Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Game on. As I said last night, let’s discuss what I think is far and away the most (name removed by moderator)ortant deviation from Scripture by the Catholic church, the break from the pure gospel of grace. Let’s talk about what Paul meant in Ephesians 2:8,9 and look at it in light of Romans 3 and 4. We could throw in that passage where Jesus was asked, “What must we do to work the works of God?” Do you remember what he said?

Do you even know that the Catholic Church teaches about grace?

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

There is therefor now NO condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus-Rom 12:1

In Christ. That means those who remain, right?

Who remains in Christ?

John 15

Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

 

[Martin777]

Do you even know that the Catholic Church teaches about grace?

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God’s gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47

2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50

I love that! To be honest I know more about what Catholics have told me about it than what the documents say. The thing that has always concerned me is when I hear that we have to add something to what Christ did on the cross to be saved. The words you quoted portray a very high view of God’s unmerited initiative in salvation. And if I read them correctly, they are saying that we couldn’t even choose to believe until God woke us up and gave us the faith to do it. Is that what you belive?

 

[notsmart]

In Christ. That means those who remain, right?

Who remains in Christ?

John 15

Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Does this mean once I say I believe in Christ, I don’t have to obey his commands anymore? Or that if I don’t I was never one of his to begin with?
:ehh:

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I love that! To be honest I know more about what Catholics have told me about it than what the documents say. The thing that has always concerned me is when I hear that we have to add something to what Christ did on the cross to be saved. The words you quoted portray a very high view of God’s unmerited initiative in salvation. And if I read them correctly, they are saying that we couldn’t even choose to believe until God woke us up and gave us the faith to do it. Is that what you belive?

Yes.

However, where I differ from reformed Christians is that I truly believe that God has given all men the ability to respond to his grace.

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin.

We all choose to follow or reject God.

What’s your thought?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Does this mean once I say I believe in Christ, I don’t have to obey his commands anymore? Or that if I don’t I was never one of his to begin with?
:ehh:

It means that believing is step one, not the final step.

Faith without works is dead.

Pick up your cross and follow!

 

[notsmart]

I love that! To be honest I know more about what Catholics have told me about it than what the documents say. The thing that has always concerned me is when I hear that we have to add something to what Christ did on the cross to be saved. The words you quoted portray a very high view of God’s unmerited initiative in salvation. And if I read them correctly, they are saying that we couldn’t even choose to believe until God woke us up and gave us the faith to do it. Is that what you belive?

I think every case is unique. Don’t you? Or are we all predictable puppets?

 

[Martin777]

Does this mean once I say I believe in Christ, I don’t have to obey his commands anymore? Or that if I don’t I was never one of his to begin with?
:ehh:

Very good question. Paul says, “Being confident of this very thing: that He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.” All whom He has set his love upon will remain in Him. Failing at various points, but remaining in Him.

 

[notsmart]

It means that believing is step one, not the final step.

Faith without works is dead.

Pick up your cross and follow!

I thought so. I just keep hearing that I will only offend God with my attempts to humour him with filthy rags. Even though, by the same token, if I have the spirit in me, I can’t help but do good things that please him.
But, if I do things, I am “trying to earn heaven”
Sounds like a loose loose situation!

 

[notsmart]

Very good question. Paul says, “Being confident of this very thing: that He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.” All whom He has set his love upon will remain in Him. Failing at various points, but remaining in Him.

So, not obeying Christ after confessing a belief in him, is not going to earn me hell right? Because once I am saved, He wont forget me?
But, will I forget him?
Hmmmmm

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Very good question. Paul says, “Being confident of this very thing: that He who began a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.” All whom He has set his love upon will remain in Him. Failing at various points, but remaining in Him.

Confidence, ie. HOPE, is a virtue.

Paul was not claiming to believe the modern doctrine of once saved always saved.

He also said this:

Phil 3

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

 

[Martin777]

I thought so. I just keep hearing that I will only offend God with my attempts to humour him with filthy rags. Even though, by the same token, if I have the spirit in me, I can’t help but do good things that please him.
But, if I do things, I am “trying to earn heaven”
Sounds like a loose loose situation!

A person who has been sealed, born again, justified (all past tense, done, with lasting results) can still sin this side of heaven. We don’t want to, and it is now against our nature as new creatures in Christ, and oir Father will discipline ,ot punish) us. But Rom 8:1 says there remains how much condemnation for us? NONE. That is why Paul could say “all things are lawful for us”! Grace is so amazing, it seems dangerous. But the law (or threats of punishment for violation), according to Paul, only stirs up sin! It never succeeds in preventing it. If you are a true believer you serve out of “newness of the spirit” rather than the oldness of the law.

 

[Cinette]

To put it in simple terms:
Mary’s parents most likely where not only Jewish but specially chosen by God because of their humility and devotion to Him. They lived their marriage chaste, being happing with the children God had given them and devoting their whole lives to raising their them and helping those in need. Something beyond their own nature brought them together to concieve once more, the Holy Spirit. This is my best explanation for the immaculate conception of Mary and why she was not effected by original sin, and live totally obedient to God.

