Advice to homilists: Please get to the point in six or eight minutes

[wynnejj]

Advice to homilists: Please get to the point in six or eight minutes
by Peter Finney, Jr. … Catholic News Service

catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1103239.htm

"The Pew Foundation looked at why young adults are leaving the church, and the first reason the study gave was poor preaching,"

This article suggests that the crux of the issue of poor preaching causing youth to leave the church is a matter of style over substance.

Whereas the point of “keep it simple & short” is a good principle, there is a more critical factor:
Keep it relevant to our society with practical advice about applying principles with respect to both God’s Vision & God’s Boundaries.

My opinion, the Sunday sermons that I hear do not tend toward the most relevant issues of our day that are destroying society by destroying families. While the sermons are good about describing the Do’s, they neglect to describe the Don’ts.

 

[irishpatrick]

I have felt for some time that homilies should be 10 mins or less. Additional time, reverance and care should be given to the Eucharist–perhaps fewer EMHCs, perhaps less “running around” with all the people on the altar, etc.

We believe that Jesus is truly Present in the Eucharist, and it would be nice to see Masses reflect that reality. Young people might have an entirely different view if they understood, and I mean really understood, that they are in the Presence of God and that they receive Him (Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity) during Communion–that we are truly in Communion with the Lord and His Angels and Saints at that very moment–it is literally Heaven touching Earth and US!

If a young person cannot get excited about THAT, then they cannot get excited about anything.

 

[wynnejj]

I think that I know the reason that my extended family … nieces & nephews … are leaving the Church. They are bombarded with our modern culture that makes Catholic culture to be counter-culture. This is particularly true with regards contraception & cohabitation. We, as Catholics, do not get excited about our values, because we hide them when confronted by secular criticism.

I know why I stopped receiving the Holy Eucharist for years, even though I never missed Sunday Mass. I know what was a stumbling block to me. I would see nearly 100% participation in Holy Eucharist week after week, when I knew that contraception, cohabitation, abortion & other social ills were hardly ever mentioned in sermons or prayer intercessions. I did not care what people generally did, but I cared immensely what the church says about right & wrong, and the church shunned the subjects foremost in my confusion. In polite Catholic conversation, you could hardly mention these issues without being shunned as a religious fanatic, out of touch with reality.

I was definitely beginning to feel that the Holy Eucharist was a feel-good placebo. It wasn’t my good & faithful parents who brought me back to faith. It wasn’t good & faithful clergy & laity who brought me back to faith. I had a spiritual experience, which I will not go into on this forum, that was the turning point. Before that, all the well-intentioned Catholic influences were on a par with any other person whose moral values were laudable.

So the idea of getting excited about the Real Presence is a difficulty, especially when the church for many years could hardly get excited about the real presence of human life with a soul at the point of conception. I will never understand why the unborn do not receive weekly prayer intentions each & every week at Sunday Mass.

 

[irishpatrick]

I think that I know the reason that my extended family … nieces & nephews … are leaving the Church. They are bombarded with our modern culture that makes Catholic culture to be counter-culture. This is particularly true with regards contraception & cohabitation. We, as Catholics, do not get excited about our values, because we hide them when confronted by secular criticism.

I know why I stopped receiving the Holy Eucharist for years, even though I never missed Sunday Mass. I know what was a stumbling block to me. I would see nearly 100% participation in Holy Eucharist week after week, when I knew that contraception, cohabitation, abortion & other social ills were hardly ever mentioned in sermons or prayer intercessions. I did not care what people generally did, but I cared immensely what the church says about right & wrong, and the church shunned the subjects foremost in my confusion. In polite Catholic conversation, you could hardly mention these issues without being shunned as a religious fanatic, out of touch with reality.

I was definitely beginning to feel that the Holy Eucharist was a feel-good placebo. It wasn’t my good & faithful parents who brought me back to faith. It wasn’t good & faithful clergy & laity who brought me back to faith. I had a spiritual experience, which I will not go into on this forum, that was the turning point. Before that, all the well-intentioned Catholic influences were on a par with any other person whose moral values were laudable.

