Advice Please - Wife Going Overboard

[TheRealJuliane]

Thank you everyone for your kind replies. Please keep them coming. I am so glad to see that I am not crazy and that in fact even devout Catholics have to have some balance in their lives! This situation has been escalating and I am literally at my wit’s end.

To answer some of your questions, dshix…

The parish we are associated with is a normal parish. It’s just a regular diocesan one. There is no Latin Mass at our parish.

The Latin Mass is said at another diocesan parish in the next town over. They say one Latin mass per Sunday and it is attended mostly by these types of huge homeschool families, all EXTREMELY conservative and, yes, dowdy. It’s a weird thing. The attendees are very cliquish and don’t consider themselves a part of that parish at all. It is “their” Mass. They have their own priest who comes in just for that liturgy and you would never see those families at a regular mass, or at any parish functions. If that priest were to cancel that Mass due to illness or something, they’d drive 40 minutes to the next Latin Mass before they’d go to a regular mass. They are very separate from the rest of that parish, it is almost as though they use that church for their purposes but don’t really want anything else to do with it (the school, the clubs, the service groups, etc.)

I have noticed a sort of “revolution” in these young families where they take things to the extreme and their entire lives get wrapped up in Catholicism to the point where they no longer relate normally in the world, especially the women and kids. I think this is a reaction to the loosey-goosey 70s, 80s and 90s and you know how the pendulum swings one way and then the other - I kind of get the impression from “Susie” and her kind that the pendulum has simply swung all the way over to the over the top side. It’s really hard to reason with these women because to them, more Catholicism is always better, to no end, and anyone who suggests they chill out and let their kids be normal is trying to lead them into sin.

My grandmother, who was a first-generation American German Catholic, wasn’t even this devout - and she went to Mass every day. She at least let her kids go to school and didn’t constantly feed them ideas about joining convents.

These kinds of cultish segments of homeschoolers are more common in the fundamentalist Protestant world. I think these women are homeschoolers/unschoolers first, and Catholics second. In other words, their dress and behavior fits with the homeschooling population, at least a certain segment of it. And then, because those types of homeschoolers tend to be fundamentalist, the Catholic contingent are also fundamentalist. So you have 2 separate influences working here: the homeschooling population, and the fundamentalist Catholic population (overlapped).

Tough problem. Your wife needs to spend less time with these people. I would definitely say “absolutely not” to the homeschooling. Your kids are doing fine in school - the school is good - The reason she wants them to come home is that she is reacting to OTHERS’ lives and not your family’s life. She really is not thinking of her children’s best interests, but an ideological stance. Cutting off the cable was a pretty radical thing for her to do without consulting you. If you wish to have it, I’d get it turned back on. This would have to be discussed, probably in a session with a counselor.

You can approach this as you would if she were making any other drastic change in her behavior. What would you do if she suddenly decided to wear only very short skirts and low-cut tops, and stop going to church? What if she started smoking and urged your children to smoke too? What if she dressed your daughters in inappropriate clothing and taught them how to swear? I’m not saying she is necessarily HARMING your children with her actions, but the drastic change in behavior is a signal of something going on inside her that needs to be addressed.

Your children are not just hers to raise as she wishes, so she can’t just withdraw from the world and take the whole family with her. What do the kids say about all of this religiosity from their mom? If they were teens, they might already be rebelling.

 

[StTMore]

I absolutely love the Latin Mass and many of the old traditions, but not for my children - at least not until they’re old enough to appreciate it. I think we all need to recognize what was lacking in the Church pre-Vatican II. Vatican II was an evangelical coucil. It’s purpose was not to become the culture, but to reach out to it. There is nothing wrong with being traditional, so long as we don’t become Pharisees. We can’t build up walls around ourselves and isolate entirely from the outside world. We need to live in the world, but not be of the world. Certainly we need to relate to sinners, but not become sinners. St. Paul says it best in 1 Corithians 9:22 To the weak I became weak, that I might gain the weak. I became all things to all men, that I might save all.

Can I suggest checking out some of Fr. Barron’s youtube commentaries and maybe showing them to your wife? He’s a wonderful theologian that explains these issues very clearly. Maybe you’re being challenged to learn your faith even better, there’s always room for improvement!

