Advice Please - Wife Going Overboard

[russet1]

I don’t think the hypotheticals compare. Sumbission in the Catholic church is supposed to be mutual. I can’t say the same for Islam or any protestant church so I don’t know what advising the husband would mean. I reversed the roles in an earlier post and I think that is a better comparison.

Converting to a different mainsteram religion is different than imposing practices of a fringe group on the family when they are already devout.

I don’t think we can make that statement about the protestant churches. Nor do I think the common understanding of “mutual submission” has always been the case in the Catholic Church.
I agree that mutual submission is what is alluded to in Ephesians 5 and in the Chatechism but that does not necessarily mean everyone must agree what “mutual submission means” I think the hypotheticals do compare and I think people’s answers would be quite different. In fact I know of several converts who had severe problems with this aspect. Scott and Kimberly Hahn are quite vocal about this aspect of a marriage with different ideas on how faith should manifest itself.

 

[russet1]

This comment has been haunting me.

I am concerned that your wife sees her daughters as only ever being mothers or nuns. Does she not see college for them? An option of a career?

A good friend of mine has six children, but is also an RN. She also home schooled her children. Now that the children are older she works on the maternity ward at our local hospital.

There is certainly nothing wrong with a young lady having an education. Or having a job/career. These are not against Catholic teaching, in any way.

I have to agree. It just seems like in todays world there are just too many vocations to the religious life and too few women in the workplace.

 

[maryjk]

I have to agree. It just seems like in todays world there are just too many vocations to the religious life and too few women in the workplace.

A vocation is what you are called to do, not what Mom told you that you have to do.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I don’t think we can make that statement about the protestant churches. Nor do I think the common understanding of “mutual submission” has always been the case in the Catholic Church.
I agree that mutual submission is what is alluded to in Ephesians 5 and in the Chatechism but that does not necessarily mean everyone must agree what “mutual submission means” I think the hyp[otheticals do compare and I think people’s answers would be quite different. In fact I know of several converts who had severe problems with this aspect. Scott and Kimberly Hahn are quite vocal about this aspect of a marriage with different ideas on how faith should manifest itself.

What do the Hahns say? I’m curious because I used to take to heart things Kimberly said about marriage and courtship and realized what she was suggesting was idealistic. Maybe it works in their world.
[/quote]

 

[russet1]

What do the Hahns say? I’m curious because I used to take to heart things Kimberly said about marriage and courtship and realized what she was suggesting was idealistic. Maybe it works in their world.

I think that we all have baggage that shapes how we view this subject. Which is why no one is really giving unbiased untainted advice on this thread.

realized what she was suggesting was idealistic. Maybe it works in their world

.
Statements like this show that there is some bigger issue affecting how you see other situations. No worries, we all have them, the key is to recognize them!

 

[russet1]

A vocation is what you are called to do, not what Mom told you that you have to do.

Very true. Parents should not take that road. But it is possible that the pendellum has swung too far in the opposite direction. I would be as joyful if one of my children was a nun as if they gave birth to my first grandchild or as if they were the best grocery store checker they could be or if she was elected President. But we need to make sure our children know that there are options and callings!
I see nothing wrong with holding up saints and religious as people of virtue to strive to be like!

 

[Delta1977]

They are ONE FLESH as husband and wife. She is not acknowledging her husband’s viewpoint, needs, desires, etc. at all, but steamrolling her own beliefs in the name of being more holy. She no longer has the option to do whatever she wants in life. She’s chosen a vocation as wife and mother. She just doesn’t get to steamroll the entire family this way. There was NOTHING WRONG with their previous lifestyle as devout and normal Catholics.

OP, how are the children handling this change in their mom? You’ve never responded to my question.

Hi Julianne,
Sorry I did not answer sooner. So many wonderful replies to read!

The kids are okay. My oldest rolls her eyes at the proposed wardrobe changes but so far I have put my foot down. My wife has a lot of opinions and ideas, but she is not a mean person. She’s not going to hold the kids down and dress them in frocks. She has some guilt about her “failings” up until the last year or so, and says things like, “If i had started this sooner, they wouldn’t reject it.” I try to reassure her that she’s always been a good mom and that our kids have always been very fortunate, but she is always pointing to how pious and obedient Susie’s kids are. And I’ve told her that a) she has no idea what goes on behind closed doors - she only sees what Susie wants her to see and b) we are not raising little Catholic parrots who can’t think for themselves. They are overall WONDERFUL kids and I appreciate their spunk and quirks. I don’t want them to act like nuns and monks - they’re children.

