issue.

But since it is, we have to deal with it. I happen to think discrimination and prejudice is not the route to teach our kids right from wrong.

Of course it isn’t. Such tactics will only enforce the position of those publically living the homosexual lifestyle.

wcknight:

In early grade school the kids will not even care or even notice the situations. As they get older, they need to learn that such life styles exist. Knowing that they exist and that is goes against Church teachings is far different from exposing them to this life style.

As parents, it is easy to make the mistake of thinking theIr children are more oblivious than they really are. Children notice far more than we give them credit for. If they are exposed, even (and maybe especially)) at an early age, to an immoral situation that is accepted as normal by some of the adults in their lives (i.e. teachers, principals), they will QUICKLY come to assume that said situation is normal. AND HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT NORMAL. Like you said, wcknight, if our children must know that these situations exist, it is the responsibility of the parents to actively uphold the teaching of the Church.

Please forgive me for relating a personal anecdote:
When I was about 8 years old, my family was visiting some extended family (all at least nominally Catholic) out of town. I wanted to spend the night at a cousin of my own age’s house. Also to be staying at that house was my aunt who at that time was living with a man outside of marriage. My aunt and her boyfriend would be sleeping together in the same bed at my cousin’s house, and this was a fact generally known and accepted by my extended family. Despite the ridicule she experienced from her mother, brothers and sisters, my mother refused to allow me to spend the night at my cousin’s house because she did not want to expose me to an immoral situation that was being treated as “normal.” The lesson that my mother taught me that evening by publically standing up for the sanctity of marriage and the marriage bed is one that resonates with me to this day. Incidentally, my cousin ended up loosing her Catholic faith, and lived with her boyfriend for a year before marrying.

wcknight:

Allowing kids to attend a Catholic school is a far cry from having the kids live in a same sex household. If the same sex parents can be discrete about their relationship, I don’t see this as a major problem. It is not the ideal situation, but I think far more damage is done if a feeling of discrimination and isolation is made.

Is it possible that it is more damaging to our childrens’ eternal souls to risk malforming their tiny and vulnerable consciences by even the breath of acceptance of a publically (notice I said publically) sinful lifestyle than to seem to make “a feeling of discrimination and isolation”? Obviously, we must also contantly be teaching our children Jesus’ example of loving the sinner. Such love has inspired the conversion of many a sinner. It is possible (though maybe not easy), with the grace of God, to be charitable and yet not sacrifice one iota of the Truth. In fact, Truth and Charity go hand in hand. To sacrifice Truth for Charity does no one any good, including the children living in a same-sex household.

 

[wcknight]

Homosexuals who are chaste are not living immoral lives. Accordiing to the Church, they are not allowed to engage in homosexual acts. IF they abide by these rules they are no different than any other Catholic.

I can see no reason to bar such a couple from sending their children to a Catholic school. BUT that is just my opinion.

 

[felra]

Homosexuals who are chaste are not living immoral lives. Accordiing to the Church, they are not allowed to engage in homosexual acts. IF they abide by these rules they are no different than any other Catholic.

I can see no reason to bar such a couple from sending their children to a Catholic school. BUT that is just my opinion.

What is the non-moral basis for them living together as a “couple” other than their mutual SSA bond? (though no longer given sexual expression if truly “chaste”). They are VERY different than every other Catholic “couple” (I did note that you dropped “couple” in your comparison with “any other Catholic”) living together under the seal of sacramental marriage.

 

[iserve]

wc- Puhleeeeze…Where have you been? I have seen homosexuals in the front pews at church hugging each other like this was the best thing since apple pie, people with rainbow sashes going up to Communion, “chaste” priests claiming that homosexuality is acceptable to God, and every other kind of warm, fuzzy obfuscation of the reality that homosexual attraction to sexual experience with a member of the same sex is inherently flawed, sinful behavior. No child of mine would sit in a school where their moral life is being formed and listen to teachers and administrators trying to find ways to pussy-foot around the elephant in the room- just so that we can all accomodate the children these folks** use ***to get themselves in the door! *In no way do I blame these kids, but what good could it possibly do for them to hear in school that this behavior is a sin and then go home and face two people they love and listen to them tell them it is only discrimination, not really a sin? This is what is truly shameful, and justice and mercy are called for here, and not with the parents of the other children who are just trying to teach their children the right thing.