So the idea of getting excited about the Real Presence is a difficulty, especially when the church for many years could hardly get excited about the real presence of human life with a soul at the point of conception. I will never understand why the unborn do not receive weekly prayer intentions each & every week at Sunday Mass.

You make many good points and thanks for sharing those.

Faith is a gift, yet it is also NOT easy. It takes work, and so many today really reject work. The truth is humanity is very far from perfect, each and every person sins, and sometimes we sin gravely. That means plenty of grave sinners will stubbornly sit in the pews justifying their own sins, yet the Church is a hospital for sinners–it exists for the sake of us sinners.

I will state again that if people took the time to understand what the Eucharist is, they would never cease being Catholic, and they would finds ways to attend Mass more frequently, perhaps daily, and they would do Spiritual Communions frequently.

I once was part of a men’s non-denom Bible study. There were several hundred men, and I had attended for about four years. Over time I began to see how under the surface the study was strongly anti-Catholic, and I knew I could not stay. One day, after visiting the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament in a nearby Catholic Church, I asked the Lord to help me make the correct decision about the Bible study. I then went to the study, but all study participants were in class, so I went to the non-denom worship space, and waited for a lecture there. I was alone in that room, which had space enough for about 1,000 people with theater-like seating. Suddenly, my heart felt crushed, and I mean really crushed to a point of near tears (and that takes a lot for me). I looked all over that room and I realized that I was indeed “alone.” The Lord was not there, there was no Tabernacle, no Blessed Sacrament, nothing but an empty room filled with comfortable chairs.

Just minutes earlier I had asked the Lord for help while I knelt before Him in the Blessed Sacrament and at that exact moment I felt an overwhelming sadness for our non-Catholic brothers and sisters, because I realized how much they were missing! I realized that no amount of Bible study, or so-called Christian fellowship, could ever replace being with, and receiving, our Risen Lord!

I made the decision to leave the study at that moment and I never looked back.

Catholics need to understand what they have, and forget all the extraneous stuff–because all that other “stuff” takes us away from understanding that Jesus is RIGHT THERE for us in all Catholic Churches across the planet.** Thanks and Praise be to God**!

 

[Suslar]

At a school Mass for children in 1st - 8th grades, the priest (who is from a foreign country and still learning English) babbled on in his homily for more than 25 minutes. When he got to Point #7 - and not even the adults cuold remember any of the other 6 points - the Principal of the school stepped forward and made motions for him to wrap it up. It took several more minutes. I think a number of the littest kids fell asleep!

 

[irishpatrick]

At a school Mass for children in 1st - 8th grades, the priest (who is from a foreign country and still learning English) babbled on in his homily for more than 25 minutes. When he got to Point #7 - and not even the adults cuold remember any of the other 6 points - the Principal of the school stepped forward and made motions for him to wrap it up. It took several more minutes. I think a number of the littest kids fell asleep!

It is a shame, because the real focus of the Mass is Christ, through His Reaveled Word, and through Communion, which is Real Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. We need, imo, to get back to an idea that the Eucharist is God.

 

[Catholic90]

At a school Mass for children in 1st - 8th grades, the priest (who is from a foreign country and still learning English) babbled on in his homily for more than 25 minutes. When he got to Point #7 - and not even the adults cuold remember any of the other 6 points - the Principal of the school stepped forward and made motions for him to wrap it up. It took several more minutes. I think a number of the littest kids fell asleep!

I can relate! We have an associate priest from a foreign country who can be very difficult to understand. When he first came to our parish, he spoke for 25-30 minutes. It was customary for the school masses to last for 45-60 minutes, but when he did them, it was not uncommon to go for 90 minutes. The littlest kids were zonked out! The bigger kids were antsy. The teachers were way behind scheduled classes.

