Advice to homilists: Please get to the point in six or eight minutes

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I have seen so many homilies ruined by stretching them out far too long. It is hard to write a homily that has a natural flow that runs well for an extended time. People get drowsy, the kids get antsy, and the point is often lost. One of the most powerful homilies I ever heard was two sentences. Granted that was unusual, but quality over quantity wins every time.

While there has been the gem of a homily that runs long, most seem to reach a point that would leave a real impact in the minds of the hearers. Once it goes past that point and keeps on going, the strength of the message is lost.
 
God comes to us in the Eucharist, and man speaks to us during a homily. One is perfect, one is very, very far from perfect. One has the ability to literally save our souls, the other can only (at best) help guide us to the one who can save our souls, and that really is at best.
No! The Holy Spirit also speaks to us, through the priest. Priests have a special charism to preach which is a grace of Holy Orders. This is one of the many reasons that lay preaching is forbidden during the Mass. And anyone who has heard the abominable & disappointing preaching of lay people in the context of a Mass knows precisely what I mean. There have been threads about that – some of them started by me – on CAF. It’s quite obvious the difference – not only in training, but in gifts – between an ordained, experienced priest’s preaching, and that of a lay person. It has nothing to do with eloquence or personality, or even “guidance” or “the saving of souls.” It has to do with a priest’s very office. The priest’s role is not to lead men to himself; the priest’s role is to lead us into the Eucharist with greater understanding, by relating scripture (for us) to the truths which are contained within that Eucharistic mystery and Eucharistic presence and Truth. The priest, in his homily does not “bring us God”; that’s not what his role is at that moment; the priest’s role is to illumine scripture so that our reception of the sacrament, that day, with that feast or theme in mind, will be more fully conscious.
 
Homilies are not sermons nor are they catecetical teaching. Homilies are explainations of the scripture readings or of the common parts of the Mass.
If homilies are not sermons, where is the venue for sermons?

Where did St. John Vianney recite his sermons (from the “Sermons of the Cure of Ars” TAN books)?

The topics are such as The Duties of Parents, Duties of the Mother, Duties of the Pregnant Woman, Annual Confessions, How Death Will Reveal Thieves, Do you Want to be Happy, The Gift of Every Day, Purity is not Known, Be Religious or Be Damned, The Dreadful State of the Lukewarm Soul, Lost Works, Prayer Commands All, Repairing the Wrong Done, Your Prayers Are only an Insult, It Is Necessary to be Converted, You No Longer Control Your Children, The Sewer of Hell, Bad Company, etc.
 
What factors in “poor preaching” of homilies cause young persons to leave the Catholic faith?

I come from a large family and all my brothers & sisters are practicing Catholics. Their children are raised in the Catholic faith. Yet their children (I’m single, no children) are mostly leaving the faith right out of high school. I’m flabbergasted at the exodus. They all come from parents who practice the faith. They have stable family situations. What has changed in their faith formation that makes them leave so easily?

When I was growing up, my parents didn’t actively teach me the faith. Yet, they always reaffirmed Church’s teaching. As situations came up, they definitely told me what was right & wrong. Learning the religion, though, was accomplished by attending Catholic grade school. And, I admit that I don’t think that Sunday sermons were much different than they are today.

So what is going on? My nieces & nephews have had Catholic grade school education. Their parents are practicing Catholics. Sunday sermons aren’t that much different. What is the missing ingredient?

I don’t think that if I were a child with today’s secular values, yet received the same caliber of Catholic education that I received years ago, that I would be that ready to dump the faith right out of high school. Or, would I?

If my parents openly questioned the faith on various issues, I might question the faith.

If I learned that certain things were officially mortal sins, yet that fact was challenged & common practice by those receiving the Holy Eucharist each week, I might question the faith.

If my parish never spoke authoritatively on these matters, I might question the faith.

I don’t think shortening the homily will do anything for the “poor preaching” problem!
 
Hi,
Homilies are not sermons nor are they catecetical teaching.
Homilies are explainations of the scripture readings or of the
common parts of the Mass.

