Advice Please - Wife Going Overboard

[Delta1977]

This is interesting. I go to a traditional Latin Mass parish, and NONE of the families are anything like what you described. The women wear veils and long dresses, but their clothing is very attractive AND modest… at the same time. There is no exchange of immodest beauty to modest frumpiness.

It seems that the parish you are associated with is rather extreme, as I’m sure you know. What kind of parish is it? (order or association)

I must sympathize with your wife in that I find the OF rather uncomfortable, after having grown such a love for the old mass, but by NO means does that mean I will not go to an OF mass if the occasion commands or for any small reason. It’s the mass, and there’s nothing at all to stop me from attending it.

One other thing I wished to mention: The veil women wear in EF parishes are, specifically, “prayer veils” (that isn’t the name, but the purpose) and they are intended to be worn when praying. When in the church, they are worn because a person in the Church is generally praying. However, unless your wife intends to be praying all the time, wherever she goes, wearing the veil all the time is not fitting.

Thank you everyone for your kind replies. Please keep them coming. I am so glad to see that I am not crazy and that in fact even devout Catholics have to have some balance in their lives! This situation has been escalating and I am literally at my wit’s end.

To answer some of your questions, dshix…

The parish we are associated with is a normal parish. It’s just a regular diocesan one. There is no Latin Mass at our parish.

The Latin Mass is said at another diocesan parish in the next town over. They say one Latin mass per Sunday and it is attended mostly by these types of huge homeschool families, all EXTREMELY conservative and, yes, dowdy. It’s a weird thing. The attendees are very cliquish and don’t consider themselves a part of that parish at all. It is “their” Mass. They have their own priest who comes in just for that liturgy and you would never see those families at a regular mass, or at any parish functions. If that priest were to cancel that Mass due to illness or something, they’d drive 40 minutes to the next Latin Mass before they’d go to a regular mass. They are very separate from the rest of that parish, it is almost as though they use that church for their purposes but don’t really want anything else to do with it (the school, the clubs, the service groups, etc.)

I have noticed a sort of “revolution” in these young families where they take things to the extreme and their entire lives get wrapped up in Catholicism to the point where they no longer relate normally in the world, especially the women and kids. I think this is a reaction to the loosey-goosey 70s, 80s and 90s and you know how the pendulum swings one way and then the other - I kind of get the impression from “Susie” and her kind that the pendulum has simply swung all the way over to the over the top side. It’s really hard to reason with these women because to them, more Catholicism is always better, to no end, and anyone who suggests they chill out and let their kids be normal is trying to lead them into sin.

My grandmother, who was a first-generation American German Catholic, wasn’t even this devout - and she went to Mass every day. She at least let her kids go to school and didn’t constantly feed them ideas about joining convents.

 

[floresco]

Where did my funny, fun bride go? Where did my sexy, brilliant wife go? I love her so much, I could just cry every day. I want her back.

I am a lot like your wife. I prefer the Latin Mass, only receive Communion from priests, don’t approve of TV, only wear skirts, etc. But as a traditionalist Catholic, I believe that my husband is the head of the family. I do not make unilateral decisions about our children or tell him what he is allowed to do. If your wife is doing things as you perceive them, she is not following traditional Catholic teaching. I suggest that you read Casti Connubi vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_31121930_casti-connubii_en.html
Note section 26 : Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: “Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church.”

Anyhow, it is not unusual for people to go overboard at first and then settle down. When I was first getting into this sort of thing it was hard on my husband and we had a rough year or so. Eventually I went to priest for advice who told me to smarten up (but more tactfully). Let her go to the Mass that she wants to go to because that is between her and God. But she can not tell you where to go to Mass.