Short, sweet, and simple is best. There is also no need to repeat the main point over and over and over and over and over, as has been known to happen. We got it.

 

[wynnejj]

Short, sweet, and simple is best. There is also no need to repeat the main point over and over and over and over and over, as has been known to happen. We got it.

Agreed, partially I guess. My dad used to say that you should say what you are going to tell them, then give them the detail of what you promised, then summarize what you told them. The point is that no one should be unaware of what the point is.

 

[Lormar]

Whereas the point of “keep it simple & short” is a good principle, there is a more critical factor:
Keep it relevant to our society with practical advice about applying principles with respect to both God’s Vision & God’s Boundaries.

I can’t agree more. Any sermon over ten minutes and you lose me.

The other thing that drives me nuts is when the gospel is repeated during the homily. We just heard it. There is no need to repeat it.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Obviously I’m in the minority. I love long, well-thought-out, well-prepared homilies. Nothing disappoints me more than a homily which has obviously been prepared by a deep thinker of a priest, that abruptly stops on some artificial dime, when clearly much more could be said. I attend three different churches where all the homilies, thank goodness, are long, theologically well prepared & well integrated, intellectually stimulating, spritiually insightful, and thought-provoking.

And one of those churches has largely young attendees. Obviously the survey didn’t include that parish.

 

[irishpatrick]

Obviously I’m in the minority. I love long, well-thought-out, well-prepared homilies. Nothing disappoints me more than a homily which has obviously been prepared by a deep thinker of a priest, that abruptly stops on some artificial dime, when clearly much more could be said. I attend three different churches where all the homilies, thank goodness, are long, theologically well prepared & well integrated, intellectually stimulating, spritiually insightful, and thought-provoking.

And one of those churches has largely young attendees. Obviously the survey didn’t include that parish.

I think sometimes those homilies can create a cult of personality around the Priest who gives the talk. I personally prefer to keep a tight focus on the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. Yet, obviously, everyone responds differently.

 

[James924]

At our FSSP parish, the homilies are long, and they are the greatest, most catholic thing you’ll here for miles around these days. Our Priests draw on 2,000 years of church teaching on scripture and the virtues and the wisdom of the saints and speak with passion on the need for holiness. Rarely a day goes by where you don’t hear large volumes of Aquinas or Alphonsus and others being quoted in regard to Catholic virtues and holiness. The homilies are guaranteed to be politically incorrect and fruitful for the souls of those listening. And this parish, as with most FSSP and Institute of Christ the King etc parishes, are packed with young people on sundays and weekdays alike, as are the confessional lines and the knights meetings and the legion of mary meetings and on and on.

On the other hand, when I go to any other parish, be it here in Omaha or Tennessee or California, the homily is usually (there are exceptions) still quite long, but its about a puppy, or filled with jokes or feel-good nothingness and hardly any mention of the saints, hardly any words on virtues or holiness, hardly any drawing on the 2,000 years of church history for the readings, but rather a “go it alone” or “it seems to me” interperetation of the day’s readings. It seems I’m always fed stones instead of bread, with the goal seeming to be to make people smile and like you rather than to save their souls. The best I usually get is some type of vague ambiguous talk about the love of God and the need for His help, which although true, is always presented in a way that I could just as well have heard at the local episcopalian or lutheran or methodist church. This is all assuming the homily was orthodox to begin with, which it often isnt.

So I wonder if perhaps it has nothing to do with time but rather everything to do with content. What do you suppose is the primary difference between these two types of priests? And no, I’m not here making an argument for the Extrordinary Form, no, no, I’m purely talking about the seminary. The seminary is where priests get formed, and where they learn to give homilies. One would think that, with so much success coming out of FSSP and Institute of Christ the King seminaries, we might look at what they’re doing and do it in all the other seminaries. And its nothing novel, these seminaries (FSSP etc) are simply being the way seminaries used to be. I’ve heard many diocesian seminaries are more like college campuses these days. Not to mention philosophical error is being taught regularly (thank God for Scott Hahn’s recent Priestly formation initiatives).

