Afraid of NFP - using ABC for now

[Serap]

I’m not saying she should divorce him. I honestly believe he could be helped, if he desires that. But I think it’s also detrimental for her to stay, and for this tension to be happening around the innocent children. Hearing their father call their mother an idiot, or stupid, or incompetent, and watching him shove her? That would be terrifying and emotionally devastating, especially when children turn to their parents for protection. How could you trust your father again after seeing how he treats your mother?

Separation for awhile would not be terrible and might also be the kick in the pants he needs to make him realize that she’s not going to stick around and take it anymore - that she’s serious - and that he needs help.

prolifewife, you ask about the definition of abuse. Would you feel abused if your husband belittled you, shoved you, made you feel like an idiot and an incompetent wife, and blamed you for his unhappiness? I know I would. It would break me.

I agree and all the more reason for me to try and pray for change. The next step would be a short separation, but only when I have exhausted all other approaches first.

My husband has been calling me from his conference today acting like a littlle puppy and that’s just from my actions this morning and last night. I think I can make change happen…with God’s grace and everyone’s prayers of course.

Anyway, I think it would be good to contact my dear priest friend. Even if we talk over email or phone, (he’s very busy) it would be beneficial b/c he knows me very very well. He knows what I’ve been through in the past. He could direct me to the right people.

 

[Serap]

I’m not saying separation couldn’t or wouldn’t help. I’m only saying I can see why she is choosing to stay even though others say otherwise.

My husband and I have had our fair share of marital problems. I thought more than once about leaving him. He probably would have been classified as an “abuser” according to most posters here. But, with God’s help I didn’t leave. I stuck it out, even when it seemed pointless to do so. And little by little he changed. He changed and so did I. I started doing all those “little things” that Serap is talking about to make sure I was doing my part in all this. I got therapy and went on meds for my OCD. I started to nag and pick less and listen and help more. And while this may not work for everyone, I can honestly say that I would gladly go through those rough times again for the marriage we are blessed with now. It’s not perfect, but it is definitely nice and comfy.

I can see both sides of the coin. And Serap has to do what she thinks/feels is best for her marriage and her children.

Oh thanks a lot. If you don’t mind me asking, what exactly did you go through and what did you do to spark change? I would like to learn from you.

 

[prolifewife]

Oh thanks a lot. If you don’t mind me asking, what exactly did you go through and what did you do to spark change? I would like to learn from you.

Oh if it were only that easy! Every marriage and every couple is different. What worked for me probably would have no effect for you, unless we are distantly related.

I can say that my husband was open to change. When I started doing my share, he started doing his. When I slacked on my end, he slacked on his. Today, he is the one outdoing himself for our marriage. He works crazy long hours and goes without sleep just so I can have health insurance and good medical care. Everyday I am in awe of the man he has become. I look forward to him coming home and he looks forward to coming home. But none of this would have happened if we hadn’t both done our part in changing ourselves for the better of the other. That and of course tons and tons of prayer. My husband and I both have grown leaps and bounds spiritually. I know that was a big factor in this too. The biggest probably.

Is your DH at all aware of his “issues” and how they affect you and the children? Is he willing to seek help for them for his own good and the good of the family? I know counseling and medication have made me a much more tolerable individual. I wasn’t always so pleasant to be around before.

Also, does your DH have faith in God? If so, do you pray together or attend church together? Praying goodnight prayers and reading the scripture together really helped keep us on the right path. Also talking to our parents seemed to help.

Oh I so hope that things can work out for you. You are a wonderful wife to be sticking this out. I pray that you will experience the graces and blessings that we have. And soon! :console: :hug3:

 

[VetA]

VetA, I think you could at least dispense with the huge, all-caps, and red pronouncements. There is no need to scream at the OP (or anyone else) and huge, red, all-caps is the typed version of screaming at someone.

sorry i do that so that they’ll be noticed, i will take that under advisement and not use red and all caps, is blue better?

 

[prolifewife]

My husband has been calling me from his conference today acting like a littlle puppy and that’s just from my actions this morning and last night. I think I can make change happen…with God’s grace and everyone’s prayers of course.