The priest may not preach on whatever he wants but only
on the above. He is confined to the ideas presented in
scripture. This is what our pastor told us.

I remember when I was a boy(and that is saying some),
I rarely heard anything that meant anything to me.
They were sermons then, topics the priest would decide
to talk about. And they had more stories

I don’t recall any sermons on the social order, most were
about our souls, prayer, virtues, interior life, etc. They
emphasized that the person must be close to God, then
this spreads outwards to others. It was more of a personal
holiness. And these were the topics of sermons. At that
time many of our modern immorality issues didn’t exist or
in a much smaller way. Divorces were down. The pill
wasn’t invented yet. Drugs were gotten as medicine and not
for recreation. The Movies were innocent. Rape didn’t exist.
Murder rare. Pron was unknown. And we left keys in doors.

Society is dragging us down. Priests do say things, but is
it something we don’t aready know? About all he can do
is remind us of our roots and give us some encouraging
thoughts that will motivate us, along with what scripture intended
for us to hear.

I believe it is up to ourselves to find info and read catholic
papers, magazines and books so we do keep up. The pulpit
is not the prime source.

The pulpit is not to teach catechism but to help support our
faith and hear our faith expressed. As Jesus told Peter,
“strengthen you brethern”.

Now I await the love letters.
Well and quite accurately said. 🙂
 
No! The Holy Spirit also speaks to us, through the priest. Priests have a special charism to preach which is a grace of Holy Orders. This is one of the many reasons that lay preaching is forbidden during the Mass. And anyone who has heard the abominable & disappointing preaching of lay people in the context of a Mass knows precisely what I mean. There have been threads about that – some of them started by me – on CAF. It’s quite obvious the difference – not only in training, but in gifts – between an ordained, experienced priest’s preaching, and that of a lay person. It has nothing to do with eloquence or personality, or even “guidance” or “the saving of souls.” It has to do with a priest’s very office. The priest’s role is not to lead men to himself; the priest’s role is to lead us into the Eucharist with greater understanding, by relating scripture (for us) to the truths which are contained within that Eucharistic mystery and Eucharistic presence and Truth. The priest, in his homily does not “bring us God”; that’s not what his role is at that moment; the priest’s role is to illumine scripture so that our reception of the sacrament, that day, with that feast or theme in mind, will be more fully conscious.
NO!

The Holy Spirit speaks to us during the readings, for the readings are the true Word of God. The homily is simply a speech, that if done well can be enlightening, yet if done poorly it can be quite damaging.

We must NOT forget something important with this conversation. Scripture is the Word of God, it stands alone on its own. People, can and should, with the help of the Holy Spirit, derive great fruit just by hearing and reading the Scriptures. The Priest is called ONLY to speak about what the readings mean in the context of the fullness of the faith (the Roman Catholic faith)–they are not called to expand that in any other way.

When we hear Jesus’s Words in Scripture–IT IS JESUS SPEAKING, He is the ultimate teacher, the ultimate homilist, the ultimate Scripture scholar. Yet, I fear it is too often the case when Catholics (today) will listen to the readings, and then they will sit back and think, “okay, now let’s hear an **awesome speech **from the Priest, something that can really get me charged-up and interested.” It makes the readings secondary. In that case the Priest’s speech becomes more important than God’s Word!

The Mass feeds us in two major ways: (1) By hearing the Word of God; (2) By receiving the actual Word of God during Communion. If there was NO homily, everyone would still hear the Word of God, they would still receive the actual Word of God and they would receive just as many Graces as they would had there been a homily. The Mass is about Jesus, not about us.

I realize we will not agree, and I applaud the fact that you derive great fruit from the homilies you have heard. However, even had you never heard those homilies, you would have still received just as many Graces during those Masses. Let us not enter into bitterness in our disagreement. 🙂
 
What factors in “poor preaching” of homilies cause young persons to leave the Catholic faith?