I think the directors of diocesean seminaries need to be looking around at whats working and approaching this with a “I want some of whatever they’re eating for breakfast!” type of attitude.

If you’re interested in listening here are the weekly homilies:
latinmassomaha.org/Sermons.html

if you’re curious about what goes on at their seminaries:
fssp.org/en/olgsvideo.htm
fsspolgs.org/

Then call up your diocesean seminary folks and tell them to put reverence and holiness back into the seminaries and purge the liberal staff!

 

[wynnejj]

I made the decision to leave the study at that moment and I never looked back.

Catholics need to understand what they have, and forget all the extraneous stuff–because all that other “stuff” takes us away from understanding that Jesus is RIGHT THERE for us in all Catholic Churches across the planet.** Thanks and Praise be to God**!

Good post. Are you suggesting that Sola-Eucharist is sufficient without Biblical instruction? Are you saying that one shouldn’t question faith in that we get lost by that extraneous stuff? I understand the caution about getting caught up in negativity of our performance, but there seems to be a feeling that apologetics is never to apologize for negligence.

If I were to base my belief in the Holy Eucharist on the empirical evidence of the effect on communicants, then I would be puzzled by what I see with all the scandals that we see in the church, especially when the involved persons are daily communicants. The only reasoning which would reconcile my observations with my beliefs is to conclude that the Holy Eucharist is not necessarily good medicine for the disingenuous - the Cafeteria Catholic. And, selective sermons with selective subjects cater to Cafeteria Catholics.

As a young person, who questions all authority as a right of passage, the Catholic Church taught with selective sermons would not pass the test of Faith with Reason. I don’t believe that the style of sermon has much bearing on losing young persons.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I think sometimes those homilies can create a cult of personality around the Priest who gives the talk. I personally prefer to keep a tight focus on the Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.

Well that does not apply in any of the cases I’m reporting. The priest is simply a priest, not a ‘cult.’

And the Eucharist is hardly being derailed or neglected. The focus is on the entire message of that day’s Mass, with application of the readings provided by superbly prepared & perceptive homilists, who provide examples of how those readings extend into our daily lives, and should be nourishing us as does the Eucharist.

 

[Elizabeth502]

So I wonder if perhaps it has nothing to do with time but rather everything to do with content.

 

[James924]

My dad used to say that you should say what you are going to tell them, then give them the detail of what you promised, then summarize what you told them. The point is that no one should be unaware of what the point is.

That’s how we give briefings in the military and it definitely works. Afterwards there’s no excuse for not knowing at least what the gist of the homily was.

 

[wynnejj]

I think the directors of diocesean seminaries need to be looking around at whats working and approaching this with a “I want some of whatever they’re eating for breakfast!” type of attitude.

If you’re interested in listening here are the weekly homilies:
latinmassomaha.org/Sermons.html

if you’re curious about what goes on at their seminaries:
fssp.org/en/olgsvideo.htm
fsspolgs.org/

Then call up your diocesean seminary folks and tell them to put reverence and holiness back into the seminaries and purge the liberal staff!

Thank you for your post. This is exactly my point. My interest in this subject is because I attended some meetings on increasing church attendance. It centered on different styles of service to be tailored to the audience attending. Or at least, give a style of Mass at a set timeframe where those attending know whether the style is to their liking. Additionally, it was about making the selection of songs more conducive to participation with better cantors. We resolved on an open church picnic where parishioners were asked to bring lapsed or non-Catholics as guests. We were asked to work on being outwardly friendly. I was surprised that we weren’t asked to wear buttons that said “Business is good!” like my father’s employer asked employees to wear when business was bad. It just seemed to me that they were beating around the bush as to why they were losing teenagers as soon as they leave high school. I think it is the fact that there is a credibility gap about the more secularly challenged issues due to a reticence to confront the issues. The church loses its sense of moral authority when it selectively chooses its morality messages.