Serap. I remember you saying that your husband has only been like this since the arrival of your new baby boy. Could there be any possible way he is jealous that the baby takes up all of the attention that might have otherwise been directed towards him? I guess this is very common for men.

From your comments here he does seem like he is at least open to change. Sugar gets sugar in return, vinegar gets vinegar in return.

 

[VetA]

Jennifer J: You write, “While we can’t say whether any PERSON is in MORTAL sin, we can name sins that would be mortal, if all conditions are met.”
–No, we really can’t, because no one can ever conclusively state that all conditions are met…
–…and even if we could, what good would it do anyone? Throwing around things like, “this would be a mortal sin if…” only encourages people to essentially needlessly banter about the state of others’ souls.

VetA, screaming in big bold letters adds absolutely nothing to your argument.

When you write, “if that was the case in ALL situations how could a parent correct his/her kid, how could a priest offer advise in the confessional? with matthew 7:2 i am happy to be judged as i judge because i (in this case) am judging the same as a priest would.”

–You are juding as a priest would judge? Shame on you for even suggesting this! First off, priests don’t “judge” at all. Only God does this, and your hair trigger to judge others – while saying you are “judging as a priest would judge” – is, quite frankly, as inconsistent with a loving God as I can imagine. No priest I’ve ever met would ever dare say someone else was absolutely in mortal sin, as you have to the OP based on 2 or 3 internet posts.

–As to your statement, “seeing as OP meet all of these requirements [for mortal sin] how could it not be a mortal sin?,” I can only respond that someone starts judging the state of our souls based on one or 2 emotional posts on the internet, I’d say I think that’s rather thin evidence.

–A parent correcting a child is far different from saying, as you did, “you already know that it is a mortal sin!” with big bold red letters.

---

Folks, why don’t we try to see the big picture here, okay? OP comes here professing to feel lots of pressure with family commitments, crying babies, etc., and doesn’t want or feel able to use NFP, out of an apparent – and understandible – lack of desire for more children. Reading this board regularly, we all see pro-NFP posts – by people with half a dozen or more children. Some respond to the OP with charity. Some responses are literally, “you’re in mortal sin!”

Now let me ask: Does the OP really, really sound like someone who has severed her relationship with God? It certainly doesn’t to me.

To the OP: You have my prayers. I really can’t offer more. I hope others will be as kind.

Thank you so so much. I wrote another post, but I have tried so hard to avoid bringing my marital issues into CAF, but today, I am really feeling weak and so I did in my previous post just hoping that someone who has gone through it can shed some light b/c right now, all I can see are clouds.

I know that God is with me b/c he has been responding to my prayers with nothing, but love and that’s what is making me feel even worse.

You’re right…a priest has never told me that I’m in mortal sin even when I’ve asked. The priest has always said that only God knows that.

i misspoke, for this I am sorry. you are in my prayers serap, but you know the church’s stance on ABC and that it at least puts you in danger of being in mortal sin. what i said about judging as a priest was wrong for me to say. i recant that (if it is possible). i am 100% pro-life and the use of ABC is a tender subject for me, i let my emotions and hotheadedness prevail over me and as i have said i am sorry for acting like a judge… my stance on this is based on church teaching however and i do not recant the part of my stance that is that no one should use ABC ever. just the same as abortion murder and (unless certain conditions are met that would justify it) capital punishment.

As i have said i let angry emotions prevail and i am sorry for being a jacka**. please accept my apologies Serap.

 

[Serap]

i misspoke, for this I am sorry. you are in my prayers serap, but you know the church’s stance on ABC and that it at least puts you in danger of being in mortal sin. what i said about judging as a priest was wrong for me to say. i recant that (if it is possible). i am 100% pro-life and the use of ABC is a tender subject for me, i let my emotions and hotheadedness prevail over me and as i have said i am sorry for acting like a judge… my stance on this is based on church teaching however and i do not recant the part of my stance that is that no one should use ABC ever. just the same as abortion murder and (unless certain conditions are met that would justify it) capital punishment.