I suggest going together to speak to a priest about these things. A priest is likely to recognize the zealousness of a person who has newly discovered tradition and know what to say to encourage her to be more balanced. I actually agree with her on just about all the issues you’ve mentioned, but she is not going about things the right way.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

If she wants to be genuinely submissive to you, her husband, she skipped the first step. If you homeschool, she’s the teacher and you are the principal and superintendant. Everything I’ve read about homeschooling says that homeschooling requires that both parents be 100% on board and if one parent does not want to do it, then homeschooling is off the table.
Did she cancel cable without discussing it with you? That, among most of the things you desribed, seems contradictive to submission. If I reverse your roles, it wouldn’t be right for you to cancel cable, require prairie dresses (why are those considered “modest” anyway?) or scapulars or make a one-sided decision to attend the TLM. Doing all of this so suddenly seems really superficial to me, not as a result of a deeper conversion. I mean, “I want to be a submissive wife” and “you aren’t a good spiritual leader” don’t jibe.

And thanks for sticking up for your girls and the opportunties for sports and their clothing options.

 

[floresco]

They have their own priest who comes in just for that liturgy.

See if you can arrange for the two of you to speak with this priest. Odds are he will give good advice.

 

[dshix]

Thank you everyone for your kind replies. Please keep them coming. I am so glad to see that I am not crazy and that in fact even devout Catholics have to have some balance in their lives! This situation has been escalating and I am literally at my wit’s end.

To answer some of your questions, dshix…

The parish we are associated with is a normal parish. It’s just a regular diocesan one. There is no Latin Mass at our parish.

The Latin Mass is said at another diocesan parish in the next town over. They say one Latin mass per Sunday and it is attended mostly by these types of huge homeschool families, all EXTREMELY conservative and, yes, dowdy. It’s a weird thing. The attendees are very cliquish and don’t consider themselves a part of that parish at all. It is “their” Mass. They have their own priest who comes in just for that liturgy and you would never see those families at a regular mass, or at any parish functions. If that priest were to cancel that Mass due to illness or something, they’d drive 40 minutes to the next Latin Mass before they’d go to a regular mass. They are very separate from the rest of that parish, it is almost as though they use that church for their purposes but don’t really want anything else to do with it (the school, the clubs, the service groups, etc.)

I have noticed a sort of “revolution” in these young families where they take things to the extreme and their entire lives get wrapped up in Catholicism to the point where they no longer relate normally in the world, especially the women and kids. I think this is a reaction to the loosey-goosey 70s, 80s and 90s and you know how the pendulum swings one way and then the other - I kind of get the impression from “Susie” and her kind that the pendulum has simply swung all the way over to the over the top side. It’s really hard to reason with these women because to them, more Catholicism is always better, to no end, and anyone who suggests they chill out and let their kids be normal is trying to lead them into sin.

My grandmother, who was a first-generation American German Catholic, wasn’t even this devout - and she went to Mass every day. She at least let her kids go to school and didn’t constantly feed them ideas about joining convents.

Huh. Well, I can’t imagine what the reason for the extremes of those families could be; I hope there isn’t a deeper problem here. Speak to the priest which says the masses for them (if possible) and find out what order he’s in. I have a slight suspicion he might possibly be SSPX, but I can’t say without further information.

I’ll be praying for your and your family.

 

[floresco]

Speak to the priest which says the masses for them (if possible) and find out what order he’s in. I have a slight suspicion he might possibly be SSPX, but I can’t say without further information.

It is very unlikely he is SSPX. He is saying Mass at a diocesan church. This is almost certainly an approved Extraordinary Form Mass. So that is one thing not to worry about.

 

[Delta1977]

It is very unlikely he is SSPX. He is saying Mass at a diocesan church. This is almost certainly an approved Extraordinary Form Mass. So that is one thing not to worry about.

Right. It is approved, it’s on their website and on their weekly bulletins. We don’t live in a particularly traditional area, so I think that’s why this mass is so separate from the rest of the parish. It’s literally maybe 15 families and 15 couples/singles and the occasional drop-in. Still, it’s approved and not sedevavantist.

 

[Francoist]

I wonder what the other side of the story is.

It sounds to me like your wife is growing in the Catholic Faith. This should be a matter for rejoicing. Of course, that means you have to grow in the Catholic Faith as well! What a pain in the backside, huh?

It is good that your wife covers her head at Mass… she should. It is good that she only receives the Most Holy Sacrament of Our Lord Jesus Christ from consecrated hands. That is right and proper. It is good that she wants to attend the Tridentine Mass, the Mass of All Ages that is our blessed and cherished patrimony in the Latin Rite.

