Adultery?

[ajecphotos]

You are too involved in your sisters personal life.

If SHE was interested in any of the answers to what you want to know, she should make an appointment with her parish priest and not have you on here asking internet strangers what we think. No one believes your sister living chastely is going to happen for very long. Why would anyone here commit to answering whether she can receive communion or not? The whole thing is ridiculous.

I am out.

Quite early on in the thread i did post that she was seeing a priest. She has seen her parish priest on a few occasions.

Yes, i am close to her and involved as i care for her. She knows my feelings about the matter but it still doesnt stop me asking advice that i can pass on.

 

[ThyKingdomCome]

I would like to make a clarification: There is a lot of talk of people “not being able to receive communion,” as though that is the end goal. Let’s remember that the end goal of a person is not to be able to receive communion at church, but to GET TO HEAVEN. If the Church is telling you you can’t receive communion, missing out on communion is NOT your biggest problem. The fact that you are possibly in the state of mortal sin is your problem. That is, after all, the reason why people are told not to receive communion - because it would be a sacrilege to receive while in a state of mortal sin. So the REAL problem faced by a person who can’t receive Communion is not that they are going without Jesus in the Eucharist, but that they are risking being without Jesus for ETERNITY. I’ll never understand why people are so focused on whether or not they can receive Communion, when none of that will matter if they don’t live long enough to repent. So please don’t forget that, “I can’t receive communion” is really a sign that “if I died tomorrow, I could end up in Hell.” And THAT is a much scarier thing, and a stronger motivation for me to make the right decisions. The Eucharist is not the end game - eternity is.

 

[MJJean]

What i am saying is that my sister is on her way to divorce from her husband. So his her ‘Friend’. They have both agreed to be chaste.

Now, if they then, after the divorces are final, move in together and remain chaste, can she still receive Holy Communion? They wont get married. Just live together but live a chaste life.

I do know of some people who live together in a chaste life. This is possible with pray and determination.

Could she still receive Holy Communion if the above is carried out?

Umm, your sister couldn’t keep herself under control emotionally and for a time physically while living with her HUSBAND. Why on Earth would anyone think she would be able to maintain self control while living with her paramour?

If she honestly thinks they will remain chaste she’s delusional.

 

[EasterJoy]

What i am saying is that my sister is on her way to divorce from her husband. So his her ‘Friend’. They have both agreed to be chaste.

Now, if they then, after the divorces are final, move in together and remain chaste, can she still receive Holy Communion? They wont get married. Just live together but live a chaste life.

I do know of some people who live together in a chaste life. This is possible with pray and determination.

Could she still receive Holy Communion if the above is carried out?

Lovers who live together and yet remain chaste? Only if they are parents who are not free to marry each other and they have decided to stay in the same house living as brother and sister, for the sake of their children having both parents in the house. Otherwise, why would you do that to yourselves? The possible is far more possible if you don’t put yourself in serious danger of failing at it every night.

She should not plan on doing this. I cannot imagine her priest suggesting such a thing. You shouldn’t, either, and you should reject any plan she has to do this as unrealistic.

The sensible course is for these two to finish the work in their own marriages of communicating with their spouses and discerning how the attempt at marriage they intended failed to produce a union in which the spouses could live together for life. That is very very important work, and they should not give it the least slight. If they can’t work on that with their spouses, they ought to work on it alone. Finish that first, before moving on to something or someone else.

If the divorces go through, then it is time to look at whether the attempts were valid or invalid. When that is established, then if either of them is not free to marry the other, then they should act like it. They should not think about marriage or “dating” until they are free to marry, and they should not live together until they are married, because they don’t have a compelling reason (such as children) forcing them into such a difficult and spiritually hazardous situation. (Make no mistake: Difficult and very hazardous is what that is.)

 

[ajecphotos]

Thanks everyone for your great advice, of which i have passed on.

My sisters marriage is def finished as is her friends. They are in the process of divorce. This has been stated.

She and he both ‘love’ each other and are more than willing to live a chaste life when they ‘eventually’ get to live together after the divorces. This ‘IS’ going to happen!

What my sister wants to know is can she receive Holy Communion if she lives with this guy, without marriage and in a Chaste life? They love each other so much that being together is more important than sex! Its all about love!!

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

Thanks everyone for your great advice, of which i have passed on.

My sisters marriage is def finished as is her friends. They are in the process of divorce. This has been stated.

She and he both ‘love’ each other and are more than willing to live a chaste life when they ‘eventually’ get to live together after the divorces. This ‘IS’ going to happen!