The three little ones barely notice a change, except for that all the kids hate going to the Latin Mass. They find it hard to sit still and boring. I try to encourage them to engage but it’s hard for them and they grumble and whine when we go. And obviously the oldest three so not want to leave school (which I am not going to let happen.)

Last night I gave my wife this letter:

Dear J,
Over the past 18 months I have noticed so many changes in you and what you want for our family. Some make me happy, some are neutral, and some make me very sad and disappointed. As your husband and the children’s father, I want to be a good leader for this family, but I need you to take a step back and allow that. We have always been happy in our family life (at least I have), and to be honest I do not see the need for radical changes from what we were doing two or three years ago. You know the kids are thriving in school and happy. You have always been a great mom and wife and our faith has always been a huge part of our lives even before your changes started.

Now, I have to decide what to do. I am not happy. I long for the “Old J” and our old life. I want to discuss your new ideas with you, but I need you to hear me when I say I am not trying to thwart your spiritual life. I just want balance for our family. Therefore…

1. We can attend the Latin Mass once a month as a family. Otherwise we need to go to St. Jude’s. That’s our parish and that’s where the kids go to school. They enjoy going which is very important - they see their school friends, know the priests, and it feels like home. Once a month we can go to the Latin Mass together, but I need you not to make disparaging comments about our home parish or regular Mass to the kids or to me. Both are equal in validity. I am happy to attend the 11:30 Mass as a family so that you can also make the 9:30 Latin Mass by yourself if you’d like to attend both. The kids, though, will not be made to attend both.
2. There will be no homeschooling. I don’t doubt your intelligence or ability, but I am adamant that they stay in school where they are thriving.
3. You are free to wear whatever religious items you wish. Please do not force them on me or the kids. It’s a personal preference, not a matter of salvation.
4. Your Mass hair covering is fine, but please leave it for Mass or prayer only.
5. Please consider taking out some of your old clothing and re-evaluating whether or not it can still be worn. You are a beautiful woman with a beautiful figure, and I think you looked amazing in your old clothes.
6. If you want, we can sign up for Saturday adoration as a family twice a month.
7. I love you and want you to be holy AND happy. You don’t need to compare yourself to other moms. I think you’re amazing and have done a great job. Please stop comparing our family to others. You need to enjoy the fruits of the good work you’ve done!

Please let me know when you are ready to discuss this. Love you.

I hope I didn’t go too far.

 

[floresco]

Last night I gave my wife this letter:

Dear J,
Over the past 18 months I have noticed so many changes in you and what you want for our family. Some make me happy, some are neutral, and some make me very sad and disappointed. As your husband and the children’s father, I want to be a good leader for this family, but I need you to take a step back and allow that. We have always been happy in our family life (at least I have), and to be honest I do not see the need for radical changes from what we were doing two or three years ago. You know the kids are thriving in school and happy. You have always been a great mom and wife and our faith has always been a huge part of our lives even before your changes started.

Now, I have to decide what to do. I am not happy. I long for the “Old J” and our old life. I want to discuss your new ideas with you, but I need you to hear me when I say I am not trying to thwart your spiritual life. I just want balance for our family. Therefore…

1. We can attend the Latin Mass once a month as a family. Otherwise we need to go to St. Jude’s. That’s our parish and that’s where the kids go to school. They enjoy going which is very important - they see their school friends, know the priests, and it feels like home. Once a month we can go to the Latin Mass together, but I need you not to make disparaging comments about our home parish or regular Mass to the kids or to me. Both are equal in validity. I am happy to attend the 11:30 Mass as a family so that you can also make the 9:30 Latin Mass by yourself if you’d like to attend both. The kids, though, will not be made to attend both.
2. There will be no homeschooling. I don’t doubt your intelligence or ability, but I am adamant that they stay in school where they are thriving.
3. You are free to wear whatever religious items you wish. Please do not force them on me or the kids. It’s a personal preference, not a matter of salvation.
4. Your Mass hair covering is fine, but please leave it for Mass or prayer only.
5. Please consider taking out some of your old clothing and re-evaluating whether or not it can still be worn. You are a beautiful woman with a beautiful figure, and I think you looked amazing in your old clothes.
6. If you want, we can sign up for Saturday adoration as a family twice a month.
7. I love you and want you to be holy AND happy. You don’t need to compare yourself to other moms. I think you’re amazing and have done a great job. Please stop comparing our family to others. You need to enjoy the fruits of the good work you’ve done!

