Advice Please - Wife Going Overboard

[maryjk]

OK, so the whole “take a reasonable approach, and try to work out a compromise” is not acceptable? Great help everyone. Let’s just add to the throwing about of accusations, creating suspicions, condemning situations of which you have no direct knowledge.

Keep up this approach and you’ll really aid in tearing this marriage apart.

So what exactly have we said that encourages this man to tear apart his marriage?

So far, we have recommended that he speak with her. That he talk to her about why she has had this dramatic change. Some have recommended that he talk to a priest. Some specify the priest from the EF.

We have tried to understand where she is going with all of these changes.

She isn’t just becoming more traditional. It isn’t that she wants to attend the EF.

She wants to pull her daughters out of sports. She canceled cable without (name removed by moderator)ut from her husband. She is upset that her husband has a beer or two. She doesn’t want him to watch a PG-13 movie. (I guess The Passion of the Christ is out of the question.)

These is not the acts of a traditional wife.

 

[tominrichmond]

Much of what you describe is objectively good: desire for the Latin Mass, modest dress, brown scapular, making the most important thing in life–one’s relationship with God-- in fact THE most important thing in life.

It seems what the issue is, at least in part, is her attitude, not the actions, which in the whole seem very good and praiseworthy.

Perhaps it’s a clever temptation of the Devil to attract your wife to these good things, and then corrupt much of it by tempting her to pride or to being disrespectful of your views.

Some things you mention, like having a beer or going on a date without necessarily talking about religion, have nothing to with living a traditional Catholic lifestyle, on the contrary, those things are very much consistent with a fully Catholic home life.

Other things, like wearing a brown scapular, are good and should not be disdained.

Perhaps you should examine the depth of your commitment to the Faith; being a Knight and going to Mass once a week is not particularly noteworthy. Adopting daily rosary, brown scapular, taking your kids out of the (often pretty liberal) diocesan school–these things are good, not bad, and perhaps your wife can be a source of grace in deepening your Faith.

We all should make our Faith THE central focus of our existence. It’s called sanctity.

 

[Wackotrad]

Probably other posters have said what I’m about to say, but here are my thoughts nonetheless:

1. I have no doubt that the OP isn’t exaggerating about these trads and their dress, attitudes, etc. We frequent a very well attended diocesan Latin Mass, and I see this all the time. It’s not as if everyone wears the prairie dresses, of course, but some do, and in general these people tend to have a very suspicious attitude toward any other facet of the institutional church, as well as toward anyone who doesn’t conform to their ways of dress, piety, etc. These communities can absolutely be cultish, even the ones that are part of a “regular” parish.
2. I wonder if your wife will settle down after a while. I realize that doesn’t help in the short term, but it seems as though she’s had a bit of a conversion experience, and for better or worse, the zeal and euphoria of these conversions generally wear off after a while.
3. I would decide what’s non-negotiable (for example, sports and modest but modern dress for your girls) and which issues you’re willing to overlook. I know you’re peeved about not being able to watch sports center and cooking shows, but can you watch those online or something?
4. Does your wife have a birthday or anything coming up? If you don’t like the clothes she’s wearing, buy her some new ones!

 

[aspirant]

Other things, like wearing a brown scapular, are good and should not be disdained.

The OP didn’t say that there’s anything wrong with the brown scapular. There is no “disdain.” Here’s what he really said:

Delta1977:

I am fine with her wearing one, but it is not something I wish to do myself. I don’t like wearing stuff and I don’t feel called to display any religious items on my body. I told her to go ahead and do it if she wants but please not to buy one for me. She said I was being a poor example of the faith and not leading my family well. She said she was praying for my conversion and hoped that I would set aside my “worldly ways and vices” to join her in her journey to heaven.

Delta1977 is certainly not obliged in any way to be enrolled in and wear a scapular if he chooses not to-- it is a private devotion. Neither is he a “poor example of the faith” if he chooses not to enroll in the scapular. Sts. Peter and Paul never wore brown scapulars, and they are excellent examples of faith. It is simply absurd for his wife to suggest that not wishing to wear a scapular means he is unconverted and worldly. Delta1977 is not trying to prevent or discourage anyone who wants to wear a scapular from wearing one, he merely wants to practice devotions which are suited to him.