What my sister wants to know is can she receive Holy Communion if she lives with this guy, without marriage and in a Chaste life? They love each other so much that being together is more important than sex! Its all about love!!

What your sister needs to do is talk to a knowledgeable priest. I would think the sin of scandal would be involved. How is a non romantic relationship with this guy going to work out?
Are they going to attempt marriage? I think you know way too much about your sister’s sexual habits and I am questioning your involvement at all.

 

[ajecphotos]

What your sister needs to do is talk to a knowledgeable priest. I would think the sin of scandal would be involved. How is a non romantic relationship with this guy going to work out?
Are they going to attempt marriage? I think you know way too much about your sister’s sexual habits and I am questioning your involvement at all.

Like i said before. i am her twin brother. We are close. Need i say anymore? We have been through a lot together!

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks everyone for your great advice, of which i have passed on.

My sisters marriage is def finished as is her friends. They are in the process of divorce. This has been stated.

She and he both ‘love’ each other and are more than willing to live a chaste life when they ‘eventually’ get to live together after the divorces. This ‘IS’ going to happen!

What my sister wants to know is can she receive Holy Communion if she lives with this guy, without marriage and in a Chaste life? They love each other so much that being together is more important than sex! Its all about love!!

I do not doubt the earnestness of their intentions, but do you want to take any bets on how the “chaste life” plan works out for them? She’s your twin sister, you love her, but come on. She and her lover aren’t re-writing the script of humankind. This little drama has been lived out before. It does not end as planned. The characters don’t see it coming, but the whole audience does. It is the stuff of tragedy.

Tell your sister that if she wants real answers about this, she needs to honestly explain the entire situation to her pastor. Is he going to give her the go-ahead to live with a guy she is not married to? No. Is he going to give her the go-ahead to marry someone when the Church has not found them free to marry? No. Is he going to let her sit and split hairs about whether this hare-brained plunge into a scandalous living situation and the constant near occasion of sin is a venial or a mortal sin? Please. No, he isn’t. But maybe she needs to hear it from a priest.

 

[ajecphotos]

Look, she is not going to remain in her present marriage, that is a fact.

She and her ‘friend’ are more than happy to live a chaste life once they ‘eventually’ get to live together. This is without marrying! She has said she doesnt want to marry again! But, she wants to live with this guy ‘ONLY’ when she has been divorced and he too. Not before!

Once together they are planning to live a chaste life.

This can be done if one is serious. Being chaste can be accomplished if one has belief in God and what one wants in life. My sister and her friend both want this! It wont be easy but they want this. She has betrayed God in not being able to stay at her marriage. He doesnt want to betray him anymore by (a) marrying again (b) having a sexual relationship.

I believe she can do this. I know her and i know how strong she can be. Ok, she has not been able to stay in her marriage but she has tried, for many many years! It just couldnt go on! Same as her friend.

I know she should stick at her marriage but that is impossible. I know what it has been like for her and her husband. Both have told me they want out. So, divorce is definitely happening.

Now, does she then quit her new friend/love? She cant! She loves him so much and he her. But, she loves God so much that she has said, she will not marry again and will not enter into a sexual relationship!! It can be done with Gods help!!

 

[dreamer29]

Ok, married for 30 years. Gets very friendly with a member of opposite sex who is also married. No sex. But cuddles, holding hands. Comforting and loving. Both agree to no sex at all.

Both sets of partners are non loving so that is why above has happened.

Is the above adultery?

Answer to question, not adultery. However, there is no doubt that may very well lead to adultery. Face it, it has to start some where and what better tenderness is there than that described.

Both parties need to reexamine their love for each other if they lack tenderness to each other.

 

[EasterJoy]

Answer to question, not adultery. However, there is no doubt that may very well lead to adultery. Face it, it has to start some where and what better tenderness is there than that described.

Both parties need to reexamine their love for each other if they lack tenderness to each other.

Yes. If one wants to get juridical about it, one can argue it does not violate the 6th Commandment to a mortal degree.

That is a very foolish thing for a soul to do. Conscience will say that it certainly violates the 6th and 9th Commandments, because these two are cultivating a spousal affection with each other, and in so doing they are violating the emotional exclusivity that their spouses ought to be able to expect by reason of their marriage vows. There is not “your brand of love doesn’t cut it as love with me” escape clause.

 

[EasterJoy]

Look, she is not going to remain in her present marriage, that is a fact.