If you can not understand this ask for God to come into your life and search for him with all your heart, repent of your sins, pray for the Holy Spirit to come into you. We are not able to see and understand our faith with out all three persons of the Trinity. Read The Bible and pray for the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said the Church was under Peter, and Peter said that it was under those he assigned it to and the gates of Hell cannot destroy it. Therefor it exists and is available to all people. We are not perfect, but the Church is. The Church are the parts of the people that represent Jesus, in tradition and scripture. The Bible is half of the Church truth, whatever is supported by the Bible and visa versa then is the Church. The Catholic Tradition is living the Bible in truth, though some of it members have fell short. Jesus said that unless those members repent, they will be replaced with others.

Let us build each other up for holieness.

Pleased to meet you LiberalCatholic!

I see you are 24 years old. When I was 24 I had stopped attending Mass and for a number of years I was a revolutionary etc.

One day an Englishman said to me: “A conservative at 18 has no heart and a socialist at 40 has no head!” I didn’t take much notice of what he said at the time but years later I remembered it!

Now I am a conservative Catholic (no compromise) and left-leaning politically (not too much).

Isn’t that strange?

Stranger than this is your statement about Mary and Joseph leading chaste lives and being happy with the “children God had given them”!!!

THAT is strange, very strange!!

A good book I recommend is “Hail Holy Queen” by Scott Hahn. A marvellous book which will set the record straight.

Blessings
Cinette

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I thought so. I just keep hearing that I will only offend God with my attempts to humour him with filthy rags. QUOTE]

That’s not what the bible teaches:

Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Hebrews 12:14 “Strive for peace with all men and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

Romans 2:6-7 “For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.”

John 15:1-6 “…Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he [the Father] takes away…Abide in me and I in you…I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit…If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.”

Matthew 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

 

[Martin777]

Confidence, ie. HOPE, is a virtue.

Paul was not claiming to believe the modern doctrine of once saved always saved.

He also said this:

Phil 3

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Yes. And Paul of course knew Christ, but he lnoged to know him in all His fulness. But tell me, what sin that a Christian commits in the future was not punished on the cross 2000 years ago?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

A person who has been sealed, born again, justified (all past tense, done, with lasting results) can still sin this side of heaven. We don’t want to, and it is now against our nature as new creatures in Christ, and oir Father will discipline ,ot punish) us. But Rom 8:1 says there remains how much condemnation for us? NONE. That is why Paul could say “all things are lawful for us”! Grace is so amazing, it seems dangerous. But the law (or threats of punishment for violation), according to Paul, only stirs up sin! It never succeeds in preventing it. If you are a true believer you serve out of “newness of the spirit” rather than the oldness of the law.

Paul was specifically addressing Jewish laws of the old covenant, not the comands of Jesus.

Jesus was very clear:

Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but** only** he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

 

[Martin777]

Paul was specifically addressing Jewish laws of the old covenant, not the comands of Jesus.

Jesus was very clear:

Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but** only** he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Where in the world did you get that notion? The whole flow of Chapters 1-7 are about Jews and Gentiles, and the fulfillment of God’s ageold plan of justification through faith.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Yes. And Paul of course knew Christ, but he lnoged to know him in all His fulness. But tell me, what sin that a Christian commits in the future was not punished on the cross 2000 years ago?

We must remain in Christ.

Unless you are a universalist, you must admit that Christ’s sacrifice will not save all men.

Why?

Jesus was clear:

Matt 7

21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matt 25

41"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44"They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Where in the world did you get that notion? The whole flow of Chapters 1-7 are about Jews and Gentiles, and the fulfillment of God’s ageold plan of justification through faith.

Read the words without an agenda. They aren’t vague.

Paul and James are also quite clear:

James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

Romans 2:6-7 “For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.”

 

[Martin777]

notsmart;4533333:

I thought so. I just keep hearing that I will only offend God with my attempts to humour him with filthy rags. QUOTE]

That’s not what the bible teaches:

Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only

he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Hebrews 12:14 “Strive for peace with all men and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.”

Romans 2:6-7 “For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life.”

John 15:1-6 “…Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he [the Father] takes away…Abide in me and I in you…I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit…If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers, and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.”

Matthew 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”

Of course all those tings are true! They are the Word of God, that never changes. But they do not destroy the doctrine of grace. I remember sharing Christ with a man and he wasn’t getting it so we stopped and prayed and then I shared a little more about how ALL his sins were placed on Christ at the cross befor He cried out “It is finished” (Greek word is tetelestai", literally ‘paid in full’). All of a sudden he said, “You mean all I have to do is believe?!” He prayed to receive Christ’s forgiveness that day and he never looked back. 30 years of good works have followed. He has led many others to Christ as well (the BEST good work!). True grace liberates. It doesn’t make you want to sit idle.