 

[wynnejj]

I sent this to my pastor to plug for the STRAIGHT SCOOP sermons, in response to our parish meeting about increasing Church attendance…

The Apostles and Modern Fishing

Saint Peter and the Apostles were all to meet at their boat early in the morning to catch fish with the early morning tide. Saint Peter arrived early to prepare the boat for launching. The appointed time passed with the rest of the apostles nowhere in sight. He waited another half hour, but the apostles still didn’t show. So Saint Peter decided that he would have to leave without them if he were to catch the fish while they were still running. So he launched the boat with much difficulty single-handed. It was rough going but finally he reached the place where the fish were running. In glancing back to shore, he noted that the apostles had just arrived.

They were all decked out in new, thoroughly modern fishing gear. They were wearing hip waders and carrying new rods & reels. The fishing poles were extra long & strong, yet very flexible and sensitive to the lightest touch of a fish. The line was high test, capable of landing the biggest of fish. The reels were virtually frictionless, allowing for the longest of casts. And they all had an assortment of brightly colored artificial fishing lures, guaranteed to catch just about any fish. They were betting with each other about which lure would land the big one.

The apostles waded into the sea and cast their lines far out, way beyond Saint Peter’s boat but, alas, nothing seemed to hit their lines. They reasoned that Saint Peter was probably situated atop where the schools were running, so they re-cast their lines like a rifle shot to where the boat was located. This time they immediately got hits on their lines. Pulling back lightly so as to set the hook without losing the fish, their fish were now ready to be angled toward shore. They played the fish brilliantly by reeling in and letting out, pulling their poles uptight then letting them down, and generally angling them wherever the fish took them. After awhile each of the apostles had landed their fish. They were real trophies. All eleven apostles raised their arms with their fish glistening in the sun to show off their prizes.

Meanwhile Saint Peter was doing all he could just to stay within his boat as he wrestled with the heavy net being thrown overboard. It didn’t spread as wide as could be expected if he had help but, nevertheless it was tossed where the fish were and therefore was able to ensnare a sizable catch. The weight was too much for one man, so the ponderously slow, steady pull towards the boat made it all too easy for the vast majority of fish to escape the net. When Saint Peter had finally hauled his virtually empty net, he was greatly dismayed by the number of fish pulled on board.

Saint Peter exclaimed, “Lord, this was hardly worth it. I only caught… one, two, three… looks like ELEVEN fish!”.

The moral of the story is…
Get back to the business of fishing and forget the modern ways of angling with artificial lures. Get on board with Saint Peter, go to where the schools of thought are, cast your nets wide, and pull with Saint Peter using the traditional STRAIGHT SCOOP method.

 

[Zagloba]

“Some years ago in Hartford we all went to the church on a hot, sweltering night, to hear the annual report of Mr. Hawley, a city missionary, who went around finding the people who needed help and didn’t want to ask for it. He told of the life in the cellars where poverty resided, he gave instances of the heroism and devotion of the poor. The poor are always good to each other. When a man with millions gives we make a great deal of noise. It’s noise in the wrong place. For it’s the widow’s mite that counts. Well, Hawley worked me up to a great state. I couldn’t wait for him to get through. I had four hundred dollars in my pocket. I wanted to give that and borrow more to give. You could see greenbacks in every eye. But he didn’t pass the plate then, he kept on talking and talking and talking and as he talked it grew hotter and hotter and hotter, and we grew sleepier and sleepier and sleepier. My enthusiasm went down, down, down - $100 at a clip, till finally when the plate did come around I stole ten cents out of it.”

Mark Twain

 

[Mungling]

My grade ten English teacher once told me, in response to my often long and rambling work, that all good writing is concise. I think this also applies to homilies. Priests should pick a topic, take all the time they need to effectively preach that topic, and not preach about that topic one second more. Just my opinion, of course.