She and her ‘friend’ are more than happy to live a chaste life once they ‘eventually’ get to live together. This is without marrying! She has said she doesnt want to marry again! But, she wants to live with this guy ‘ONLY’ when she has been divorced and he too. Not before!

Once together they are planning to live a chaste life.

This can be done if one is serious. Being chaste can be accomplished if one has belief in God and what one wants in life. My sister and her friend both want this! It wont be easy but they want this. She has betrayed God in not being able to stay at her marriage. He doesnt want to betray him anymore by (a) marrying again (b) having a sexual relationship.

I believe she can do this. I know her and i know how strong she can be. Ok, she has not been able to stay in her marriage but she has tried, for many many years! It just couldnt go on! Same as her friend.

I know she should stick at her marriage but that is impossible. I know what it has been like for her and her husband. Both have told me they want out. So, divorce is definitely happening.

Now, does she then quit her new friend/love? She cant! She loves him so much and he her. But, she loves God so much that she has said, she will not marry again and will not enter into a sexual relationship!! It can be done with Gods help!!

She may have morally permissible grounds to separate with the bond remaining and may have done all the work necessary to discern that–that is not the issue. That situation does not mean she is morally free to marry or to pursue romantic relationships with men who are not her husband.

Yes, she can quit her new friend, because she is not free to have a lover who is not her husband. She does not want to, but she can choose to. She is not trapped in the new relationship by her desire stay in it. If she thinks she is, then she is not strong. She is weak. Oh, how many people–especially priests and religious!!–have fallen to this sort of self-deception! It is the way the evil one traps the ones who would otherwise be closest Our Lord, if not for the patient work of the one who prowls the world, seeking the ruin of souls!

If she truly wants this to be a chaste relationship, then she ought to treat it as if if were a friendship that a priest would carry on with a religious sister. In other words, she needs to avoid both the near occasion of sin and the appearance of a sexual relationship. If she and her friend allow themselves more, they are not being chaste. They are also playing with fire, and inviting mortal sin. We are not told to be cavalier about our ability to resist temptation, but to prudently avoid its snares! The strength we have is sufficient to carry us through the temptations we cannot avoid; we should not tempt fate by inviting more temptation than that!

 

[MJJean]

If they are determined to be chaste and remain platonic friends then they have absolutely zero reason to live together. Whatever chaste friendship only they plan on practicing they can do it in separate apartments.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

If they are determined to be chaste and remain platonic friends then they have absolutely zero reason to live together. Whatever chaste friendship only they plan on practicing they can do it in separate apartments.

Absolutely!

 

[EasterJoy]

If they are determined to be chaste and remain platonic friends then they have absolutely zero reason to live together. Whatever chaste friendship only they plan on practicing they can do it in separate apartments.

On the money.

 

[ajecphotos]

But, 2 people can live together, who adore each other and remain chaste!

Being ‘together’ is more important than sex. More important than ‘existing’ alone.

My sister is trying all ways to do the right thing in God’s eyes.

Ok, she is massively sinning but her marriage is over! What is she meant to do? Live a life without someone to love or for her to love? Is she doomed to live alone with no love? Is that what God wants?

Remember, she is getting divorced!

Thanks people and God Bless you all

 

[EasterJoy]

But, 2 people can live together, who adore each other and remain chaste!

Being ‘together’ is more important than sex. More important than ‘existing’ alone.

My sister is trying all ways to do the right thing in God’s eyes.

Ok, she is massively sinning but her marriage is over! What is she meant to do? Live a life without someone to love or for her to love? Is she doomed to live alone with no love? Is that what God wants?

Remember, she is getting divorced!

Thanks people and God Bless you all

Most people who try what she is proposing do not succeed at it. If she were proposing a Josephite marriage, that would be one thing, but she is talking about moving in with someone when she is not free to marry. And if she and this fellow were free to marry, would they honestly be *even considering *a Josephite marriage? She needs to be very honest about that, because the chances are extremely high that her answer would be a resounding NO. So how is this all, “we’re going to be chaste in the same house, living as man and wife in every other respect” thing going to work out?

Where did she get this idea that a person without a romantic partner is a person without love in their life? Did she tell you that, or are you making that assumption? St. Paul said it is better not to marry, since it allows us to devote ourselves to the Lord without distraction, excepting those who are “on fire,” and by that he obviously meant those who could only stay chaste by being married to someone. If that is in the Scriptures, then yes, obviously God does not think it is some horrible loveless fate to be an unmarried Christian! Compared to the married life, the life of the unmarried leaves them more free to do the will of God and more free to pursue their education in the radical love proposed by the Gospel!

