Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

[steve_b]

You cannot prove your opinion is correct.

I asked you to prove YOUR opinion

You have taken various passages of scripture given you, and contradicted the meaning based on a mere, I disagree.

You need to show WHY you disagree, and that your position is correct.

 

[Martin777]

finally my turn on this one(you people sure were busy)
2St.Peter 2:21"for it were better for them not to have known the way of justice,than having known it,to turn back for the holy commandment given to them"…a “saved” person can loose salvation by sinning(turning back form the holy comandment) and remaining there(sin) for if a unsaved person is punished by hell for not beleiving how much more would a beleiver be punished for their continuing in sin.

I see that this way: The first century was a transitional time moving from Judaism to Christianity. It doesn’t say they were saved. It says they knew the way. They drew back from it, but were never saved. I believe that is also the case in a couple of similar passages in Hebrews. Scripture harmonizes, and there is a huge body of verses that proclaim the perseverance of the saints. Would you like me to list them?

 

[tassitus]

I never quite got your stance on this post-death, completion-of-sanctification process we were discussing.

Do you believe in it, Martin, or not?

Gosh. I feel so ignored…

 

[Martin777]

I don’t think he was trying to say anything Paul WROTE was in error…

He was trying to make the point that Paul was a sinner like the rest of us, and while His words are inspired they were still coming from a sinner.

The text is still truth, and inspired by God…but we have to remember God uses fallible people for His infallible purposes

But that is to misunderstand the nature of Divine inspiration. The Word of God “is alive and powerful, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit and of the joints and marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” And…"First of all, you must understand this: No prophecy in Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,because no prophecy ever originated through a human decision. Instead, men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."II Peter 1:20-21
God saw to it that when fallable men wrote what would becom the Bible, they wrote inerrantly. All the denominations and any church in existence rises or falls with their understanding of that truth.

 

[Techno2000]

I see that this way: The first century was a transitional time moving from Judaism to Christianity. It doesn’t say they were saved. It says they knew the way. They drew back from it, but were never saved. I believe that is also the case in a couple of similar passages in Hebrews. Scripture harmonizes, and there is a huge body of verses that proclaim the perseverance of the saints. Would you like me to list them?

Matthew 12:43-45 (English Standard Version)

Return of an Unclean Spirit
“When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none.Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation.”

 

[Martin777]

Matthew 12:43-45 (English Standard Version)

Return of an Unclean Spirit
“When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it passes through waterless places seeking rest, but finds none.Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds the house empty, swept, and put in order. Then it goes and brings with it seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there, and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So also will it be with this evil generation.”

I don’t think that contradicts what I stated.
I have to go to my son’s wrestling meet, so…unless I can steal a few posting minutes on my Blackberry, I will have to joust later with all you Roman wizards! God Bless.

 

[benedictus2]

2Tim 1:16 The Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain; 17 but when he arrived in Rome, he sought me out very zealously and found me. 18 The Lord grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day–and you know very well how many ways he ministered to me F3 at Ephesus.

This verse is justification of Purgatory?
Purgatory is nonBiblical because it is not in the bible.

Okay, in case you missed it, here is my point regarding that passage:

1. Paul was praying for mercy for a dead Onesiphorus.
2. If there are only two states, Heaven and Hell, why would he pray for him.
3. If Onesiphorous is in Heaven, no point on praying for God to have mercy. Hey, the guy is already in heaven so why pray to get him to heaven?
4. If he is in Hell, no point again, because there is no getting out of Hell, the guy has been damned.
5. Ergo, Onesiphorous could only be in a state between heaven and hell where Paul’s prayers can still mean something.

“Purgatory is not Biblical because it is not in the Bible.”
Did you actually read the first part of my post? Neither is the word Trinity? Does that mean we cannot believe in the Trinity?

Just because the word is not in the Bible does not mean the concept is not there. A similar concept in the OT is sheol.

 

[benedictus2]

There is a biblical truth- that all of scripture is the truth. This means for anything to be true it must line up to all of scripture.
The sum of Thy word is truth, And every one of Thy righteous ordinances is everlasting. (Ps 119:160)

Now that I say that If Jesus is God how can He sin?

Your objection and your exception for Mary does not hold up to scripture this is a false doctrine.

AG_ where is my prize?:extrahappy:

Gotcha again!!! You did not refute my statement. All means All. Jesus was also a man. ** So by your own admission, Jesus was also a sinner.**

Hands up please any one who agrees with that conclusion.:banghead:

See where it leads you when you don’t think things through logically.

 

[tassitus]

I don’t think that contradicts what I stated.
I have to go to my son’s wrestling meet, so…unless I can steal a few posting minutes on my Blackberry, I will have to joust later with all you Roman wizards! God Bless.

Well perhaps when Martin gets back he can answer my question. He stated (paraphrased) in Post 238 that a Christian’s sanctification is completed after death. Now I’ve asked once whether he has a name for that process (Post 240, no response), and twice for confirmation he believes in the process, or not (Post 267 and Post 282, sortof).

Personally, I think he believes in a final purification, since he agrees nothing “unclean” can enter heaven and none of us (pardon if any exceptions are reading) are “unclean” at death. So though he believes in the process Catholics call “purgatory”, he refuses to give his belief form by naming the process. Yet, if I read him right, he wants to condemn (maybe too harsh a word) Catholics for believing something that’s “not in Scripture”.

So, Martin, where do YOU get IN SCRIPTURE your belief in this “sanctification being completed after death” process?

Yup, that’s EXACTLY where we get our belief in purgatory.

Now, I gotto go watch my daughter whip Martin’s son in wrestling… (kidding, of course)

Peace all.