Please let me know when you are ready to discuss this. Love you.

I hope I didn’t go too far.

This is beautiful. It brought tears to my eyes. I hope your wife realizes how blessed she is to be married to you.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

I think that we all have baggage that shapes how we view this subject. Which is why no one is really giving unbiased untainted advice on this thread.
.
Statements like this show that there is some bigger issue affecting how you see other situations. No worries, we all have them, the key is to recognize them!

But what did they actually say?

And baggage? Issues? You mean like reality? What she was suggesting in no way would work for most people since maybe Adam and Eve’s grandchildren. Okay, I’m being facetious. But what she was suggesting was in no way a one-size-fits-all Catholic lifestyle. Kind of like what the friend of the OP’s wife is modeling.

 

[russet1]

Hi Julianne,
Sorry I did not answer sooner. So many wonderful replies to read!

The kids are okay. My oldest rolls her eyes at the proposed wardrobe changes but so far I have put my foot down. My wife has a lot of opinions and ideas, but she is not a mean person. She’s not going to hold the kids down and dress them in frocks. She has some guilt about her “failings” up until the last year or so, and says things like, “If i had started this sooner, they wouldn’t reject it.” I try to reassure her that she’s always been a good mom and that our kids have always been very fortunate, but she is always pointing to how pious and obedient Susie’s kids are. And I’ve told her that a) she has no idea what goes on behind closed doors - she only sees what Susie wants her to see and b) we are not raising little Catholic parrots who can’t think for themselves. They are overall WONDERFUL kids and I appreciate their spunk and quirks. I don’t want them to act like nuns and monks - they’re children.

The three little ones barely notice a change, except for that all the kids hate going to the Latin Mass. They find it hard to sit still and boring. I try to encourage them to engage but it’s hard for them and they grumble and whine when we go. And obviously the oldest three so not want to leave school (which I am not going to let happen.)

Last night I gave my wife this letter:

Dear J,
Over the past 18 months I have noticed so many changes in you and what you want for our family. Some make me happy, some are neutral, and some make me very sad and disappointed. As your husband and the children’s father, I want to be a good leader for this family, but I need you to take a step back and allow that. We have always been happy in our family life (at least I have), and to be honest I do not see the need for radical changes from what we were doing two or three years ago. You know the kids are thriving in school and happy. You have always been a great mom and wife and our faith has always been a huge part of our lives even before your changes started.

Now, I have to decide what to do. I am not happy. I long for the “Old J” and our old life. I want to discuss your new ideas with you, but I need you to hear me when I say I am not trying to thwart your spiritual life. I just want balance for our family. Therefore…

1. We can attend the Latin Mass once a month as a family. Otherwise we need to go to St. Jude’s. That’s our parish and that’s where the kids go to school. They enjoy going which is very important - they see their school friends, know the priests, and it feels like home. Once a month we can go to the Latin Mass together, but I need you not to make disparaging comments about our home parish or regular Mass to the kids or to me. Both are equal in validity. I am happy to attend the 11:30 Mass as a family so that you can also make the 9:30 Latin Mass by yourself if you’d like to attend both. The kids, though, will not be made to attend both.
2. There will be no homeschooling. I don’t doubt your intelligence or ability, but I am adamant that they stay in school where they are thriving.
3. You are free to wear whatever religious items you wish. Please do not force them on me or the kids. It’s a personal preference, not a matter of salvation.
4. Your Mass hair covering is fine, but please leave it for Mass or prayer only.
5. Please consider taking out some of your old clothing and re-evaluating whether or not it can still be worn. You are a beautiful woman with a beautiful figure, and I think you looked amazing in your old clothes.
6. If you want, we can sign up for Saturday adoration as a family twice a month.
7. I love you and want you to be holy AND happy. You don’t need to compare yourself to other moms. I think you’re amazing and have done a great job. Please stop comparing our family to others. You need to enjoy the fruits of the good work you’ve done!

Please let me know when you are ready to discuss this. Love you.

I hope I didn’t go too far.

WOW I absolutly LOVE it!
That was rational, logical, loving, and very honest.