 

[floresco]

A lot of you are using the word traditional… But I don’t think that’s what this is. We already had a traditional family and followed the Church’s teachings. I grew up as the youngest of 7 and so even though I am 36, my parents were both in their 40s when they had me so they grew up pre-Vatican II. They were very “traditional” - Sunday Mass was at 8 and we were to be in suits and ties, family rosary, my mom took all of us to confession once a month, Catholic schools, holy water font in the house, my grandma wore a black veil to mass until she died in 1990…

But my mom still went out with dad, dressed up for him, shared a bottle of wine with him at dinner, we all played with non-Catholics on the block, my sister was a cheerleader, we played football and my mom was cheering at every game, we watched some TV, mom played Bunco with her friends… I don’t know what tradition my wife wants to follow but it does not look like what I recall as a traditional Catholic family. This goes way beyond what family life probably looked like for my parents. I mean, in what era were families homeschooling and dressing in sacks and covering their hair full time and pulling away from society?

I just want to be clear that our family was and is traditional, but all this extra stuff is what is getting to me.

It might be clearer to call what your wife is attracted to “traditionalist Catholicism”. It may be useful for you to read this wikipedia article to get some background on it:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_Catholic
It is not just your wife and her friends. It is a widespread movement. If you go over to the Traditional Catholic subforum here on CAF you will find other traditionalists. I am a traditionalist. I am pretty sure that I am not crazy.

The more you can understand her beliefs the better you will be able to deal with this situation.

 

[Sunbreak]

Talk to your wife about your concerns. It’s the only way things are going to get worked out. Even in pre-Vatican 2 days, women didn’t always wear dresses and skirts all the time. Sports and things like that were not forbidden - there was a girl’s basketball team at my Catholic grade school.
Not everyone is suited to homeschooling and it really isn’t fair to the kids to pull them away from schools they like and are thriving in and keep them away from their friends. The successful homeschooling people I know still send their kids to other supplemental classes outside of home to get a more balanced experience.
It sounds like your wife sort of just “discovered” this more strict approach and decided to immerse herself in it. Maybe the fascination will pass and it’ll tone down some. Most homeschooling moms I am acquainted with aren’t so extreme in their approach.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

It might be clearer to call what your wife is attracted to “traditionalist Catholicism”. It may be useful for you to read this wikipedia article to get some background on it:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_Catholic
It is not just your wife and her friends. It is a widespread movement. If you go over to the Traditional Catholic subforum here on CAF you will find other traditionalists. I am a traditionalist. I am pretty sure that I am not crazy.

The more you can understand her beliefs the better you will be able to deal with this situation.

That’s all well and good, but to go in that direction with no cooperation from her husband - it’s not as if she is alone raising “her” children. She is trying to please her friends, not her husband. Who is she married to, anyway?? These friends, or her husband? It’s one thing if BOTH spouses see a need to be more “traditional” or whatever - it’s another thing for one of the spouses/parents to just move off in another direction entirely.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Talk to your wife about your concerns. It’s the only way things are going to get worked out. Even in pre-Vatican 2 days, women didn’t always wear dresses and skirts all the time. Sports and things like that were not forbidden - there was a girl’s basketball team at my Catholic grade school.
Not everyone is suited to homeschooling and it really isn’t fair to the kids to pull them away from schools they like and are thriving in and keep them away from their friends. The successful homeschooling people I know still send their kids to other supplemental classes outside of home to get a more balanced experience.
It sounds like your wife sort of just “discovered” this more strict approach and decided to immerse herself in it. Maybe the fascination will pass and it’ll tone down some. Most homeschooling moms I am acquainted with aren’t so extreme in their approach.

I have to admit, when I was immersed in homeschooling, I was going to do a rather extreme approach. Not Catholic, but very different to what most homeschoolers do. I thought it made perfect sense, but my husband did not agree, not really. He merely gave in to my determined badgering, temporarily. And my son fought me from the start. 3 weeks into the school year, with my husband not on board and my son fighting me, I gave up and he went to a Catholic middle school. Now I wish I hadn’t pushed so hard to keep him home in the first place. I think it was MY idea about what he needed, and not what he really needed, that drove me. I got caught up in the concept and the results others had. I meant well, but as it turned out, I think my son’s take-away was that he wasn’t capable of handling middle school, and he was less than intelligent or something.

