Irrelevant; the Scriptures are not the sole rule of Faith; and, “the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth” has said that Mary was immaculately conceived.
underdog - Strike one - deliberate challenge on the challenger in an attempt to derail the thread - http://www.best-smilies.com/smilies/Bang on the head/1xw_best-smilies.com_bang029.gif
I was serious. You’re taking that scripture to mean ALL have sinned and fallen short.
I didn’t know you believed in Eucharistic Adoration. That’s the “Adoration” in “… in the Presence of Jesus (Adoration or in Spirit).”
Scratch the whole Mary not sinning thing. This is the way I see it, I am just a lay person. Okay, Mary’s parents devoted their whole beings to the God of Abraham, Jacob, Moses; so basically the God of their people and the Old Testament, which I believe is the God that created everything. Okay so they were kind of holy people. They got to a point where they were waiting for God to save them and living their life for him. In this process they conceived a baby girl. She was special, because her parents conceived so free from sin, because they repented and were meek and all the other good stuff. Then Mary grew up being loved by her parents unconditionally because that is what the God of the Jews does. Through this special grace of her parents she was like not effected by sin like normal people, though she was still a person. Basically I can admit that I have done somethings in life that were kind of completely against God, though maybe I was not completely aware, I still did them. Mary never did this because of the grace she recieved from God. Then she was obedient to her parents so she married this Joseph, who was also pretty remarkable. Before their marriage the Holy Spirit came to Mary to concieve the Son of God, Jesus. :extrahappy:
And Saint Paul was speaking in general, of course, so Martin777’s arguement is really kind of a stretch.The passage you quoted is not meant to say ALL including Jesus…it is referring to our state because of original sin. Mary was saved and preserved from that stain of sin from the moment of her conception. We can read this to say ALL in the sense that all except Jesus and Mary fall short of the Glory of God. Or…we could say that All INCLUDING Mary would fall short of the glory of God, without Jesus, our savior
I never quite got your stance on this post-death, completion-of-sanctification process we were discussing.
Good question. First, we know all Scripture is God’s infallable word, so there are no contradictions. But there are many apparent contradictions at first glance. I think those men were righteous compared to the majority of other men. But compared to Godi–true righteousness–no one is. Not even close. And that is what Paus is saying. It would be like me asking my son if his hands were clean before dinner. They might pass my inspection, but be totally unfit for a ‘holy’ operating room at the hospital. Or I could teach a golf class for six year olds and say, “Johnny is good.”. But then what is he like compared to Tiger? Horrific!
…except for the OSAS nuts!
npatrol: :bluelite:Underdog,
:**Hi Martin,
** **I bet Agnot is fine with the thread.
No. This thread has been started in a particular way. If you want to start your own thread with that as the topic, fine. But, if you ae going to post on this thread then you really need to stay on topic.
Not quite. The basic foundatin of Protestantism is that there is ONLY the Bible… and this is not even a complete Bible. The troubles with this concept are legion - but, the single issue of interst is that there really is no where in Catholic teaching that contradicts the Bible. This means the Bible says, “X” and the Catholic Chruch teaches “Y”.
Well, yes and no. I confess to being a bit disappointed after reading 19 pages and more than 220 posts since getting in from work I have still to be confounded by a piece of evidence that proves the catholic church teaches even one thing that contradicts the Bible. Caan I ask people who submit claims like ‘‘purgatory’’ ‘‘Mary’’ etc to nmot just say the words. Rather present the case that the clearly demonatrate the churches teachings on these matters contradict the Bible.
Ama gona 'point you maw deputy son
Oh my.…Benedictus, if you read 1 Cor 5:14 that way I can see how you came up with that set of negative conclusions…but may I humbly submit fine sir that you’re reading the verse…BACKWARDS. Let’s see, I need an analogy…ok,
Christ forgave the “Good Theif”. We have the Word of God that this man went to Heaven. But, like Steve b clearly pointed out in an earlier post, it does not mean that the “Good Thief” did not go to Purgatory first. The Bible is silent on this point. You are free to think and believe what you will as long as you believe he went to Heaven.
) Think so… then be my guest and go for it… But, stop trying to fit your thread into this established thread. 
Greetings, bro! I think you stepped in it there in the first sentence. Major violation of doctrine and the place where many lose their way. I am speaking of your comment that Paul made many errors when he spoke. You of course were referring to when he spoke in his letters of the (now) Canon. Paul was human and erred like the rest of us, but when he wrote those letters, they were there very breath of God ("…God-breathed") they were inerrant. All that follows from the mouths of men (including popes) must submit to them and line up with them. You know that is basic doctrine.**Hi Martin,
**Errrrr… Paul wasn’t God, buddy! He made errors in many things he said and did. Yup, he was human, speaking in human terms, to a particular group of people about a particular thing! If He had been asked ‘Paul, what about Jesus’ Mother" probably He would have said “Everyone know she was born without sin, of course. I wasn’t talking about her.” But just like you, I can’t “prove” that neither. What I can prove is that it is absolutely true that mary was born without any sin! How? Easy by ignoring stupid sola scriptura which is said to be as dumb as Sola Gratia or Sola Fide or the other two solas!
In the Constitution Ineffabilis Deus of 8 December, 1854, Pope Pius IX pronounced and defined that theBlessed Mother Mary “in the first instance of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace granted byGod, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of thehuman race, was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin” Since he spoke with papal infallibility we know that it is 100% true! I am sure the next thing our “separated brethren” were going to try would be papal infallibility. So I made sure to mention it since it is supported in our Sacred Traditions and can be defended from demonic attack!.
We can then wait for them to get to the other two lies that Protestants normally use in a feeble, pitiful attempt to make their corrupt, distorted, counterfeit denominations and beliefs have some resemblance to the true church and its infallibile teaching through the grace of the HS!
If Protestants could show that their bible was written earlier than 500 years ago I think they might win a couple of arguments. Some of the things they argue, were written for our church prophetizing about false prophets and teachers to come and Jesus even mentioned that He would deny them. Somehow the Liars twist this to indicate it is the real church that is wrong rather then the group that were being mentioned, "our separated brethren. Not even one of the 100 different rewritten changed, corrupted, distorted versions that were made in the past 400 years can stand up against God and His real church!.
God Bless
I don’t think he was trying to say anything Paul WROTE was in error…
finally my turn on this one(you people sure were busy)