As i have said i let angry emotions prevail and i am sorry for being a jacka**. please accept my apologies Serap.

Of course! I’m a jack#ss sometimes too

Oh and blue is much better

 

[mommamia]

yeah I agree too. My husband IS a very nice and kind man. He has anger issues as a result of abandonment issues from his childhood. He too comes from a bad place. His mom was awesome, but his dad was abusive and neglectful. DH had no love from his dad.

When men have unresolved abandonment issues, they often act out in anger. Women talk about it and cry…men feel like sissies doing that, so they act manly and grrrrrrrr…get real angry!

I am not making excuses for him. It’s wrong. I am also contributing to this mess by verbally abusing him too. My marriage is a mess right now, but if I REALLY work on what I can control and things STILL don’t improve, then I will have to separate for a while. I am hoping it won’t come to that.

I found a great Christian marriage website and it said to do this:

1. pray pray pray - and being Catholic means go to Confession
2. everytime my DH calls me a nasty name, to not react and just walk away - leave the house if need be (depending on how angry I’m feeling).

It said that me getting angry, crying, complaining, etc. is only going to get negative results. It said that it will be way more effective and I will have a good chance of changing his behaviour. He will begin to see that I have boundaries that I will no longer let him cross.

It then said after I cool off and have given my DH a time out, to forgive him and pray for him.

It then said that if DH continues his behaviour, to seek counselling on my own and then get DH to come for a session to resolve the issues. It also recommended me going for counselling regardless. I am going to shoot off an email to my very good priest friend and see what he can recommend.

I am a mess

He sounds a bit like my dh. I have so been where you are at now. I wish I didn’t have to go to work so I could talk to you some more.

But, one of the most helpful things I learned is to make sure he knows I care about his feelings, but not his angry outbursts. The whole walking out and refusing to take it worked well in our family. I would say “I really care about how you feel, but I don’t care a bit about your angry fit, we can talk when your ready to talk to me like I deserve.”

Lots of hugs and prayers.

 

[KCT]

My husband has been calling me from his conference today acting like a littlle puppy and that’s just from my actions this morning and last night. I think I can make change happen…with God’s grace and everyone’s prayers of course.

Typical . . . it probably won’t last.

Only he can choose to change. You can’t change him.

 

[Serap]

He sounds a bit like my dh. I have so been where you are at now. I wish I didn’t have to go to work so I could talk to you some more.

But, one of the most helpful things I learned is to make sure he knows I care about his feelings, but not his angry outbursts. The whole walking out and refusing to take it worked well in our family. I would say “I really care about how you feel, but I don’t care a bit about your angry fit, we can talk when your ready to talk to me like I deserve.”

Lots of hugs and prayers.

Please write me tomorrow! I want to learn from experienced people.

What you just told me is great! I never thought of approaching it that way.

 

[prolifewife]

He sounds a bit like my dh. I have so been where you are at now. I wish I didn’t have to go to work so I could talk to you some more.

But, one of the most helpful things I learned is to make sure he knows I care about his feelings, but not his angry outbursts. The whole walking out and refusing to take it worked well in our family. I would say “I really care about how you feel, but I don’t care a bit about your angry fit, we can talk when your ready to talk to me like I deserve.”

Lots of hugs and prayers.

This is us too. I had to show him I respected him more when he was calm, that when he was angry/yelling. Loving unconditionally was another issue. I had to quit saying “I’m going to leave you” and start saying “even though you are like this I still love you.” Respond favorably when he treats you the way you wish to be treated.

And for the record, what many people would consider “abusive”, I consider more common than not. Many men have tempers. Even my counselor said sometimes men just yell.

 

[shannyk]

Common and normal behavior is two different things. I’m sure it is common for men to yell and call their wives names which is sad in and of itself. It’s still abusive, or if you prefer, bullying. I don’t think anyone suggested divorce, but getting away temporarily for the kids sake if nothing else. Of course a marriage can be worked on if both are willing.