I come from a large family and all my brothers & sisters are practicing Catholics. Their children are raised in the Catholic faith. Yet their children (I’m single, no children) are mostly leaving the faith right out of high school. I’m flabbergasted at the exodus. They all come from parents who practice the faith. They have stable family situations. What has changed in their faith formation that makes them leave so easily?

When I was growing up, my parents didn’t actively teach me the faith. Yet, they always reaffirmed Church’s teaching. As situations came up, they definitely told me what was right & wrong. Learning the religion, though, was accomplished by attending Catholic grade school. And, I admit that I don’t think that Sunday sermons were much different than they are today.

So what is going on? My nieces & nephews have had Catholic grade school education. Their parents are practicing Catholics. Sunday sermons aren’t that much different. What is the missing ingredient?

I don’t think that if I were a child with today’s secular values, yet received the same caliber of Catholic education that I received years ago, that I would be that ready to dump the faith right out of high school. Or, would I?

If my parents openly questioned the faith on various issues, I might question the faith.

If I learned that certain things were officially mortal sins, yet that fact was challenged & common practice by those receiving the Holy Eucharist each week, I might question the faith.

If my parish never spoke authoritatively on these matters, I might question the faith.

I don’t think shortening the homily will do anything for the “poor preaching” problem!
I don’t think it has anything at all to do with so-called poor preaching. It has to do with poor Catechesis. The young are NOT being taught what they have been given by Jesus–so they get bored and and when they get older they leave for other Churches, or they fall away completely.

The faith would do fine if it dropped homilies altogether, so long as it makes a concerted effort to give truly good Catechesis.

Many times I have heard Catholics say things like, “Oh, I want to go to Parish-A because the homilies are sooo good there.” It makes it a personality contest, and it takes Catholics away from what the Mass really is.
 
I don’t think it has anything at all to do with so-called poor preaching. It has to do with poor Catechesis. The young are NOT being taught what they have been given by Jesus–so they get bored and and when they get older they leave for other Churches, or they fall away completely.

The faith would do fine if it dropped homilies altogether, so long as it makes a concerted effort to give truly good Catechesis.

Many times I have heard Catholics say things like, “Oh, I want to go to Parish-A because the homilies are sooo good there.” It makes it a personality contest, and it takes Catholics away from what the Mass really is.
I can accept that the Sunday homily should be short & sweet and strictly focused on the scripture readings of the Mass. In today’s society, where too many inside the church have a tendency to put a political spin on the Magisterium, it may be just good damage control to limit the homily’s topics.

I do believe that it is more related to truly good Catechesis. From what I surmise based on my experience with my extended family where the kids have a Catholic education and they leave the church shortly after high school, it makes me think that their Catholic education is somewhat deficient in preparing them for the moral relativism that they will experience inside & outside the church.

The problem that I see is how to catechize Catholic parents so that they don’t counter-instruct children with their own spin on Catholic teaching, most especially with regards to the Church’s teaching on contraception that seems to be at the heart of the Pandora’s box of secular values poisoning Catholic culture.
 
I can accept that the Sunday homily should be short & sweet and strictly focused on the scripture readings of the Mass. In today’s society, where too many inside the church have a tendency to put a political spin on the Magisterium, it may be just good damage control to limit the homily’s topics.

I do believe that it is more related to truly good Catechesis. From what I surmise based on my experience with my extended family where the kids have a Catholic education and they leave the church shortly after high school, it makes me think that their Catholic education is somewhat deficient in preparing them for the moral relativism that they will experience inside & outside the church.

The problem that I see is how to catechize Catholic parents so that they don’t counter-instruct children with their own spin on Catholic teaching, most especially with regards to the Church’s teaching on contraception that seems to be at the heart of the Pandora’s box of secular values poisoning Catholic culture.
Well said and I agree completely. The problem is most parents just do not understand that kids will, “do as they do, not as they say.” Words from parents are cheap if they are not backed-up with real actions. Telling a kid to learn the faith and to go to Mass and to go to Confession is hypcritical if the parents don’t do the same, and kids see right through that. They figure if Mom and Dad can duck out, or even if just Dad can duck out, then that must mean the faith is really not very important.