 

[Rich_C]

Probably other posters have said what I’m about to say, but here are my thoughts nonetheless:

**2. I wonder if your wife will settle down after a while. I realize that doesn’t help in the short term, but it seems as though she’s had a bit of a conversion experience, **and for better or worse, the zeal and euphoria of these conversions generally wear off after a while.

1. I would decide what’s non-negotiable (for example, sports and modest but modern dress for your girls) and which issues you’re willing to overlook. I know you’re peeved about not being able to watch sports center and cooking shows, but can you watch those online or something?
2. Does your wife have a birthday or anything coming up? If you don’t like the clothes she’s wearing, buy her some new ones!

+1, especially the bold.

I’ll be praying for you today.

p.s. My wife and I are Latin Mass goers and she veils and almost always wears dresses, but we love to make martinis and watch MLB or netflix movies. Anyway my point is there’s a balance and I’m hopeful soon your wife will find it and you’ll have peace at home again. Try to meet her where she’s at instead of thinking about how it used to be so much. She’ll have to meet you halfway, too. God bless.

 

[The_Bucket]

It’s the outward appearance that is concerning, not the inward holiness. They often appear to be doing this for show, because the cultural practices they are doing are outward, not inward.

This indeed.

I would talk to your wife about having more private devotions… to focus on making your family’s holiness INWARD, and avoiding *excessive *OUTWARD SHOWS of faith. As the spiritual leader of the family, I encourage you to actively participate in some of these new ideas… maybe start a new quiet family prayer devotion (family rosary, family divine mercy chaplet, family novena, etc) - maybe this is something she needs more of, as a compromise, of sorts… privately bringing more INWARD holiness to the home.

I second this and the other notions that your wife a) needs to speak to a priest and b) might need some distance from these influences.

This “more Catholic than the Pope” junk needs to be tossed out posthaste. This kind of mindset is what brings about things like the SSPX and SSPV. If you’re a lay Catholic, you are called to live in the world. The key is that you should not be of the world. Part of being in the world means being part of the broader community, not separating yourself off into little cliques. If you were meant to separate yourselves from the world, you’d be in the religious life.

As a married couple and a lay Catholic family, you must be part of the broader society. That does not mean you accept society’s values, but it does mean you don’t cut yourself off from the world. That is what “plain Catholics” and others like them do. They say the heck with the rest of the world, I’m going to be radically different. And just not radically different in my heart, but radically different in every respect.

Well did Christ not say that when we give alms it should be in secret and when we fast no one should know? Likewise we must blend in with society even while keeping our hearts close to God. We are not going to be good conduits for the Holy Spirit and good preachers of the Gospel if we separate ourselves from the rest of the world.

 

[dixieagle]

Great minds, Juliane. Great minds. I was also thinking of this last night. It just came to me.

It was the way she dresses that made me think of it.

I know many people that attend the EF, when they can. Not one of them dresses like Little House on the Prairie.

This is a picture from a Plain Catholic website.

http://www.freewebs.com/plaincatholic/PCcouple.jpg

I have seen a number of posts from someone who belongs to a “Plain Catholic” group. (She even had affected the practice of using “thee” and “thou”, etc.)

With regard to the OP’s problem: as I have said before, it is no one else’s business should someone prefer the Latin Mass, or choose to cover her head while at Mass or Adoration, etc. However, when someone insists that a certain way of life is the “best” way to be Catholic - when, in fact, the cited practices were never traditionally Catholic - it is high time to draw a line.

This wife is ignoring her husband’s wishes and insisting upon a drastic change in a family which is already, evidently, a solid Catholic family. It is imperative that there be counseling, by a good priest or Catholic marriage counselor, as has been frequently pointed out.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I have seen a number of posts from someone who belongs to a “Plain Catholic” group. (She even had affected the practice of using “thee” and “thou”, etc.)

With regard to the OP’s problem: as I have said before, it is no one else’s business should someone prefer the Latin Mass, or choose to cover her head while at Mass or Adoration, etc. However, when someone insists that a certain way of life is the “best” way to be Catholic - when, in fact, the cited practices were never traditionally Catholic - it is high time to draw a line.