I guess I don’t get it . No one was bashing your husband serap, it’s more a matter of identifying symptoms of a disease. If you let diseases fester they kill. You as a wife can certainly do all the nice and good things you said, but HE is the one who has to take his own weak and I’ll self to be helped. You can’t do that for him. I hope things turn out better for you than they did for me.

 

[mini_me640]

Common and normal behavior is two different things. I’m sure it is common for men to yell and call their wives names which is sad in and of itself. It’s still abusive, or if you prefer, bullying. I don’t think anyone suggested divorce, but getting away temporarily for the kids sake if nothing else. Of course a marriage can be worked on if both are willing.

I guess I don’t get it . No one was bashing your husband serap, it’s more a matter of identifying symptoms of a disease. If you let diseases fester they kill. You as a wife can certainly do all the nice and good things you said, but HE is the one who has to take his own weak and I’ll self to be helped. You can’t do that for him. I hope things turn out better for you than they did for me.

I agree with this completely. And beyond the name calling and yelling, pushing is a form of physical abuse, period. If he doesn’t CHOOSE to learn to control his anger and to deal with conflict in a more productive manner, it will only get worse. He can get over this, but he has to make that choice, and nothing anyone else does can force him into it.

 

[Serap]

Common and normal behavior is two different things. I’m sure it is common for men to yell and call their wives names which is sad in and of itself. It’s still abusive, or if you prefer, bullying. I don’t think anyone suggested divorce, but getting away temporarily for the kids sake if nothing else. Of course a marriage can be worked on if both are willing.

I guess I don’t get it . No one was bashing your husband serap, it’s more a matter of identifying symptoms of a disease. If you let diseases fester they kill. You as a wife can certainly do all the nice and good things you said, but HE is the one who has to take his own weak and I’ll self to be helped. You can’t do that for him. I hope things turn out better for you than they did for me.

Thanks Shannyk. You went through this too? You have been through so much too!! I have read your previous posts about your family.

Oh, I didn’t think anyone was bashing my husband at all! Don’t get me wrong.

I believe at this moment in time that he will change if I help him b/c if anything, he’ll do it to keep his family together and for his kids.

 

[Serap]

This is us too. I had to show him I respected him more when he was calm, that when he was angry/yelling. Loving unconditionally was another issue. I had to quit saying “I’m going to leave you” and start saying “even though you are like this I still love you.” Respond favorably when he treats you the way you wish to be treated.

And for the record, what many people would consider “abusive”, I consider more common than not. Many men have tempers. Even my counselor said sometimes men just yell.

I think I may benefit from counselling. You learned so many valuable things.

 

[Belle10]

prolifewife, you ask about the definition of abuse. Would you feel abused if your husband belittled you, shoved you, made you feel like an idiot and an incompetent wife, and blamed you for his unhappiness? I know I would. It would break me.

It would break me too.

Perhaps this will help clarify things:

Source: merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abuse

Main Entry: 1abuse
Pronunciation: \ə-ˈbyüs
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French abus, from Latin abusus, from abuti to consume, from ab- + uti to use
Date: 15th century
1 : a corrupt practice or custom
2 : improper or excessive use or treatment : misuse
3 obsolete : a deceitful act : deception
4 : language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily
5 : physical maltreatment

Physical maltreatment is obviously abuse; maybe emotional/verbal abuse has a finer line I guess, depending on the people involved?

I think I may benefit from counselling. You learned so many valuable things.

Serap, I hope you will be able to go to counseling, even if it’s without him. I’ve heard good things about Retrouville, maybe you can look into that. I’m glad you’ll be getting in touch with your friend who is a priest. :hug1:

 

[gardenswithkids]

Common and normal behavior is two different things. I’m sure it is common for men to yell and call their wives names which is sad in and of itself. It’s still abusive, or if you prefer, bullying…You as a wife can certainly do all the nice and good things you said, but HE is the one who has to take his own weak and I’ll self to be helped. You can’t do that for him…

Well shanny, then its equally sad when women yell and call their husbands names or verbally chastise and degrade their men too.

