adornment, veneration, to do or not to do?

[justasking4]

Would this prayer be considered adoring or venerating Mary?

"Hail Holy Queen. It’s the most commonly recited prayer in praise of Mary, after the Hail Mary itself, and was composed at the end of the eleventh century. It generally reads like this (there are several variants):

“Hail holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”

 

[guanophore]

Here is the prayer again so we can study it:

There is no doubt this is a prayer of adoration to a created being.

It is the poetry of love. Adoration of the divine is on another plane.

Have you ever written any Love poetry?

Ever read any?

Actually, some of the songs on the radio sound like adoration of created beings…

How is my question “anti-Catholic wishful thinking” when it is true that Mary was and is a created being?

You would like to somehow debunk and disprove the CAtholic Church, because your hatred and bigotry is so strong, the desire to stomp the Catholic Church under your foot is also strong. That is wishful thinking, though.

Secondly, how is this prayer not to be taken as adoration to Mary?

I strongly recommend, ja4, that you avoid adoration of any created being. This is considered idolatry. If you cannot read any love poetry without committing idolatry, then I think it would be safer for you not to read it at all. It is not worth your eternal soul.
It is better to enter the kingdom of heaven blind and lame.

How so? Look at some of the statements made in regards to Mary:
justasking4;4237562:

Can you tell me where in Scripture she is ever spoken of like this?

Praise and love poetry can be found in the Song of Solomon, the books of PRoverbs and Wisdom . There are probably other examples of love poetry there also.

These are the kinds of things that should only be said of Christ and not a created being.

If you feel that way, be careful not to say them!

If anyone is being specious its the church in allowing this kind of prayer to be promoted.

The Church has no problem with love, love poetry, and private devotions, so long as they do not break the commandments of God.

The temple was built by the Jews. However, we have no reason to think that they had any heavenly images of angels or God in their synagogues or homes.

Its the images that are of heavenly things that are forbidden and that’s where you have a problem. Mary is considered to be in heaven and you have images of her in your churches and yards.

What is forbidden, ja4, is worshipping the things that are made, instead of the Creator.

Well, if the making of images is wrong, then it is wrong in the ark, the temple, and everywhere else too!

8 “'You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 9 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God…” Deut 5:8-9

The making of images is not restricted to heavenly beings. Tell ,me, how is it from the above verse that you can interpret that heavenly images are forbidden, but images of “that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth” are not?

I mean, I think you are really doing a stretch here, to leave out the rest of the verse,a nd assert that it applies to heavenly beings.

As far as i know these objects were not considered images of
any likeness of anything that is in heaven above.

Right, so it is ok to make a statue of a serpent, and bow down in front of it? :whacky:

i think the honesty has to do with you in your understanding the implications of the commandment that forbids images of the heavenly.

I think it has been made clear by the scripture passages above, that God permitted the making and using of images in worship, both in the ark, and the temple.

The commandment forbids us to worship any but God alone.

 

[guanophore]

Would this prayer be considered adoring or venerating Mary?

"Hail Holy Queen. It’s the most commonly recited prayer in praise of Mary, after the Hail Mary itself, and was composed at the end of the eleventh century. It generally reads like this (there are several variants):

“Hail holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”

Catholics don’t adore anyone but God, so no. To me, it seems more like an intercessory prayer. It is honoring, so I would not preclude it from “veneration”.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Would this prayer be considered adoring or venerating Mary?

"Hail Holy Queen. It’s the most commonly recited prayer in praise of Mary, after the Hail Mary itself, and was composed at the end of the eleventh century. It generally reads like this (there are several variants):

“Hail holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”

guanophore
Catholics don’t adore anyone but God, so no. To me, it seems more like an intercessory prayer. It is honoring, so I would not preclude it from “veneration”.

There really is not much difference between adoring and veneration. Just look at this prayer above and see how it puts Mary at the same level as Christ.

 

[dougfreed]

I think the more appropriate statement would be You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

Have we settled ths fact the commandment applies to all things in heaven, in the earth (not) on earth, and under the sea, not just things in heaven?

 

[Thing]

I think the more appropriate statement would be You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

I agree, don’t make photographic images, (take photos).

 

[RobHom]

Maybe if a couple people could read things “literally” and not with diehard bias…they may actually come to the realization that Catholics do not worship Mary, statues, Ford;s, Edsel’s, Chevy’s, Plums, Tomatoes, Potatoes… or scuba tanks.

From here: drbo.org/chapter/02020.htm

**1 And the Lord spoke all these words: 2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth. 5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:

4 “A graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing”… All such images, or likenesses, are forbidden by this commandment, as are made to be adored and served; according to that which immediately follows, thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them. That is, all such as are designed for idols or image-gods, or are worshipped with divine honour. But otherwise images, pictures, or representations, even in the house of God, and in the very sanctuary so far from being forbidden, are expressly authorized by the word of God. See Ex. 25. 15, and etc.; chap. 38. 7; Num. 21. 8, 9; 1 Chron. or Paralip. 28. 18, 19; 2 Chron. or Paralip. 3. 10. **

The problem is that you guys totally “misunderstand” the actual meaning of the Commandment. If you take a moment to read the sources above at the end of the underlined paragraph you will find that you are in error.

God said “make no false gods or worship false gods”. Catholics do not have false gods, and do not worship false gods. Get over it, move on…

Peace!

 

[fbl9]

the memory of the just will be BLESSED,the name of the wicked will rot…can any one explain how the memory of the just is blessed.

 

[guanophore]

There really is not much difference between adoring and veneration. Just look at this prayer above and see how it puts Mary at the same level as Christ.