This wife is ignoring her husband’s wishes and insisting upon a drastic change in a family which is already, evidently, a solid Catholic family. It is imperative that there be counseling, by a good priest or Catholic marriage counselor, as has been frequently pointed out.

If we take the Catholic aspect out of it, and substitute some other radical transformation, it’s easier to see that intervention needs to be done. If the wife had decided to join a motorcycle gang, and wear leather miniskirts, wanted her husband to ride a Harley, grow his beard out, and let the children drink beer, it would be easy to see that this is wrong, and she needs some help. It’s not about being Catholic, it’s the fact that the wife is doing all this in response to the influence of others OUTSIDE her family, in direct opposition to what her husband and she had been doing, perfectly happily, before she met these friends. For some reason, these people sparked some sort of change inside her. People who join cults are frequently idealistic, insecure, and in need of rules and structure from the outside. I suspect that is what the OP’s wife is like, and this is just extreme and is showing what is going on with her.

To the person who said to buy his wife some new clothing for her birthday - She wouldn’t wear it and would likely throw it away.

 

[aspirant]

If you’re a lay Catholic, you are called to live in the world. The key is that you should not be of the world. Part of being in the world means being part of the broader community, not separating yourself off into little cliques… As a married couple and a lay Catholic family, you must be part of the broader society. That does not mean you accept society’s values, but it does mean you don’t cut yourself off from the world… We are not going to be good conduits for the Holy Spirit and good preachers of the Gospel if we separate ourselves from the rest of the world.

 

[Evania]

Just to be practical for a moment, but how does one woman home-school 4 children (while dealing with a toddler) and seriously believe an adequate job can be done? This element of the situation alone causes me to question whether there is any possibility of some kind of mental “break” affecting your wife?

I wonder how the older children are reacting to the changes in their mother?

Really?
Just this element alone makes you question if his wife is having some kind of mental break?
I was a teacher at a public school, and I can assure you that teaching my family is a lot less stressful than teaching an overcrowded classroom

 

[floresco]

If we take the Catholic aspect out of it, and substitute some other radical transformation, it’s easier to see that intervention needs to be done. If the wife had decided to join a motorcycle gang, and wear leather miniskirts, wanted her husband to ride a Harley, grow his beard out, and let the children drink beer, it would be easy to see that this is wrong, and she needs some help. It’s not about being Catholic, it’s the fact that the wife is doing all this in response to the influence of others OUTSIDE her family, in direct opposition to what her husband and she had been doing, perfectly happily, before she met these friends. For some reason, these people sparked some sort of change inside her. People who join cults are frequently idealistic, insecure, and in need of rules and structure from the outside. I suspect that is what the OP’s wife is like, and this is just extreme and is showing what is going on with her.

This is not a good analogy because the things that this wife wants are good in themselves. The only problem is how she is going about it and that she is forcing them on her husband. Treating it like joining a motorcycle gang is one of the worst things he could do. It will just drive a wedge between them.

I have been in a situation very much like this and it would have been very bad to have people telling me that I was irrational and cult-like. I needed recognition that the things I wanted were basically good but that I was going overboard with them.

 

[maryjk]

This is not a good analogy because the things that this wife wants are good in themselves. The only problem is how she is going about it and that she is forcing them on her husband. Treating it like joining a motorcycle gang is one of the worst things he could do. It will just drive a wedge between them.

I have been in a situation very much like this and it would have been very bad to have people telling me that I was irrational and cult-like. I needed recognition that the things I wanted were basically good but that I was going overboard with them.

What you say is “good,” is simply different.

Going to the EF mass isn’t better than attending the OF, just different. Wearing skirts all of the time, isn’t better than wearing modest pants. Not having cable isn’t better than having it.

All of these are options. Not better or worse, just different.

 

[floresco]

What you say is “good,” is simply different.

Going to the EF mass isn’t better than attending the OF, just different. Wearing skirts all of the time, isn’t better than wearing modest pants. Not having cable isn’t better than having it.

All of these are options. Not better or worse, just different.

They are good things that are allowed by the Church and this woman wants to do them. She is not telling you to do them, so just relax. The way you feel about these things is irrelevant to this couple.