 

[benedictus2]

What Benedictus has done is take verses out of context and (name removed by moderator)ut a doctrine in where there is none.

No I didn’t. Put your thinking cap on and read my post again.

 

[benedictus2]

Purgatory contradicts this!

BINGO WE HAVE A WINNER!

It seems you don’t know the meaning of the word PROOF.

Here is the defintion: a formal series of statements showing that if one thing is true something else necessarily follows from it

Also:
That degree of evidence which convinces the mind of any truth or fact, and produces belief; a test by facts or arguments that induce, or tend to induce, certainty of the judgment; conclusive evidence; demonstration.

Now get to it. Several posters have asked you for it.

What was that? You haven’t got any?:extrahappy:

 

[Hisalone]

Okay, in case you missed it, here is my point regarding that passage:

1. Paul was praying for mercy for a dead Onesiphorus.

NO IT IS NOT. IT IS ASKING FOR MERCY TO THE HOUSEHOLD KINDA LIKE DAVID FOR JOHNATHNS HOUSEOLD.
2) If there are only two states, Heaven and Hell, why would he pray for him.

1. If Onesiphorous is in Heaven, no point on praying for God to have mercy. Hey, the guy is already in heaven so why pray to get him to heaven?
2. If he is in Hell, no point again, because there is no getting out of Hell, the guy has been damned.
3. Ergo, Onesiphorous could only be in a state between heaven and hell where Paul’s prayers can still mean something.

“Purgatory is not Biblical because it is not in the Bible.”
Did you actually read the first part of my post? Neither is the word Trinity? Does that mean we cannot believe in the Trinity?

Just because the word is not in the Bible does not mean the concept is not there. A similar concept in the OT is sheol.

where is my prize?

 

[Hisalone]

Gotcha again!!! You did not refute my statement. All means All. Jesus was also a man. ** So by your own admission, Jesus was also a sinner.**

Hands up please any one who agrees with that conclusion.:banghead:

See where it leads you when you don’t think things through logically.

Let me go real slow,
Jesus is God so He can not sin.
Mary who was not God did sin becasue there is no out for her.

 

[benedictus2]

LUKE 12:54 Then He also said to the multitudes, "Whenever you see a cloud rising out of the west, immediately you say, ‘A shower is coming’; and so it is. 55 And when you see the south wind blow, you say, ‘There will be hot weather’; and there is. 56 Hypocrites! You can discern the face of the sky and of the earth, but how is it you do not discern this time? 57 “Yes, and why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right? 58 When you go with your adversary to the magistrate, make every effort along the way to settle with him, lest he drag you to the judge, the judge deliver you to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you shall not depart from there till you have paid the very last mite.”

Seriously you guys are worse than the name it and claim it crowd.
Taken totally out of context and Purgatory inserted.
Jesus is talking of earthly things who is your adversary? can anyone settle with him?

Sweetheart, what does it mean to pay the last penny. Everytime we sin, we owe God. Now, if you have been “born again” and told a little lie prior to dying, where do you go since you still owe God a penny. Heaven, certainly not. So do you go to Hell?

 

[twb1621]

I don’t think that contradicts what I stated.
I have to go to my son’s wrestling meet, so…unless I can steal a few posting minutes on my Blackberry, I will have to joust later with all you Roman wizards! God Bless.

chicken :nunchuk:

 

[Hisalone]

Well perhaps when Martin gets back he can answer my question. He stated (paraphrased) in Post 238 that a Christian’s sanctification is completed after death. Now I’ve asked once whether he has a name for that process (Post 240, no response), and twice for confirmation he believes in the process, or not (Post 267 and Post 282, sortof).

Personally, I think he believes in a final purification, since he agrees nothing “unclean” can enter heaven and none of us (pardon if any exceptions are reading) are “unclean” at death. So though he believes in the process Catholics call “purgatory”, he refuses to give his belief form by naming the process. Yet, if I read him right, he wants to condemn (maybe too harsh a word) Catholics for believing something that’s “not in Scripture”.

So, Martin, where do YOU get IN SCRIPTURE your belief in this “sanctification being completed after death” process?

Yup, that’s EXACTLY where we get our belief in purgatory.

Now, I gotto go watch my daughter whip Martin’s son in wrestling… (kidding, of course)

Peace all.

Nothing unclean but all that is covered by the blood is clean. See Passover where the blood provided covering. True believers are covered by the blood of Jesus and are not unclean.

 

[benedictus2]

I have it was so simple.
Luke 23

Quoting scripture does not prove it.

Explain by a series of statements that it proves it. Something like Henning did a few posts back regarding Christ dying for all etc,etc and tying that with the Immaculate Conception.,

That is the kind of rational thinking that is being asked of you.

 

[twb1621]

Let me go real slow,
Jesus is God so He can not sin.
Mary who was not God did sin becasue there is no out for her.

Still trying to win one?
No she didn’t… did you ever answer my posts from yesterday… I don’t think so…

 

[Hisalone]

Sweetheart, what does it mean to pay the last penny. Everytime we sin, we owe God. Now, if you have been “born again” and told a little lie prior to dying, where do you go since you still owe God a penny. Heaven, certainly not. So do you go to Hell?

Jesus paid it all in full.:harp:

 

[benedictus2]

hate to burst your bubble there hisalone, but the forgiveness of Jesus directly in the case you are referring to is not comparable to the average person unless you can prove some regularity to Jesus performing in this way since the passion .

Just in case that is hard to understand, let’s hear that again :
hate to burst your bubble there hisalone,
the forgiveness of Jesus directly in the case you are referring to is not comparable to the average person unless you can prove some regularity to Jesus performing in this way since the passion .