Look at that. You handled it better than all of us armchair quarterbacks could have!

I think she will respond well to that kind of husband and honesty. You are a great guy. I can tell by your letter. And I know that you must be frustrated.

 

[russet1]

But what did they actually say?

And baggage? Issues? You mean like reality? What she was suggesting in no way would work for most people since maybe Adam and Eve’s grandchildren. Okay, I’m being facetious. But what she was suggesting was in no way a one-size-fits-all Catholic lifestyle. Kind of like what the friend of the OP’s wife is modeling.

ok

 

[underacloud]

That seems very well written and reasonable, and loving too. I hope it is well received!

 

[Bruised_Reed]

Hi Julianne,
Sorry I did not answer sooner. So many wonderful replies to read!

The kids are okay. My oldest rolls her eyes at the proposed wardrobe changes but so far I have put my foot down. My wife has a lot of opinions and ideas, but she is not a mean person. She’s not going to hold the kids down and dress them in frocks. She has some guilt about her “failings” up until the last year or so, and says things like, “If i had started this sooner, they wouldn’t reject it.” I try to reassure her that she’s always been a good mom and that our kids have always been very fortunate, but she is always pointing to how pious and obedient Susie’s kids are. And I’ve told her that a) she has no idea what goes on behind closed doors - she only sees what Susie wants her to see and b) we are not raising little Catholic parrots who can’t think for themselves. They are overall WONDERFUL kids and I appreciate their spunk and quirks. I don’t want them to act like nuns and monks - they’re children.

The three little ones barely notice a change, except for that all the kids hate going to the Latin Mass. They find it hard to sit still and boring. I try to encourage them to engage but it’s hard for them and they grumble and whine when we go. And obviously the oldest three so not want to leave school (which I am not going to let happen.)

Last night I gave my wife this letter:

Dear J,
Over the past 18 months I have noticed so many changes in you and what you want for our family. Some make me happy, some are neutral, and some make me very sad and disappointed. As your husband and the children’s father, I want to be a good leader for this family, but I need you to take a step back and allow that. We have always been happy in our family life (at least I have), and to be honest I do not see the need for radical changes from what we were doing two or three years ago. You know the kids are thriving in school and happy. You have always been a great mom and wife and our faith has always been a huge part of our lives even before your changes started.

Now, I have to decide what to do. I am not happy. I long for the “Old J” and our old life. I want to discuss your new ideas with you, but I need you to hear me when I say I am not trying to thwart your spiritual life. I just want balance for our family. Therefore…

1. We can attend the Latin Mass once a month as a family. Otherwise we need to go to St. Jude’s. That’s our parish and that’s where the kids go to school. They enjoy going which is very important - they see their school friends, know the priests, and it feels like home. Once a month we can go to the Latin Mass together, but I need you not to make disparaging comments about our home parish or regular Mass to the kids or to me. Both are equal in validity. I am happy to attend the 11:30 Mass as a family so that you can also make the 9:30 Latin Mass by yourself if you’d like to attend both. The kids, though, will not be made to attend both.
2. There will be no homeschooling. I don’t doubt your intelligence or ability, but I am adamant that they stay in school where they are thriving.
3. You are free to wear whatever religious items you wish. Please do not force them on me or the kids. It’s a personal preference, not a matter of salvation.
4. Your Mass hair covering is fine, but please leave it for Mass or prayer only.
5. Please consider taking out some of your old clothing and re-evaluating whether or not it can still be worn. You are a beautiful woman with a beautiful figure, and I think you looked amazing in your old clothes.
6. If you want, we can sign up for Saturday adoration as a family twice a month.
7. I love you and want you to be holy AND happy. You don’t need to compare yourself to other moms. I think you’re amazing and have done a great job. Please stop comparing our family to others. You need to enjoy the fruits of the good work you’ve done!

Please let me know when you are ready to discuss this. Love you.

I hope I didn’t go too far.

Beautiful letter and I appreciate your thoughtful approach. Prayers for you and your family.

 

[dailey]

Wow, I wish you were my husband, lol!

On a serious note, you did a great job expressing yourself.

 

[bluerose]

Just out of curiosity, have you met any of your wife’s new friends and their husbands?

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I think that’s a great letter. I hope she is open to what you have stated. I think you were both loving and firm.