I still think it could have worked, but over time I have let go of the image I had of this perfect homeschooled kid and life. It would have been very isolating, and made him very odd amongst his peers (no TV, etc.). It made sense to me, but my own mind can sometimes be a very dangerous neighborhood to travel in alone.

 

[Anglewannabe]

My first though is that something has been bothering your wife and she has found this group of women as an outlet.

Perhaps just the responsibility of being in the home with 5 kids has gotten to her and she needed a break. Because a break is not possible, she started to act out by joining this group. I really think there is something deeper here troubling your wife. Has one of her parents or siblings dies recently? Does she have a medical problem? Or is she simply burned out by being a stay at home mom?

Maybe if she had a few interests (outside of the church) and a bit of free time, ie would it be possible to get a sitter while you are at work so she can go for a facial? it may be the cure she needs.

I honestly don’t think this is really about becoming more devout

 

[Delta1977]

My first though is that something has been bothering your wife and she has found this group of women as an outlet.

Perhaps just the responsibility of being in the home with 5 kids has gotten to her and she needed a break. Because a break is not possible, she started to act out by joining this group. I really think there is something deeper here troubling your wife. Has one of her parents or siblings dies recently? Does she have a medical problem? Or is she simply burned out by being a stay at home mom?

Maybe if she had a few interests (outside of the church) and a bit of free time, ie would it be possible to get a sitter while you are at work so she can go for a facial? it may be the cure she needs.

I honestly don’t think this is really about becoming more devout

She knows that her mom or my sister can relieve her whenever she wants. They are always happy to babysit. She used to do normal stuff with girlfriends (moms night out, Bible study, book club, spa days) but most of that has fallen to the wayside per her, not me. Now, she says she “doesn’t leave her children.” Yes, we used to use sitters to go out to dinner and such.

No one in her life has passed away recently, my wife is not sick. I think honestly the supercatholics just made her feel like our family was inadequate : (

 

[novelista]

Sounds to me like she could be lonely and depressed, and has latched onto these women as a group of friends where she can fit in. I agree with the others that you should seek counseling, with a priest or therapist.

 

[russet1]

She knows that her mom or my sister can relieve her whenever she wants. They are always happy to babysit. She used to do normal stuff with girlfriends (moms night out, Bible study, book club, spa days) but most of that has fallen to the wayside per her, not me. Now, she says she “doesn’t leave her children.” Yes, we used to use sitters to go out to dinner and such.

No one in her life has passed away recently, my wife is not sick. I think honestly the supercatholics just made her feel like our family was inadequate : (

You keep describing her symptoms and manifestations of changes but then only offer conjecture and assumptions as to why she does these things.
You have been given two great pieces of advice. Talk to the priest. And talk to HER!

PS
It is always amazing to me the judgements that come to those who live differently than us.
The propper terms are not “dresses like she lives on the prarie” and “supercatholic”
I urge you to LISTEN to your wife and try to understand what she is needing and communicating. If what she is doing could be spiritually challenging but beneficial for your family you should consider that. If she is being unhealthy you can deal with that too. But judging an entire group of people who practice their faith differently than we do is not going to help your marriage.

The responses would probably be different if it was the husband who decided that Lutheran was the way to go with the family.
We must charitably assume that she is Catholic who is finding a deep spirituality in her life. It may very well be God’s call to her to lead in this aspect.
You should learn about your faith and if what she is saying is compatible with the Catholic faith.
We often marvel at the woman who goes to Church and prays every day for her husband to be sitting there with her on Sundays but when it happens in a Traditional setting somehow we think it dangerous.
The husband and wife need to talk. AND they need to talk with a good priest or priests!

 

[Xantippe]

“We must charitably assume that she is Catholic who is finding a deep spirituality in her life.”

How about, “we must charitably assume that she is a Catholic who is SEARCHING for a deep spirituality.” It doesn’t sound like it’s making her more virtuous, more peaceful, or a better wife.

 

[underacloud]

You should learn about your faith and if what she is saying is compatible with the Catholic faith.

I agree with this.

If you, the OP, show her that your faith (as you live it) is ever bit as well informed as hers, it will go a long way to helping her see that there are many different styles (for want of a better word) of faith that are entirely compatible with Catholic teaching.

