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Malkin71
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I did ask our Pastor about why the Choir adds words to the “Agnus Dei” and it is not being sung or said properly, he said “Talk to the choir director.”. Are you getting the point?
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Phemie
Guest
The problem with the Agnus Dei is that a non-Catholic composer did a Mass setting in which he changed some words of the Ordinary of Mass and everyone swallowed it hook, line and sinker. His setting has become one of the most popular ones today. You’ll find it in the CBW III, the Canadian national hymnal. Once it’s in a hymnal that is promoted by a national conference, what hope do we have of being listened to when we say “But Fr., the words of the Ordinary of Mass are not supposed to be changed!”
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tee_eff_em
Guest
I hope I have correctly attributed the text
I even *told *you I evaded the question…
(The (unasked) question I answered was: *Has anyone ever produced a (liturgically) authoritative translation of *“pro multis” as “for all”? )
Does a priest have the authority to alter the set text of the Mass?
Perhaps I am being over-Socratic in repeatedly asking the question. It is not meant to be a trick. Fine, I’ll start – My answer to this question is:
No, a priest does not have the authority to alter the set text of the Mass.
Do you agree? Say so.
Do you disagree? Fair enough, what is your answer then?
tee
Re-read what I wrote, because that is not what it said.
I even *told *you I evaded the question…
(The (unasked) question I answered was: *Has anyone ever produced a (liturgically) authoritative translation of *“pro multis” as “for all”? )
Some criminals break the law and get away with it – It does not follow that they have the authority to do so.
Does a priest have the authority to alter the set text of the Mass?
Perhaps I am being over-Socratic in repeatedly asking the question. It is not meant to be a trick. Fine, I’ll start – My answer to this question is:
No, a priest does not have the authority to alter the set text of the Mass.
Do you agree? Say so.
Do you disagree? Fair enough, what is your answer then?
tee
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THADDSON
Guest
A priest when celebrating mass need to follow the canon.He has no right to change the words of the canon. He can in some precise moments of the liturgy use his own words but should be very careful not to use different words espercially during the concecration.
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Malkin71
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I agree.
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tee_eff_em
Guest
Great!
Now: Do you, [user]Malkin71[/user], have the authority to alter the set text of the Mass?
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tee_eff_em
Guest
And FTR:
I would not ordinarily translate *pro multis *as “for all”.
But the ICEL, the English speaking conferences of bishops, and the Apostolic See did not consult with me on the matter. “For all” being the currently offered, approved, and promulgated text, unless and until that changes, that is what an English speaking priest should say.
tee
I would not ordinarily translate *pro multis *as “for all”.
But the ICEL, the English speaking conferences of bishops, and the Apostolic See did not consult with me on the matter. “For all” being the currently offered, approved, and promulgated text, unless and until that changes, that is what an English speaking priest should say.
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revelations
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My brother, i too am a lector. I don’t read to show others how to do it. I read to God, for God, and for His word. I don’t genuflect for the sake of others, to show them how to give honor and respect. I genuflect because i fear the Lord, and I must show Him due honor.
The day i do it to show other people “how good i can do it” is the day i will stop.
The mass is not about us; it is about God. I applaud your efforts, truly, but you must reconsider your approach. It is hostile to the authority of the priest, and therefore hostile to the mass. Sometimes i make a gaffe with grammar or wording on the intentions, but i never change them.
I seriously ask you to consider your intentions, and prayerfully reflect on them.
May the spirit of God be with you,
-revelations
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Malkin71
Guest
I am not altering the text of Mass. I am standing up to moderinsts, liberals and feminists who believe the Mass and Church should change and be up with the times.
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Malkin71
Guest
You are right! Odd isn’t how the the translation is different. The more reason why it should never have been changed.
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tee_eff_em
Guest
The omission of words from the Lectionary text is an alteration.
You are being liberal.
:twocents:
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Malkin71
Guest
Our Parish has a newer sound system. The problem is when people speak they do not adjust the microphone nor do they know how far from the microphone from which to speak. Also, a lot of the lectors male and female speak in a lower tone. When I took Public Speaking classes in college The teachers went over posture, voice tone, etc. during the course. I am not bragging about my classes. I am just saying from the background I got from the class and the former Pastor of my Parish whom you could hear loud and clearly throughout the whole building. I was using those guides to help me when I am speaking at Mass.
It is true the majority of the people at Mass do not Genuflect at Mass. I make sure I do. If people think I am flaunting my “Badge of Traditionalism” So be it!
The petitions come from a book. When you read them they sound very Protestant like.
No offense. Like what is stated above. The Tabernacle contains the “PHYSICAL PRESENCE OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST”! If we can not pay respect to him by correctly correcting the “Communial Meal” or “Gathering” to “The HOLY SACRAFICE OF MASS” then we fail to be called Catholics!