Fathers are of incredible importance here. I once read a study that stated 75% of all kids who have a father who is very devout and active in their faith, will grow-up to likewise be devout and active in their faith. The opposite, according to that study, is also true. 75% of kids living with a father who does not care about the faith, will grow-up not caring. The study made it clear that fathers have a profound impact on what kids do regarding their faith, with only a small impact on the outcome coming from their Mothers.

It would seem (my guess here) that the image of a loving father kneeling before the Lord produces a strong impact in children.
 
No! The Holy Spirit also speaks to us, through the priest.
I believe this wholeheartedly. I don’t know how many times that I’ve had a very specific burning question all week, with the question framed in a very specific way, that when I heard the sermon expressed in its own specific, peculiar way - that is, peculiar to my train of thought - that I couldn’t help but think “This guy is talking directly to me.”. Uncanny coincidences too often. Interesting too, because sometimes the priest is not always the one I’d expect to have a special charism to get at the root of my issues - that is, not a personal favorite of mine. I’m thinking of one priest who I could not stand his sermons because they went on & on and never seem to come to a point. He was like a songbird who liked to hear himself sing. But every once in awhile, this songbird was singing the song I need to hear.
 
I honestly don’t care how long they talk as long as they have something meaningful to say. Once they start rambling on about sports teams and what their mama used to say, then it can get a little harder to stay reverent. However, I can listen to Catholic radio for hours so I guess for me it’s less about time and more about content.
 
I once heard a Baptist minister say that the secret to a good sermon was to have a good beginning, a good ending, and keep the two as close together as possible.
 
I believe this wholeheartedly. I don’t know how many times that I’ve had a very specific burning question all week, with the question framed in a very specific way, that when I heard the sermon expressed in its own specific, peculiar way - that is, peculiar to my train of thought - that I couldn’t help but think “This guy is talking directly to me.”. Uncanny coincidences too often. Interesting too, because sometimes the priest is not always the one I’d expect to have a special charism to get at the root of my issues - that is, not a personal favorite of mine. I’m thinking of one priest who I could not stand his sermons because they went on & on and never seem to come to a point. He was like a songbird who liked to hear himself sing. But every once in awhile, this songbird was singing the song I need to hear.
Thank you for your feedback. I appreciate your open-mindedness. I truly think that most of the entire Mass experience rests with the receptivity and openness of each Mass-goer, and not with some dynamic aspect of one particular priest vs. another particular priest, including whether a sermon is short or “too long” for individual preferences. I used to think otherwise. I used to be very picky about the presider, selecting and de-selecting my Masses based not only on the eloquence of one vs. another, but on the style and personality of the priest. Eventually I came to understand that I was expecting the priest to be a mirror of myself and my tastes (and therefore I wanted the Mass experience to “validate” who I am, which was a pretty vain way to approach liturgy!)

And I do think that this openness includes not having particular expectations of what will and won’t be said during a homily, how long that homily is or is not, etc. The most important thing I do before Mass is ask for grace to be fully open and to receive whatever the Holy Spirit wishes me to receive – receiving it via the readings, the homily, the music, the Communion experience and my attentiveness to all of that. Therefore, I’ve come to the point where almost any Mass is one I will benefit from just as much as another. (I happen to be committed to certain parishes & Mass times right now, but having nothing to do with personal preference or taste, but rather my role there which I won’t go into.) There is now only one Mass or priest I avoid, and only because he shouts so much that my ears are assaulted throughout his Masses; thus they are too distracitng for me.

I also support anyone on this forum, or anywhere else, who has legitimate gripes about content of homilies, particularly when those homilies are polemical in nature, in ways that either do not support the Mass, the theme of the readings, the saint whose feast day it is, the liturgical season, etc. – or in ways that diametrically oppose Church teachings. I’m completely supportive of such reasons. For example, the homily I described awhile ago that was a clear pro-gay political speech, which stated that homosexuals are superior to heterosexuals. I found the entire build-up to his point to be a game of manipulation of the most offensive kind, not to mention what “the point” actually was, and a “point” that had zero to do with the liturgy of the day.