There is a major difference, ja4. Adoration is a form of worship, and is reserved for diety. Mary is a creature, and though highly honored and praiseworthy, it would be idolatry to give her adoration.

I think you are confusing love poetry written by the devoted with Church teaching, and they are not the same thing.

If it is any consolation, I think some people do go overboard with both penance and veneration of the saints.

 

[distracted]

Would this prayer be considered adoring or venerating Mary?

“Hail Holy Queen. It’s the most commonly recited prayer in praise of Mary, after the Hail Mary itself, and was composed at the end of the eleventh century. y.”

the angel who came to announce to her that she would be the mother of Christ, said “hail, full of grace” to her… (St. Luke 1). God made her… and made her special…

 

[theistgal]

Here is the prayer again so we can study it:
LITANY OF MARY
Lord, Father of the Mother, hear us
Lord, Spouse of the Virgin, hear us
Lord, Child of the Daughter, hear us
Lord, all in all to Our Lady, hear us

There is no doubt this is a prayer of adoration to a created being.

Nope - it’s a prayer to Our Lord (not a “created being”) asking Him to hear us.

Followed by:

…
Sure guide in the heart of the Lord, pray for us
Cause of our joy, pray for us

… a beautifully worded request to Mary to pray for us.

If we were really “adoring” Mary in the same way we adore God, we wouldn’t be asking her to pray for us - we’d be asking her to have mercy on us. See the difference?

 

[guanophore]

Are you even reading what you are posting here?

Here is the prayer again so we can study it:
LITANY OF MARY
Lord, Father of the Mother, hear us

Try to use some common sense. Who is the heavenly father of the mother of Jesus?
justasking4;4237562:

Lord, Spouse of the Virgin, hear us

Who is the Lord, who overshadowed Mary, and made her pregnant?

Lord, Child of the Daughter, hear us

If you got the first one, this will be easier. Who was born of Mary, and is Lord?

Lord, all in all to Our Lady, hear us

Who is the 'all in all" of Mary? Hint: “I am the handmaid of _____
let it be done to me according to ______ will”.

None of these phrases are addressed to a created being. Where were you in high school literature class? Have you never studied any poetry? Are you a dropout? Sorry, maybe you are, and so you don’t know how to read literature or poetry. Maybe it is not your fault, either. It may not be your fault you did not get educated, but you can sure do something about it now. If you spend half as much time at the community college as you do on these boards, you might improve that critical thinking ability.

Mother of divine mercy,

Who embodied in His flesh the mercy of God?

Carrier of the Word,

Who carried the Word made flesh in her womb?

show us your Son

What do you think the Wise men said when they came?

There is no doubt this is a prayer of adoration to a created being.

Sorry, ja4. You clearly don’t understand poetry, devtotion, or adoration either.

How is my question “anti-Catholic wishful thinking” when it is true that Mary was and is a created being?

Secondly, how is this prayer not to be taken as adoration to Mary?

Well, I am not sure what to tell you. I am not sure you can take it any other way, since you really don’t know the difference. I certainly can see why it may seem like that to you. I had a really hard time understanding shakespeare myself.

Catholics do not adore anyone but God. We consider this idolatry.

I think if you prayed this prayer, it would be idolatry for you, because you misunderstand it, so it would be better if you did not read or think about any of these things. It is better for a person whose faith is weak to avoid temptation.

Since Catholics know the difference, it is not a temptation for us.

How so? Look at some of the statements made in regards to Mary:

Delight of the Trinity

If there is all this joy in heaven over one convert…

Luke 15:7
7 Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

How much more delight will there be because Mary is willing to bring the Son of God into the world from her own womb. His coming is for the salvation of the world! Do you not think God is happy when a person is “full of grace”?

Above all the angels

Do you think that people cannot be above angels?

Conduit of pure grace

Do you not agree that Jesus is pure grace?

Hope in the resurrection

Is there some reason you do not hope in the resurrection?

Perfection of the Holy Spirit

I don’t think any of us can really dispute this, unless and until we are overshadowed as she was.

If the perfect Son of God can be created in her womb, I think that is perfection of the HS. Do you think otherwise?

Queen of the throne of creation

Do you not believe that Jesus is the throne of creation?

Mantle of all the saints

Since you don’t believe in the intercession of the saints, it will be impossible for you to grasp the reality of this.

Sure guide in the heart of the Lord

Do you think there is a better guide to the Lord than “do whatever He tells you”?

Cause of our joy

Catholics share the same joy that Elizabeth did over Mary.

Luke 1:41-45
41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? 44 For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.”

If you don’t think it was joy, what was it? Was she sad?

Can you tell me where in Scripture she is ever spoken of like this?

Right after you show me where in scripture it says that all prayers, poetry, and private devotions have to be found in scripture or they are not allowed.

These are the kinds of things that should only be said of Christ and not a created being.

Then I strongly urge you to obtain a litany of Christ, and say them regularly, as they are good food for the soul.

I also strongly urge that, since your faith and understanding are so weak, you avoid these types of devotions to Mary, so that you don’t get sidetracked.

If anyone is being specious its the church in allowing this kind of prayer to be promoted.

You are the only one here on CAF I have seen “promoting” these things, ja4.

 

[guanophore]

The temple was built by the Jews. However, we have no reason to think that they had any heavenly images of angels or God in their synagogues or homes.

If images are forbidden, then it doesn’t matter if they are in the homes or in the temple. Anytime, anywhere would be wrong, but most ESPECIALLY in the temple!

Your doctrine just does not hang together.