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Traditional_Ang
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Ockham:
NO ONE is ever disobedient for reporting liturgical or other abuses to the appropriate authorities. Just remember to report REAL ABUSES and not the “Ticky-Tack Fouls” & “Matters of Taste” I often see posted on Catholic Answers…
Part of the deal is knowing when the cry, “Foul!” so those who have to read your reports know they can take you seriously.
Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael
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Malkin71
Guest
Exactly! It is ok to reinvent and change the Words, I.E Lamb of God you take away the sins of the world have mercy on us. Prince Of Peace you take away the sins of the world have mercy on us. Savior of the world Grant us your peace. This is all fine and the majority takes it in and has no problem with it. But, the few who question it are told to “get over it”. If you try to be reverent you get attacked.
This is why I am taking a stand! I am tired of all the experimenting with the Mass. The Holy Father should make it manditory that all prayers in the Mass be change and said in Latin and that when the prayers are fixed their fixed!
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Malkin71
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Traditional_Ang
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Malkin:
Christ is Risen!
30 years ago, when I was at a LARGE Parish, I actually overwhelmed the sound system singing the “Alleluia” - Man, did I wake people up! This NERVOUS Sri Lankan priest had asked me to do it, in order to distract people for a few minutes, and did it ever work!
This is an important question - How much of what you’ve posted here have you discussed with you NEW Pastor? and, Have you tired to teach some of your fellow Lectors how to annunciate and how to deal with the microphone?..
I think I made it clear that the Vatican doesn’t allow the Holy Eucharist to be referred to as a “Communal Gathering” - That’s in the GIRM. The GIRM also prohibits us from referring to the Lord’s Body and Blood as a “Communion Meal”. If someone (or a committee) in you parish has elected to purchase or print books that refer to the Holy Eucharist or to the Lord’s Body and Blood in those terms, you really do need to talk to your Pastor. Consistently referring to the Holy Eucharist and to the Lord’s Body and Blood in those terms would cause the lack of reverence and have the effects you’ve reported, and there’s nothing you can do to reverse it short of concerted action by your Pastor.
The one-time substitution with the correct terms isn’t going to even begin to do the job, esp. as you don’t have the authority, and aren’t perceived as having the authority, to do what you’re doing.
I realize you will have some difficult decisions to make if your Pastor decides to do nothing about the lack of reverence towards the Lord’s Body and Blood or about these cockeyed books. But, if you go to him and he either decides not to hear you out or he decides to do nothing, at least you’ll know you that this is a losing cause.
When the seriously popular Pastor of my parish got involved in serious misconduct and was refusing to do most of the duties of a priest while involving himself in a cult, I corresponded with my Bishop and searched for allies (and found 2). As this Pastor had set Brother against Brother and Sister against Sister, I had to try to comfort several members who were really hurting, while reporting details to our Bishop no one should have to report about his Pastor (& hearing details back I can’t repeat here).
Finally, after almost 5 months, he was defrocked and left the Church, but the damage was done, and the congregation hasn’t recovered in since, and, because real reconciliation was always put off, the injuries are still there, just below the surface, and those who needed to learn that no church can allow itself to become factionalized ("see 1 Cor 1:10-15), and that those who disagree with them are still their brothers and sisters in Christ, didn’t learn the lesson.
As I’ve heard of other situations, it was, and still is, a mess.
Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael
Christ is Risen!
30 years ago, when I was at a LARGE Parish, I actually overwhelmed the sound system singing the “Alleluia” - Man, did I wake people up! This NERVOUS Sri Lankan priest had asked me to do it, in order to distract people for a few minutes, and did it ever work!
This is an important question - How much of what you’ve posted here have you discussed with you NEW Pastor? and, Have you tired to teach some of your fellow Lectors how to annunciate and how to deal with the microphone?..
Another Question - Are you genuflecting, etc. in order to “flaunt your badge of Traditionalism” at Mass? or, Are you doing it “as unto the Lord” and “in order to instruct the brothren”?
I think I made it clear that the Vatican doesn’t allow the Holy Eucharist to be referred to as a “Communal Gathering” - That’s in the GIRM. The GIRM also prohibits us from referring to the Lord’s Body and Blood as a “Communion Meal”. If someone (or a committee) in you parish has elected to purchase or print books that refer to the Holy Eucharist or to the Lord’s Body and Blood in those terms, you really do need to talk to your Pastor. Consistently referring to the Holy Eucharist and to the Lord’s Body and Blood in those terms would cause the lack of reverence and have the effects you’ve reported, and there’s nothing you can do to reverse it short of concerted action by your Pastor.
The one-time substitution with the correct terms isn’t going to even begin to do the job, esp. as you don’t have the authority, and aren’t perceived as having the authority, to do what you’re doing.