Also, posters who have mentioned superficial homilies that lack spiritual content, and/or clearly lack a central theme and/or sufficient preparation: The laity are entitled to effort from their priests, and that’s all I ever ask, and therefore I am almost never disappointed. You certainly have a right to expect seriousness and spiritual preparation. A good priest prays about his homilies at least as much as any lay person prays to prepare himself for all the sacraments. Everyday experiences, secular literature, and news stories can even be alluded to and can be starting points for those homilies, as long as the message is elevated to Catholic Christian spirituality, one which brings us to a better understanding of the mindset we should have in approaching that day’s Eucharist.

But as wynnejj said, a “message” can surprise us in ways that conform to our needs of the moment. The Holy Spirit works through clumsy people and inarticulate people. I do not attend Mass “to hear a homily.” But neither would I prefer the priest to be a functionary who consecrates bread and wine and says as little as possible. And I would only attend a Communion service if there were no other option. That’s because the word of God nourishes me in a different but important and related way to Eucharist itself. And apparently the Roman Church feels the same way about the importance of God’s word, or the Church also, would direct the priest to be silent, not to give a homily, confect the Eucharist and “get it over with,” and would even pare down the number of daily scripture readings.

Perhaps more important than any priest, or the length or content of any homily, is the reverence, the inclination, of the congregation itself. The hugest Mass turnoff for me is a congregation, a significant portion of which is clearly tuned out. They are looking everywhere except at the priest or in the direction of the altar. They are people-watching, family-watching, talking socially among themselves :eek:, reading newspapers :eek:, reading their text messages, and generally behaving as if they are at a casual restaurant or a ball game. It is legitimate to struggle with getting something meaningful out of Mass if you are surrounded by people like that, and if so, do not expect the priest’s homily, of whatever length, to make up for such an irreverent atmosphere. Instead, we should come early and sit at the front so that we don’t have to be behind such distractions or even notice them, or try to attend a Mass that is very inconvenient for most lazy people, such as very early or very late in the day, etc.
 
If you’re interested in listening here are the weekly homilies:
latinmassomaha.org/Sermons.html
I listened to a couple of the sermons and they were excellent. One was 20 minutes long and, the other was 10 minutes. The first one was on Saint Maria Goretti with special attention to her killer’s conversion and addiction to pornography that sparked the episode. The second one was a treatise on anger.
 
Personal Correction: I was wrong when I implied that the Holy Spirit does not help us during the Homily. Of course, I do believe the Holy Spirit helps and guides us throughout the Mass.

Moving on from there, here is a statement from the GIRM:

9. When the Scriptures are read in the Church, God himself is speaking to his people, and Christ, present in his own word, is proclaiming the Gospel. The readings must therefore be listened to by all with reverence; they make up a principal element of the liturgy. In the biblical readings God’s word addresses all people of every era and is understandable to them, but a living commentary on the word, that is, the homily, as an integral part of the liturgy, increases the word’s effectiveness.[18]

There can be no doubt that a homily is both required, and productive when done well. However, most people have very low attention spans and after ten minutes their minds do wander. Homilies kept to ten minutes or less fits well with the majority (probably 90%) of the Catholics sitting in the pews. Some people study, read the Bible, and jump with both feet into learning their faith–those people likely love a good long homily, most do not.
**
A personal example:**

At a local Mass today the homily was six minutes long (a short one). However, during those six minutes the Priest packed in a lot of great information about the readings, specifically about how the OT Prieshood pre-figured the NT, and how the OT breaking of the bread was a type for the Eucharist (Gospel reading was about the Eucharist), etc. The Priest covered those points by giving very good information and covered the fine points of taking these matters into our lives. He did all that in six minutes. Other Priests might have said essentially the same thing and taken 16 minutes or even 26 minutes, yet I found it interesting that in the context of this thread, one of my local Priests proved the point that a very sound homily can be given in 6-10 minutes–well within the usual attention span of most adults.