I for one cannot assume that she is trying to be “holier than thou” or better than anybody. I can only assume that she is trying to be “holier than yesterday” and “better than before”.

As a husband, you’re supposed to be helping her make her salvation. Please be supportive!

 

[dshix]

It is very unlikely he is SSPX. He is saying Mass at a diocesan church. This is almost certainly an approved Extraordinary Form Mass. So that is one thing not to worry about.

Right. It is approved, it’s on their website and on their weekly bulletins. We don’t live in a particularly traditional area, so I think that’s why this mass is so separate from the rest of the parish. It’s literally maybe 15 families and 15 couples/singles and the occasional drop-in. Still, it’s approved and not sedevavantist.

Ok, then.

 

[floresco]

As a husband, you’re supposed to be helping her make her salvation. Please be supportive!

When I was going through this sort of thing, my husband was very supportive. Even though he prefers the OF, he went to the EF with me just to show support and that he understood how important it is to me.

His understanding and consideration made me more open to trying to trying to see things from his side. I could tell that he really wanted what was best for me and was not acting out of selfishness.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I wonder what the other side of the story is.

It sounds to me like your wife is growing in the Catholic Faith. This should be a matter for rejoicing. Of course, that means you have to grow in the Catholic Faith as well! What a pain in the backside, huh?

There is nothing wrong with his faith life, the way he described it. Implying so is very uncharitable.

It is good that your wife covers her head at Mass… she should. It is good that she only receives the Most Holy Sacrament of Our Lord Jesus Christ from consecrated hands. That is right and proper. It is good that she wants to attend the Tridentine Mass, the Mass of All Ages that is our blessed and cherished patrimony in the Latin Rite.

I for one cannot assume that she is trying to be “holier than thou” or better than anybody. I can only assume that she is trying to be “holier than yesterday” and “better than before”.

As a husband, you’re supposed to be helping her make her salvation. Please be supportive!

Be supportive of the fact that she is making unilateral decisions re: their children among other things? That she gives him a hard time about having a beer? That she gives him a hard time about watching PG-13 movies? That she won’t let her children participate in the sports that they love? That she won’t discuss anything other than religion?

Nowhere does the Church say children must be homeschooled, and Catholic school is a perfectly reasonable option for Catholic parents to consider. Nowhere does the Church say that only the Latin Mass is valid. Or that women must wear veils. Or that you must receive only from Priest and Deacons. These are judgement calls, as far as I’m aware.

Conversely, it is sad and ridiculous that people are recommending that he take unilateral control over the family. Don’t you people realize that if the roles were reverse and he was the wife instead of the husband, then you would be encouraging the same exact behaviors that we here advise against? It is a sickness, for one parent to take full control of the family and demand obedience in all things. You see now what that sickness results in: people like this wife. The problem is not that her husband doesn’t have dictatorial control over her family, the problem is that he has none!!!

 

[floresco]

Conversely, it is sad and ridiculous that people are recommending that he take unilateral control over the family. Don’t you people realize that if the roles were reverse and he was the wife instead of the husband, then you would be encouraging the same exact behaviors that we here advise against? It is a sickness, for one parent to take full control of the family and demand obedience in all things. You see now what that sickness results in: people like this wife. The problem is not that her husband doesn’t have dictatorial control over her family, the problem is that he has none!!!

I strongly suggest that everyone resist the temptation to get into a discussion of the principle of the husband as head of the family. There have been many discussions of this already and it has little to do with the problem the OP is dealing with. It was only mentioned because it is presumably something his wife believes.

Please let’s focus on helping the OP.

 

[robert7685]

Delta, the key here is going to be communication. Marriage is about give and take. Talk to her first, and find out what exactly is going on in her head. Be charitable and civil. Some things are reasonable to allow (head covering in Church) while others need to be hammered out (pulling girls out of sports, which is extreme unless its coed wrestling or something like that). Also, find out a bit about traditional Catholic spirituality, to understand her better. The best way is to call an FSSP priest (or ICRSS or someone similar). Above all else, pray. I can’t stress that enough. Pray before you do anything.