I realize you will have some difficult decisions to make if your Pastor decides to do nothing about the lack of reverence towards the Lord’s Body and Blood or about these cockeyed books. But, if you go to him and he either decides not to hear you out or he decides to do nothing, at least you’ll know you that this is a losing cause.
When the seriously popular Pastor of my parish got involved in serious misconduct and was refusing to do most of the duties of a priest while involving himself in a cult, I corresponded with my Bishop and searched for allies (and found 2). As this Pastor had set Brother against Brother and Sister against Sister, I had to try to comfort several members who were really hurting, while reporting details to our Bishop no one should have to report about his Pastor (& hearing details back I can’t repeat here).
Finally, after almost 5 months, he was defrocked and left the Church, but the damage was done, and the congregation hasn’t recovered in since, and, because real reconciliation was always put off, the injuries are still there, just below the surface, and those who needed to learn that no church can allow itself to become factionalized ("see 1 Cor 1:10-15), and that those who disagree with them are still their brothers and sisters in Christ, didn’t learn the lesson.
As I’ve heard of other situations, it was, and still is, a mess.
Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael
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davymax3
Guest
How would you go about reporting an abuse formally?
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bostonboy23
Guest
I believe Jesus had a word for you HYPOCRITE. You can’t say you are more “holier” then others at this mass because you still use some of the old traditions from days gone by. no one not one of us i don’t care if he was visited last night by Jesus himself is holy. We are all flawed Humans. You are bragging God doesn’t care how many times your at the fatima shrine. Clearly you are one of those snobs who thinks there holier then thou because there butts are so far shoved up their faces they don’t know right from left.
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tee_eff_em
Guest
Could you give citations? I am unaware and would be happy to know them, thanks.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Malkin:
It’s not OK to reinvent the words and change the words, and Canada has problems of its own, partly because the Canadian National Council of Bishops was simply disobedient for several years. They even went so far as to refuse to publish and teach Humanae Vitae when it Pope Paul VI Promulgated it in 1967.
I’m sure that Council is still getting over that problem and needs all the help and encouragement for obedience and submission we can give them. that’s one reason several of us joined in the Letter Writing Campaign on behalf of Bishop Henry of Alberta a couple of years ago when he was being harrased by the “Human Rights Commission”…
Ask yourself if those who are “attacking you” are attacking you for “Being reverent” or if there is something else such as Sinful Pharisaical Pride - Please make sure you do a good examination of conscience to make sure the problem isn’t “On your side of the street”. If that’s not the case, PRAY and ask QUIETLY if there isn’t something that’s bothering them when you do what you do. PRAY FIRST!
Remember, It’s not our job to “make a stand”. If your pastor refuses to do the Liturgy in conformity with the Norms as set forth within the GIRM and in a manner consistent with the guidelines set by the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, and your Bishop Ordinary refuses to enforce those, go to your Latin Masses (where you’ve said you feel at home) and/or find a parish where they are worshiping the Lord in a more reverent manner.
Unless you have reason to believe your Pastor will back you on this, leave - It’s just not worth the hassle and heartache.
Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael
It’s not OK to reinvent the words and change the words, and Canada has problems of its own, partly because the Canadian National Council of Bishops was simply disobedient for several years. They even went so far as to refuse to publish and teach Humanae Vitae when it Pope Paul VI Promulgated it in 1967.
I’m sure that Council is still getting over that problem and needs all the help and encouragement for obedience and submission we can give them. that’s one reason several of us joined in the Letter Writing Campaign on behalf of Bishop Henry of Alberta a couple of years ago when he was being harrased by the “Human Rights Commission”…
No one should be told to “Get over it” on either side, and that includes the “Progressives” when they’re wrong and trying to distort the Teaching of the Church. At the same time, we need to work on our timing and our approach so that those we approach will listen to us and will be in more of a mood to accept what we have to say. As St. Paul said, We’re to “Speak the truth in love”. That doesn’t mean collaring some poor soul as he’s hurrying from one place to another - It might mean volunteering to give him a ride or buying him lunch or asking if we can make an appointment to talk later…
Ask yourself if those who are “attacking you” are attacking you for “Being reverent” or if there is something else such as Sinful Pharisaical Pride - Please make sure you do a good examination of conscience to make sure the problem isn’t “On your side of the street”. If that’s not the case, PRAY and ask QUIETLY if there isn’t something that’s bothering them when you do what you do. PRAY FIRST!
Remember, It’s not our job to “make a stand”. If your pastor refuses to do the Liturgy in conformity with the Norms as set forth within the GIRM and in a manner consistent with the guidelines set by the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, and your Bishop Ordinary refuses to enforce those, go to your Latin Masses (where you’ve said you feel at home) and/or find a parish where they are worshiping the Lord in a more reverent manner.
Unless you have reason to believe your Pastor will back you on this, leave - It’s just not worth the hassle and heartache.
Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael
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