It should also help you to sniff out whether some of the advice she has been getting from her new friends is from SSPX and sedevacantists.

It can also help to differentiate between moral choices (eg modesty in dressing) and lifestyle choices (eg girls playing sport) that have no basis whatsoever in Church teaching.

 

[Delta1977]

You keep describing her symptoms and manifestations of changes but then only offer conjecture and assumptions as to why she does these things.
You have been given two great pieces of advice. Talk to the priest. And talk to HER!

PS
It is always amazing to me the judgements that come to those who live differently than us.
The propper terms are not “dresses like she lives on the prarie” and “supercatholic”
I urge you to LISTEN to your wife and try to understand what she is needing and communicating. If what she is doing could be spiritually challenging but beneficial for your family you should consider that. If she is being unhealthy you can deal with that too. But judging an entire group of people who practice their faith differently than we do is not going to help your marriage.

The responses would probably be different if it was the husband who decided that Lutheran was the way to go with the family.
We must charitably assume that she is Catholic who is finding a deep spirituality in her life. It may very well be God’s call to her to lead in this aspect.
You should learn about your faith and if what she is saying is compatible with the Catholic faith.
We often marvel at the woman who goes to Church and prays every day for her husband to be sitting there with her on Sundays but when it happens in a Traditional setting somehow we think it dangerous.
The husband and wife need to talk. AND they need to talk with a good priest or priests!

Hi Russet1,

I am very well educated on my faith, but thank you for the suggestion. My wife is not praying for me to become Catholic because I already am. She is praying for me to adopt a bunch of radical customs and lifestyle changes that were never a part of our marriage bargain. I am definitely in the pew with her every single Sunday worshiping the very same Christ as she is.

I have talked with my wife a lot about this, but she always has the last word with, “Why would you have a problem with our family being closer to God and closer to living His way?” My response is that God does not ask us to do all these things. I have tried to compromise with her (i.e. I have not said a word about her church hair covering even though I dislike it) but I do have to draw a line when it comes to the children being raised this way. It’s just hard because all my objections just seem like I’m being unholy to her. She just accuses me of not taking my role as spiritual leader properly.
This hurts and honestly makes me angry because I do take that job very seriously.

 

[underacloud]

I have talked with my wife a lot about this, but she always has the last word with, “Why would you have a problem with our family being closer to God and closer to living His way?” My response is that God does not ask us to do all these things. I have tried to compromise with her (i.e. I have not said a word about her church hair covering even though I dislike it) but I do have to draw a line when it comes to the children being raised this way. It’s just hard because all my objections just seem like I’m being unholy to her. She just accuses me of not taking my role as spiritual leader properly.
This hurts and honestly makes me angry because I do take that job very seriously.

This sounds very tough. But since she is seemingly goading you, perhaps it is time to start taking your “role as spiritual leader” a little more seriously; by which I mean, being more forceful/authoritative in these matters. Perhaps it’s time to challenge her…

You should challenge her to show that the lifestyle she advocates is “His way”, rather than private devotions that the faithful may make, but are not bound to.

You can explain to her that you will not impose any private devotions - such as covering head in Church, preference for the Latin mass, scapulars, etc - on the family. She is free to do these, but that you and the children are under no obligation.

You should explain that you do want to be “closer to God” and that you find it easier to draw close to God through the ordinary liturgy than through the Latin liturgy (assuming you don’t speak fluent latin). By all means compromise and go to her preferred liturgy on occasion, but do not acknowledge in any way the rather insulting (IMO) notion that the Latin liturgy is in some way superior, more holy, etc… (I personally hate that sort of attitude).

I doub this will resolve much immediately, but will at least challenge her insinuation that your faith is lagging behind, or that her way is holier. And a meeting with a good priest can help you two balance out these issues.

 

[10thCrusader]

Hi Russet1,

I am very well educated on my faith, but thank you for the suggestion. My wife is not praying for me to become Catholic because I already am. She is praying for me to adopt a bunch of radical customs and lifestyle changes that were never a part of our marriage bargain. I am definitely in the pew with her every single Sunday worshiping the very same Christ as she is.