 

[10thCrusader]

It is very unlikely he is SSPX. He is saying Mass at a diocesan church. This is almost certainly an approved Extraordinary Form Mass. So that is one thing not to worry about.

One thing to consider is: while the priest may not be SSPX, there may be a lot of SSPX or Sedevacantist members attending the EF Mass, because there is not a SSPX Mass available. That may account for some of the extremist behavior of the women at the EF Mass.

I know at the EF Mass here (an approved FSSP Mass), we do get a few SSPX members. They dress in a kind of prairie dress style and wear only the veil (as opposed to a hat or cap). They keep to themselves and are a little cultish. However, that doesn’t seem to be the case with most of the people at the EF Mass here. They dress modestly, but stylish, and seem otherwise normal. However most of them homeschool.

Maybe you just have a lot of SSPX “refugees” at the EF Mass there. I agree with talking to the priest at the EF Mass. He might be able to provide some good counsel.

 

[maryjk]

I wonder what the other side of the story is.

It sounds to me like your wife is growing in the Catholic Faith. This should be a matter for rejoicing. Of course, that means you have to grow in the Catholic Faith as well! What a pain in the backside, huh?

So she has totally changed how she lives and wants to totally change how her family lives. And you automatically claim she is growing in her faith?

How does dressing like you live on the prairie growing in your faith?

How is not drinking alcohol growing in your faith?

Same with pulling the kids out of sports or watching a PG-13 movie.

It is good that your wife covers her head at Mass… **she should. **

It is optional.

It is good that she only receives the Most Holy Sacrament of Our Lord Jesus Christ from consecrated hands. **That is right and proper. **

Again, an option

It is good that she wants to attend the Tridentine Mass, the Mass of All Ages that is our blessed and cherished patrimony in the Latin Rite.

So is it bad of someone doesn’t want to wear a hat/veil/scarf? Or doesn’t want to attend the EF? What about people that receive from EMHC?

See, what you are saying is that it is wonderful BECAUSE this shows she is growing in her faith. But maybe that isn’t the case. Maybe she is doing all of this because she wants to fit in or be like the women she just met. We don’t know.

I for one cannot assume that she is trying to be “holier than thou” or better than anybody. I can only assume that she is trying to be “holier than yesterday” and “better than before”.

As a husband, you’re supposed to be helping her make her salvation. Please be supportive!

The bottom line is that the OP needs to sit down and have a conversation with his wife. He needs to tell her that pulling the kids out of sports is not an option. That drinking a beer now and then isn’t a sin. And that dressing modestly doesn’t mean that you have to look like frump.

 

[Delta1977]

A lot of you are using the word traditional… But I don’t think that’s what this is. We already had a traditional family and followed the Church’s teachings. I grew up as the youngest of 7 and so even though I am 36, my parents were both in their 40s when they had me so they grew up pre-Vatican II. They were very “traditional” - Sunday Mass was at 8 and we were to be in suits and ties, family rosary, my mom took all of us to confession once a month, Catholic schools, holy water font in the house, my grandma wore a black veil to mass until she died in 1990…

But my mom still went out with dad, dressed up for him, shared a bottle of wine with him at dinner, we all played with non-Catholics on the block, my sister was a cheerleader, we played football and my mom was cheering at every game, we watched some TV, mom played Bunco with her friends… I don’t know what tradition my wife wants to follow but it does not look like what I recall as a traditional Catholic family. This goes way beyond what family life probably looked like for my parents. I mean, in what era were families homeschooling and dressing in sacks and covering their hair full time and pulling away from society?

I just want to be clear that our family was and is traditional, but all this extra stuff is what is getting to me.

 

[underacloud]

I must confess that my initial thought was along the lines of pulling rank as husband, purely on a pragmatic level. But as VeritasLuxMea points out, this is ultimately counterproductive.

As others have suggested, I think meeting with a priest to discuss is a good option. This priest should be one your wife will listen to. This may be hard, because it seems she has people with such influence over her that she is likely to run everything said by them. It’s perhaps just as likely that she will dismiss the priest as not Catholic enough. But this is I think the first step regardless.