I’m not holding Serap’s previous posts against her. But based on some of her previous post, I don’t think she’s married to a total jerk. I think she’s smarter than that. I remember the “Does breastfeeding make you look fat” thread where she wrote this

Serap:

… He told me I wasn’t fat; I was beautiful…

Those aren’t the words of a total jerk, (even if he does act like a jerk at times.) He sounds like a man who truly loves her (and who probably does want to be emotionally connected even if he doesn’t always know how to best accomplish that.)

I also remember a few other things she wrote. And I notice that in general her posts are well written. She’s a lady skilled with words, and I’m guessing that she can use her words to cut her husband down in an argument without ever resorting to swearing or physical violence.

In case it’s not obvious, I want to make it clear that I’m *not *defending physical violence or name calling. Yet there are other forms of verbal “abuse” that is more typically dished out by women towards their husbands. I might be wrong, but I suspect that her husband’s anger might be a bad (and sinful) reaction to some poor behavior and verbal tirades on her part. And if that is the case, I sympathize with her as a fellow sinner. :hug1: I have also said mean things to my husband when irritable and tired and stressed by parenting with little family support.

 

[Serap]

Well shanny, then its equally sad when women yell and call their husbands names or verbally chastise and degrade their men too.

I’m not holding Serap’s previous posts against her. But based on some of her previous post, I don’t think she’s married to a total jerk. I think she’s smarter than that. I remember the “Does breastfeeding make you look fat” thread where she wrote this
Those aren’t the words of a total jerk, (even if he does act like a jerk at times.) He sounds like a man who truly loves her (and who probably does want to be emotionally connected even if he doesn’t always know how to best accomplish that.)

I also remember a few other things she wrote. And I notice that in general her posts are well written. She’s a lady skilled with words, and I’m guessing that she can use her words to cut her husband down in an argument without ever resorting to swearing or physical violence.

In case it’s not obvious, I want to make it clear that I’m *not *defending physical violence or name calling. Yet there are other forms of verbal “abuse” that is more typically dished out by women towards their husbands. I might be wrong, but I suspect that her husband’s anger might be a bad (and sinful) reaction to some poor behavior and verbal tirades on her part. And if that is the case, I sympathize with her as a fellow sinner. :hug1: I have also said mean things to my husband when irritable and tired and stressed by parenting with little family support.

Thanks. Yes, I have said some very mean things. I have verbally abused him too. I am not claiming to be an innocent victim in all this.

I want to begin the positive change. One of us has to for the sake of our children.

 

[ac_claire]

Jennifer J: You write, “While we can’t say whether any PERSON is in MORTAL sin, we can name sins that would be mortal, if all conditions are met.”
–No, we really can’t, because no one can ever conclusively state that all conditions are met…
–…and even if we could, what good would it do anyone? Throwing around things like, “this would be a mortal sin if…” only encourages people to essentially needlessly banter about the state of others’ souls.

Here’s my take:

You’re right in that we can’t judge the state of another’s soul or their sin. Whether she’s in mortal sin or not…none of us can say and nobody should really be asking an internet forum that question. But we can very definitely judge-- straight from the Church-- that artificial contraception is an intrinsic evil and is never, ever condoned by the Church. It would be extremely, *mortally *uncharitable in my opinion, to gloss that over.

To paraphrase Fr. Corapi, it’s never a charity to confirm anyone in their sin.

But I think the OP already knows this. Serap, I don’t completely understand why you posted this thread, and I could never pretend to support the use of ABC no matter the reason. But that is not a “slam” and I definitely feel for you and your situation. I can only imagine what is must be like for you right now. I’ll pray for you tonight.

ETA: just read the rest of the posts. I’m so sorry, this is an awful situation. I hope your husband will agree to go to some kind of counseling with you!

 

[onmyknees]

Hi serap,

I read all of your thread and I am so sorry! I remember how happy you were when you were first married and pregnant.

I like the idea of just walking away and how it works because we are setting a boundary. My dh gets mean, sarcastic and ridiculing at times. I am going to try this myself. I usually get angry and call him on it. He will be nice after that but then it always happens again.

God Bless you. I will go to our Adoration chapel tonight and pray for you.