Let me try to put it another way: most of us have had to do some writing in our education, and perhaps professionally or in our jobs. Good writing is always tight. Good writing is done when a person uses the least amount of words to strongly get the point across–tight writing (which I must admit I often do not do–sorry). Also, homilies are NOT the right place for personal agendas or political opinions–it is time reserved for a brief discussion of the readings (their meaings, and how they impact our lives).

Further, homilies that go on to long are simply not effective. Shorter talks are almost always more effective and people will tend to retain more and the shorter time will tend to force the Priest to be more concise, to be more “tight” with the words he uses.
 
Does anyone really, really believe that the sermon, long or short, engaging or boring, has any real bearing on the reason young persons are leaving the Church?

How does this compare to eras when Church attendance was undeniably much higher?

How does this compare to eras before Humanae Vitae and the sexual revolution within the Church?

With the sexual revolution within the Church, dissident clergy & laity undermine Church authority in the eyes of young persons.
 
Does anyone really, really believe that the sermon, long or short, engaging or boring, has any real bearing on the reason young persons are leaving the Church?

How does this compare to eras when Church attendance was undeniably much higher?

How does this compare to eras before Humanae Vitae and the sexual revolution within the Church?

With the sexual revolution within the Church, dissident clergy & laity undermine Church authority in the eyes of young persons.
No. As I said earlier in this thread, if young people understood what they had in the Catholic faith, they would never leave. Poor Catechesis and a fallen away culture is why the young do not care. The homily has little, to nothing, to do with this situation.

We must tread carefully regarding the Mass imo. Jesus made it incredibly clear that if we eat His Body and Drink His Blood, we have life in us (life equates to salvation, Heaven, eternal life). Therefore, entering into Jesus’ Sacrifice by partaking of His Body and Blood is a saving action–Jesus said that. The Mass is the most powerful form of prayer the world has. Jesus repeated the statement that eating His Body is a saving act, not less than EIGHT times!

John 6:

*[40]…every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

[47] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

[48] I am the bread of life.

[49] Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.

[50] This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.

[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

[53] So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;

[54] **he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. **

[55] **For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. **

[56] **He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. **

[57] As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, **so he who eats me will live because of me. **

[58] This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; **he who eats this bread will live for ever." ***

**That Bread of Life passage is like a NEON SIGN, with Jesus saying, "Here my children, this is important, this is really, really, really, important! If you pay attention to nothing else I say, please get this one Sermon correct! **
 
I believe there should be a concerted effort to bring back reverence to Jesus in the Holy Sacrament. Do that in large numbers, and it will transform the world. Forget the fancy music, forget the long homilies, forget the holding of hands during the sign of peace…just work to increase genuine reverence for Christ in the Eucharist…and then see how everything changes.
 
Obviously I’m in the minority. I love long, well-thought-out, well-prepared homilies. Nothing disappoints me more than a homily which has obviously been prepared by a deep thinker of a priest, that abruptly stops on some artificial dime, when clearly much more could be said. I attend three different churches where all the homilies, thank goodness, are long, theologically well prepared & well integrated, intellectually stimulating, spritiually insightful, and thought-provoking.

And one of those churches has largely young attendees. Obviously the survey didn’t include that parish.
I have no problem with long homilies if they are well-planned and delivered by someone who can deliver them effectively. I don’t appreciate it when priests who aren’t very good preachers still insist on giving 25-minute homilies. Use the gifts you have- but don’t pretend you have gifts you don’t have.
 
I believe there should be a concerted effort to bring back reverence to Jesus in the Holy Sacrament. Do that in large numbers, and it will transform the world. Forget the fancy music, forget the long homilies, forget the holding of hands during the sign of peace…just work to increase genuine reverence for Christ in the Eucharist…and then see how everything changes.
Reverence to Jesus in the Holy Eucharist is a little more than superficial changes.

Sometimes a temple sacrifice is unacceptable to Our Lord…
usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=Jeremiah&ch=7
 
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