You say it’s only a few months. Perhaps this phase will pass just as quickly? I hope so.

 

[newlywed8]

A lot of you are using the word traditional… But I don’t think that’s what this is. We already had a traditional family and followed the Church’s teachings. I grew up as the youngest of 7 and so even though I am 36, my parents were both in their 40s when they had me so they grew up pre-Vatican II. They were very “traditional” - Sunday Mass was at 8 and we were to be in suits and ties, family rosary, my mom took all of us to confession once a month, Catholic schools, holy water font in the house, my grandma wore a black veil to mass until she died in 1990…

But my mom still went out with dad, dressed up for him, shared a bottle of wine with him at dinner, we all played with non-Catholics on the block, my sister was a cheerleader, we played football and my mom was cheering at every game, we watched some TV, mom played Bunco with her friends… I don’t know what tradition my wife wants to follow but it does not look like what I recall as a traditional Catholic family. This goes way beyond what family life probably looked like for my parents. I mean, in what era were families homeschooling and dressing in sacks and covering their hair full time and pulling away from society?

I just want to be clear that our family was and is traditional, but all this extra stuff is what is getting to me.

It is the extreme that you are describing is what made me think of sede groups. It is one thing to wear skirts/dresses and another to look like one is wearing ‘prairie clothes’ as you described.

It sounds as though these women are an extremely close-knit group of women and for some reason your wife really wants to be accepted by them and highly values their opinions about what makes a family ‘Catholic’. Why, I am not sure. Did she have solid Catholic women friends before meeting these women? Were there any catalysts, such as a daughter starting to date or even just showing an interest in boys, that could have sent her into a panic that she isn’t doing a good enough job? I would really speak with her about why she values the opinions of these women about what is best for her family over the opinions of you, her husband.

I also cannot recommend enough beginning spiritual and couples counseling with a trusted priest. Given her current state, your best bet may be the priest who does the TLM. Your wife really needs to find balance in her spiritual and home life.

 

[dixieagle]

A lot of you are using the word traditional… But I don’t think that’s what this is. We already had a traditional family and followed the Church’s teachings. I grew up as the youngest of 7 and so even though I am 36, my parents were both in their 40s when they had me so they grew up pre-Vatican II. They were very “traditional” - Sunday Mass was at 8 and we were to be in suits and ties, family rosary, my mom took all of us to confession once a month, Catholic schools, holy water font in the house, my grandma wore a black veil to mass until she died in 1990…

But my mom still went out with dad, dressed up for him, shared a bottle of wine with him at dinner, we all played with non-Catholics on the block, my sister was a cheerleader, we played football and my mom was cheering at every game, we watched some TV, mom played Bunco with her friends… I don’t know what tradition my wife wants to follow but it does not look like what I recall as a traditional Catholic family. This goes way beyond what family life probably looked like for my parents. I mean, in what era were families homeschooling and dressing in sacks and covering their hair full time and pulling away from society?

I just want to be clear that our family was and is traditional, but all this extra stuff is what is getting to me.

I think it is ironic that - in an effort to recapture what the more extreme “traditionalists” view as the halycon days of pre-Vatican II Catholicism - they are, in fact, adopting outward practices that were simply not in the Catholic tradition at all. Their tendency is to “circle the wagons” and withdraw from “the world”. I tend to think that being a beacon of light and faith IN the world is a better path.

I have absolutely no problem with folks who love the Latin Mass, as long as they don’t denigrate the Ordinary Form, or women who cover their hair in Church as a sign of reverence. However, it is entirely possible to dress modestly without being frumpy, and for daughters to participate in sports without compromising anything. (I know of at least several families who would be considered “traditionalist” who, indeed, manage to do exactly this.)

As others have pointed out, it’s time for an intervention by a trusted priest or Catholic marriage counselor.

 

[dixieagle]

I would really speak with her about why she values the opinions of these women about what is best for her family over the opinions of you, her husband.

This is really the crux of the problem at hand, isn’t it?