I have talked with my wife a lot about this, but she always has the last word with, “Why would you have a problem with our family being closer to God and closer to living His way?” My response is that God does not ask us to do all these things. I have tried to compromise with her (i.e. I have not said a word about her church hair covering even though I dislike it) but I do have to draw a line when it comes to the children being raised this way. It’s just hard because all my objections just seem like I’m being unholy to her. She just accuses me of not taking my role as spiritual leader properly.
This hurts and honestly makes me angry because I do take that job very seriously.

OK, you’ve talked to her. Now take the second piece of advice and both of you go talk to the priest at the Mass she is attending. He may help her realize that she doesn’t need to do all these extreme things to be a good Catholic. She should at least listen to him.

This is almost a role-reversal of what I have observed at the EF Mass. Usually, it’s the guys dragging their wives or girlfriends to the EF Mass when the women want to go to the OF Mass.

 

[Annie39]

Hi,
A little background about me first. I too will receive the Eucharist only from a man. If possible only from a Priest or Deacon and am grieved if I cannot and I even cross the isle to do so. Ask me why sometime if you want to know. I love the Tridentine Mass but attend the NO for the most part for a couple of reasons that I won’t get into.

So, having said this, I thought that I would give my opinion. I know a person who is exactly like your wife. She even raised her Children for a time in (all I can think to call it is) a commune of her co-religionists. She is ex-Catholic Seventh Day Adventist. She truly hates the Catholic Church; it seems to make her feel like she is a better person just for doing so. This person I know is obsessive. In her case she is obsessively anti-Catholic and obsessively old style Adventist. I think that your wife’s problem may be due to obsession and not the Church per se. IMHO, take it for what it is worth. I believe that you owe it to your children to take the reins here.

Annie

 

[aspirant]

My two oldest children are daughters. My wife is now wanting them to wear skirts or dresses full time, and has said she has concerns about them being involved in competitive sports teams because that does not help foster their femininity and their future vocations as either mothers or nuns. I just about blew a gasket on that one. Our girls love playing basketball and golf, as well as running track for their school. They wear jeans, slacks, shorts, skirts, and dresses and I refuse to have them be put into a domestic mold at this age. They are kids and deserve the opportunities to pursue their interests without being pigeonholed by my wife who wants to turn them into submissive women.

You’ve received a lot of good advice that I don’t want to repeat. I do have something more to offer, however, on this point. It sounds to me like you’re a great dad and want the best for your children, especially, here, your daughters.

I was going to recommend a book to you, but sadly it’s out of print and used copies are ludicrously expensive. Fortunately, almost all of it is available online for free, and you can print and read it at your leisure!

Here’s an excerpt I would consider relevant to what you said above:
Blessed John Paul II:

It is a “sign of the times” that woman’s role is increasingly recognized, not only in the family circle, but also in the wider context of all social activities. Without the contribution of women, society is less alive, culture impoverished, and peace less stable. Situations where women are prevented from developing their full potential and from offering the wealth of their gifts should therefore be considered profoundly unjust, not only to women themselves but to society as a whole.

So this book is for you (and any other readers here who want it) as a Dad who wants his daughters to have the opportunity to fully develop their unique gifts and talents. Whether and how you share it with others is up to you.

• World Day of Peace Message: Women as Teachers of Peace by Pope John Paul II, 1 January 1995
• Message on the 4th UN Conference on Women (by Pope John Paul II, 26 May 1995
• Angelus Message: Culture of Equality Urgently Needed by Pope John Paul II, 25 June 1995
• Angelus Message: Men and Women Must Live for Each Other by Pope John Paul II, 9 July 1995
• Angelus Message: Mission of Motherhood by Pope John Paul II, 16 July 1995
• Angelus Message: Society and the Church Need the Genius of Woman by Pope John Paul II, 23 July 1995
• Angelus Message: History Needs to Include Women’s Contributions by Pope John Paul II, 30 July 1995
• Angelus Message: Culture Needs Women’s Genius by Pope John Paul II, 6 August 1995
• Angelus Message: Equal Opportunity Still Urgently Needed by Pope John Paul II, 20 August 1995
• Angelus Message: Women Have Much to Offer in Political Life by Pope John Paul II, 25 August 1995
• Papal Appeal on Behalf of Women for UN Beijing Conference by Pope John Paul II, 29 August 1995
• Angelus Message: Enhance Women’s Role in Church Life by Pope John Paul II, 3 September 1995
• World Communications Day Message: The Media, Modern Forum for Promoting the Role of Women in Society by Pope John Paul II, 24 January 1996
• Address to the International Conference on “Women’s Health Issues” by Pope John Paul II, 20 February 1998
• Angelus Message: Women’s Rights Must Be Duly Recognized by Pope John Paul II, 8 March 1998
• General Audience: Woman as Masterpiece of God’s Creation by Pope John Paul II, 24 November 1999
• Universal Prayer: Confession of Sins and Asking for Forgiveness by Pope John Paul II, 12 March 2000
• Apostolic Exhortation: Familiaris Consortio (On the Role of the Family in the Modern World) by Pope John Paul II
• Apostolic Letter: Mulieris Dignitatem (On the Dignity and Vocation of Women) by Pope John Paul II, 15 August 1988
• Letter to Women by Pope John Paul II, 29 June 1995