Her statement of “If I had started this sooner, they wouldn’t reject it,” could have come from my mouth a few years ago. She’s seeing someone else’s way of life and thinking that her children and her family could BE them.

Be patient, I think she’ll come out of this OK.

 

[maryjk]

I try to reassure her that she’s always been a good mom and that our kids have always been very fortunate, but she is always pointing to how pious and obedient Susie’s kids are. And I’ve told her that a) she has no idea what goes on behind closed doors - she only sees what Susie wants her to see and b) we are not raising little Catholic parrots who can’t think for themselves. They are overall WONDERFUL kids and I appreciate their spunk and quirks. I don’t want them to act like nuns and monks - they’re children.

Great letter.

Something we all need to remember is that we hear about everyone’s highlight reel, and we live with our own blooper reel.

 

[dixieagle]

Absolutely terrific letter, OP!!!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Great letter.

Something we all need to remember is that we hear about everyone’s highlight reel, and we live with our own blooper reel.

Yep, in 12-step groups we say, “Don’t compare your INSIDES with someone else’s OUTSIDES.”

 

[lynnvinc]

I’m sort of wondering if there might have been some alcoholism on your wife’s side of the family. If so that may have some impact. I speak from my own experience – I tend to get extreme on a lot of things & both my parents were alcoholics.

When I got a calling to Carmel (OCDS) 25 years ago, my Catholic husband (I’m a convert) got scared bec he knew I had gotten a calling to a more religious life over the previous months, and he was afraid he would lose me. However, one of the requirements to entering OCDS was permission of one’s spouse, which delayed my entering for several more months. I’m a pre-women’s movement woman and we were married in 1969, so I’ve always considered hubby head of the family and the final decision-maker – tho I do put up pretty big arguing-begging-screaming tactics now and then to get my way. The hard thing in convincing hubby to give permission to enter Carmel was my trying to act like a Carmelite – which precluded ranting, raving and screaming. Prayer really helps a lot, tho bec God gave people free will, it’s also difficult. St. Monica wept and prayed intensely for many years over her son St. Augustine.

The devil often uses such tactics when he cannot corrupt souls by the usual corruption – just make them go way beyond the good direction they are taking…into something unhealthy spiritually.

I know with my various extremes that have been unhealthy spiritually, they tend to wear off with time.

If nothing else works, just turn to prayer and time…which will heal all things.

St. Teresa of Jesus taught us with:
Let nothing disturb you,
Let nothing frighten you,
All things are passing away:
God never changes.
Patience obtains all things
Whoever has God lacks nothing;
God alone suffices.
BTW, I’m basically against Latin Masses and even Latin used for more than 5% of the Mass for several reasons, unlike hubby who fondly remembers the Latin Mass from his childhood and early adulthood:

1. 
   *]I studied Latin in HS, and we read and translated Ceasar’s Bello Gallico and other military imperialist exploits of Ceasar; so to me Latin is a language of imperialism, domination, and bloodshed, including nailing people to crosses.
   *]Secondly and more importantly Catholics really don’t understand what Prostestants think of Catholicism. I was taught to hate Catholics as a kid. The biggy is Catholicism being “ritualistic,” more concerned about not understanding the Gospels and Christianity (e.g., by using Latin) than understanding it, and basically missing the point of Christianity. This, of course, is untrue, but why fuel their fire???
   *]Finally, I like to understand what people are saying (perhaps bec I was reared a Protestant and meaning is more or as important as ritual), and I really don’t remember my HS Latin from 52 years ago, and I’m really too busy to relearn it.
   
   RE head-scarves, I’m not against that, except as you say it sticks out, and Catholics being conformists (another thing my mom criticized about Catholics), this would be embarrasing to many. However, my husband is from India and in the villages Catholic women have always worn and are still wearing head-scarves (usually the end of their sari or the dupatta scarves of churidar outfits) at Mass – so it would be weird not to cover the head; while in the big cities, like Chennai, they are mostly giving that up (sort of like 45 years ago in the U.S.).
   
   So, anyway I cover my head during Mass when in rural India. I brought a black chiffon dupatta back with me from India last time we visited, and wear it at Mass during our yearly Carmelite retreats, where about one-sixth of the female members wear veils or head-scarves, so it isn’t so weird.
   
   The important thing is (I read this somewhere), one doesn’t need to be on their knees (I have knee problems, so that’s out for me now) or cover their head to pray, but their mind should be on its knees