Let’s back up. Let her take this one day at a time. Finish up the work with her current marriage. If that leads inexorably to divorce, OK, perhaps that cannot be helped. There are morally permissible civil divorces, even with the bond remaining. Then perhaps she can look into whether or not her marriage failed because it was invalid.

If that proves to be so for her and her friend, then they can consider marriage.

If one of them is not free to marry, they should not consider themselves free to live with each other, not even in a pseudo-Josephite situation. If she doubts that, she can float this by her pastor. She won’t get a different answer.

 

[EnglishTeacher]

If they are determined to be chaste and remain platonic friends then they have absolutely zero reason to live together. Whatever chaste friendship only they plan on practicing they can do it in separate apartments.

Exactly.

ajecphotos:

But, 2 people can live together, who adore each other and remain chaste!

Being ‘together’ is more important than sex. More important than ‘existing’ alone.

My sister is trying all ways to do the right thing in God’s eyes.

Ok, she is massively sinning but her marriage is over! What is she meant to do? Live a life without someone to love or for her to love? Is she doomed to live alone with no love? Is that what God wants?

Remember, she is getting divorced!

Thanks people and God Bless you all

There is just no common sense in this idea. If she is trying to do what is right in God’s eyes, she should give up the idea of living with a romantic partner. That is just nonsense.

Besides, a divorce only affects her marriage in the eyes of the civil law. The Church teaches that she is still married and presumes her marriage to be valid unless proven otherwise (i.e., a declaration of nullity from the Church). She shouldn’t be dating or having any romantic relationships, much less living with someone, unless and until her marriage is declared null. (Same goes for her “friend,” of course.)

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

But, 2 people can live together, who adore each other and remain chaste!

Being ‘together’ is more important than sex. More important than ‘existing’ alone.

My sister is trying all ways to do the right thing in God’s eyes.

Ok, she is massively sinning but her marriage is over! What is she meant to do? Live a life without someone to love or for her to love? Is she doomed to live alone with no love? Is that what God wants?

Remember, she is getting divorced!

Thanks people and God Bless you all

I am not sure what you whole point in continuing to pursue this is. Are you looking for Catholics here to condone obvious sin? Are you advocating for the Holiness of your sister? Or are you just bound and determined to justify unjustifiable actions to rouse others and tear down long held beliefs?

 

[MJJean]

But, 2 people can live together, who adore each other and remain chaste!

Being ‘together’ is more important than sex. More important than ‘existing’ alone.

My sister is trying all ways to do the right thing in God’s eyes.

Ok, she is massively sinning but her marriage is over! What is she meant to do? Live a life without someone to love or for her to love? Is she doomed to live alone with no love? Is that what God wants?

Remember, she is getting divorced!

Thanks people and God Bless you all

There is still zero reason for them to live together. If they aren’t going to enter into a valid marriage and are determined to stay chaste until they have both gotten annulments and are free to marry then what purpose does living together serve?

If they want to be friends and emotionally support each other they don’t need to be under the same roof to do it. Billions of friends have close and loving relationships with each other and are each others support system without sharing a home.

It’s really simple. The Church considers them both married unless both of their marriages are investigated and declared null.

If they have a romantic attachment it’s adultery and they have no business living together before being declared free to marry and entering into a valid marriage.

If they are just platonic friends they have no reason to live together.

Ajecphotos, I am not living in a glass house and throwing stones. I am in an invalid civil marriage myself. I live with my husband, raise our children together, share everything from our most personal selves to our bodies to our finances. I am an adulteress.

The key difference is that

1. When I got myself into my situation I was ignorant of the true nature of marriage and thought there was nothing wrong with what I was doing. I had no concept of marriage truly being for life and I believed divorce could dissolve a marriage leaving one free to remarry. I didn’t know any better. I had never been taught better as a child by my family nor as an adult by society. If I knew then what I know now I’d like to think I would never have behaved as I did.

and

1. I own my mistakes and accept responsibility for my situation. And, once I was made aware of the nature of marriage and that my marriage wasn’t valid I took immediate steps to regularize my marriage.

Your sister does know better and so do you. Both of you are rationalizing and making excuses to justify her actions and her plans. You’re acting like this is something that just happened to her and is completely outside of her control. You’re not acknowledging that her inappropriate friendship, “falling in love”, sneaking around to be with her paramour, lying to her husband, and filing for civil divorce are all choices she made.