 

[Rosary_Girl_1]

How about, “we must charitably assume that she is a Catholic who is SEARCHING for a deep spirituality.” It doesn’t sound like it’s making her more virtuous, more peaceful, or a better wife.

I agree.

She just accuses me of not taking my role as spiritual leader properly.
This hurts and honestly makes me angry because I do take that job very seriously.

It sounds like she doesn’t like how you are “leading” and she wants to take the reins and be in charge.

I had this same attitude for a while. I became enamored with the “Traditional” culture right before I got married. I was going to home school, wear a head covering at all times - especially when I left the house, wear long skirts and jumpers, go to Latin Mass, the whole nine yards. I was going to be a “good wife”. I was really upset that my fiance (later husband) didn’t want to go along on my faith journey, but after a long talk and some serious prayer, I realized that all those things were “externals”. What mattered most was living according to God’s will instead of my own, and that’s when I dropped my “holy Catholic” act in favor of converting my heart. I learned that pleasing my husband and creating a harmonious home was more important to me than what anyone else thought. I made the following my personal motto: “God first, family second, and everyone else after that.”

If your wife won’t have a real conversation with you and “submit” to your headship of the family, then definitely have a meeting (or two, or three) with the priest who presides at the Latin Mass. In the mean time, tell her what you will not agree to (pulling the children out of school to home school them, pulling your daughters out of sports, forcing your children to wear nothing but skirts, giving up gong to the OF Mass, etc.) and what you will agree to. She’s an adult and can choose her own clothes, but tell her what you find more attractive than her current frumpy clothes. She should be interested in pleasing you - her husband - above all other humans.

 

[robert7685]

Okay, after pondering this for a little, I have some more to share.

It is possible that she is just being overzealous since she’s new to the traditionalist spirituality. Her friends may not really be urging her on in causing the friction in the house. Absent any proof otherwise, this is the assumption to go by.

My earlier suggestion to learn more about her spirituality remains, but don’t go with Wikipedia. Try to visit with the priest that offers the Latin Mass where she likes to go. Ask him for some things to read to understand your wife’s views better.

This is definitely an occasion for being firm, yet humble. Tell her that you don’t quite understand the big push, and that it hurts you for her to suggest you don’t take your role seriously. Tell her, however, that you want to understand and that you just need time (this is not a suggestion to just capitulate, but convey that you want to learn where she’s coming from. It’ll help diffuse the possible bunker mentality. Combativeness would only make that worse. Not all traditionalists have it, but it’s not unheard of). Find out where she’s learning this things, and learn the history behind them. For example, veiling and the brown scapular have beautiful histories behind them.

In a nutshell: listen, learn, try to understand. Above all else, be gentle, meek, and humble.
I’ll end with a piece of advice I always like to give: go before Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. Pour out your heart to Him. He will give you peace and strength. God bless.

 

[Rau]

We have five children, who are 11, 9, 6, 4 and 1 1/2.

Just to be practical for a moment, but how does one woman home-school 4 children (while dealing with a toddler) and seriously believe an adequate job can be done? This element of the situation alone causes me to question whether there is any possibility of some kind of mental “break” affecting your wife?

I wonder how the older children are reacting to the changes in their mother?