I would like to talk to the wife. Unfortunately, only the husband is here. My advice to him is to try to understand what his wife sees in these practices. Why does she think they are good and desirable? That is going to help him to communicate with her. Dismissing her views as irrational and cult-like will be an obstacle to communication.
.

 

[dixieagle]

To the person who said to buy his wife some new clothing for her birthday - She wouldn’t wear it and would likely throw it away.

Absolutely.

 

[dixieagle]

This is not a good analogy because the things that this wife wants are good in themselves. The only problem is how she is going about it and that she is forcing them on her husband. Treating it like joining a motorcycle gang is one of the worst things he could do. It will just drive a wedge between them.

I have been in a situation very much like this and it would have been very bad to have people telling me that I was irrational and cult-like. I needed recognition that the things I wanted were basically good but that I was going overboard with them.

I disagree. Rejecting the Ordinary Form of the Mass, unilaterally preventing her husband from accessing his sports programming, and imposing extreme standards of dress on other family members are not actions that strike me as “basically good.”

 

[floresco]

I disagree. Rejecting the Ordinary Form of the Mass, unilaterally preventing her husband from accessing his sports programming, and imposing extreme standards of dress on other family members are not actions that strike me as “basically good.”

Wanting to attend the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, wanting to protect her children from the harmful influences of television and wanting to dress modestly are basically good things. She has gone about them the wrong way.

The husband does not need help to see these things negatively. He is already immersed in the negative aspects of what she is doing. He needs help to see what is good in them.

 

[The_Bucket]

I don’t think he has an issue with seeing the basic good behind wanting to be virtuous and modest. Where he’s concerned is that she’s going about it in entirely the wrong way and, in fact, a way that is probably sinful.

The EF is not better than the OF and closing oneself off from the world is not the charism of a layperson. That is what those in the religious life are for. We are to the be the front-line soldiers for Christ. The religious are the reserves, the workers in the arsenals passing up ammunition in the form of prayer to us on the front line. If we cut ourselves off from the world, we are failing to fulfill our duties as the church militant. We are retreating into a fortress of our minds.

The devil is everywhere and he comes from all angles. And honestly, he looks like he’s got one on the hooks here by sowing division in this family.

 

[agnes_therese]

The husband does not need help to see these things negatively. He is already immersed in the negative aspects of what she is doing. He needs help to see what is good in them.

It’s not “these things” that are the problem. It’s the completely wrong way his wife is trying to steam-roller the whole family away from what’s already good.
Don’t try to blame the husband for this situation.

 

[floresco]

I don’t think he has an issue with seeing the basic good behind wanting to be virtuous and modest. Where he’s concerned is that she’s going about it in entirely the wrong way and, in fact, a way that is probably sinful.

I agree that she is going about it the wrong way and that it may be sinful. It will be easy for him to forget the basic good behind it in these circumstances which is why I am reminding him.

The EF is not better than the OF and closing oneself off from the world is not the charism of a layperson. That is what those in the religious life are for. We are to the be the front-line soldiers for Christ. The religious are the reserves, the workers in the arsenals passing up ammunition in the form of prayer to us on the front line. If we cut ourselves off from the world, we are failing to fulfill our duties as the church militant. We are retreating into a fortress of our minds.

While we can’t say in general terms that the EF is better than the OF, a given Catholic can decide that the EF is better for him or her. There is no question that it is better for me to attend the EF. This very well may be the case for the wife. If your “closing oneself off from the world” comment refers to getting rid of television, that too depends on the individual. I see no reason to think that any of the things she wants are wrong in themselves.

The devil is everywhere and he comes from all angles. And honestly, he looks like he’s got one on the hooks here by sowing division in this family.

I agree.

 

[floresco]

It’s not “these things” that are the problem. It’s the completely wrong way his wife is trying to steam-roller the whole family away from what’s already good.
Don’t try to blame the husband for this situation.

I am not blaming the husband. I think that the wife is at fault. I think that he is a great husband. I am talking about things that he can do because he is the one who is here asking for advice, not because I blame him.

The problem with asking for marriage advice on a forum is that one risks having many people writing about what a horrible person one’s spouse is. Or how it is all the spouse’s fault. This is not what a person in a troubled marriage needs to hear. These comments do not help a person to make his or her marriage any better.