One of the main reasons why so many children fall prey to things that are bad is because, at first, those things don’t seem so bad. Ask any alcoholic or drug addict if they didn’t think the first outings in their descent were “not so terrible” as they were made out to be. All the more reaon to do it some more! The same thing happens here, and it is subtle and dangerous, and **NO, **children do not have the savvy to pick up on it and deal with it in an adult capcity, which is why we have so many children today who are caught up in sins that were once the domain of adults.

If we want to hand on to our children a body of faith that is believable, true, and absolute, then we’d best not water it down with accomodations for every wolf in a sheep’s costume that tries to get in, or worse, sends in innocent children to leave the door unlocked for them.

 

[coyote]

Michael T.:

NightRider:
When a Catholic school admits a child or children adopted by homosexual men living in a pseudo-marital union it creates confusion and leads poorly catechized people who wish to “change the Church” to fantasize that they are making inroads towards a change in Church teaching.

In so doing, they also confuse the young people at the school, Catholic and non-Catholic alike, because these men do act as though they are a married, showing up to pick up the children, volunteering in classrooms, coming to school functions as a couple,

being listed as father and father (when neither of them is actually the father of these children since they’re adopted

and on and on. Kids are seeing this and it sends them a message, and if we are being honest here, that’s exactly the message these activist men and their supporters want to send, which is why they have joined this school in the first place.

You mentioned that the school’s enrollment of the children is not “official recognition”. I don’t care if the recognition is “official” or not. I am aware that homosexual unions will never get “official” recognition from Catholic schools, because homosexual unions are completely contrary to Catholic teaching and always will be, no matter how many people fantasize to the contrary.

As far as recognizing people as people, I was unaware of any Catholic teaching that homosexually oriented men and women are not people, therefore I am confused as to the significance of your point.

So the parents of adopted children can not list themselves as “mother” or “father” because they aren’t?
Homosexuality can’t be presumed to negate that one has no true biological children. What if one of them is the true father or mother? Where does your argument go then?

 

[coyote]

This issue is somewhat of a “sticky wicket”. There is no absolute correct choice. Any choice is ultimately a compromise of some moral principle.

Mk 14 "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for such is the kingdom of God.

Do you suppose the parents of any of those children were prostitues, liars, or sodomizers?

 

[fix]

coyote:

So the parents of adopted children can not list themselves as “mother” or “father” because they aren’t?
Homosexuality can’t be presumed to negate that one has no true biological children. What if one of them is the true father or mother? Where does your argument go then?

The children in the CA case were adopted. If same sex couples have one parent as biological, then obviously that one parent is the authentic parent.

 

[fix]

coyote:

This issue is somewhat of a “sticky wicket”. There is no absolute correct choice. Any choice is ultimately a compromise of some moral principle.

Mk 14 "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for such is the kingdom of God.

Do you suppose the parents of any of those children were prostitues, liars, or sodomizers?

Who is preventing any child from meeting Christ?

 

[contemplative]

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[contemplative]

FRANCISCAN UNIVERSITY PRESENTS 60:00
The Foundations of Catholic Sexual Ethics
Moral Theologian Dr. John Grabowski discusses the sizeable gap between official Church teaching on sexuality and the actual practice of millions of Catholics-and what the Church is doing to overcome that gap-with host Father Michael Scanlan, TOR, and panelists Dr. Regis Martin and Dr. Scott Hahn.
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[AlanFromWichita]

To me the test of a good school, Catholic or not, is what they do with the students in it, not the quality of the students entering it.

 

[contemplative]

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Friday, September 9, 3 AM ET

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[Elizabeth2]

contemplative:

I can’t believe you read the rest of the thread before posting this…

This was posted earlier. Your interpretation is incorrect. Also, please read threads before posting.

You are right I hadn’t read the rest of the posts, only the survey. (I’m truly chastised). I was new to the forums, just finding my way around, and hadn’t realized there was a big debate on this or that it was initiated by an actual event. Things are always messier in real life than in surveys. Having read a good portion of the posts, though not all, there are just too many now, I can only think what a mess, and feel for the kids in this situation, as well as sympathize with the parents who want to protect their children from the notion that homosexuality is normal or morally ok, because the school seems to accept it. I think it would have been better for everyone, including the kids themselves, if the school had refused to take them in. I’m not sure what you meant by the rest of your post. By quoting Jesus “Let the children come to me” I meant let them come to the teaching about Jesus that they would receive in a Catholic School. But in the case of gay activists the line has to be drawn somewhere.