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benedictus2
Guest
That is quite dumbfounding.
Another quote someone said which left me speechless was that Mary’s role was unique as one who stands between the testaments.
Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!
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Another quote someone said which left me speechless was that Mary’s role was unique as one who stands between the testaments.
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Hisalone
Guest
So why do the Orthodox Churches not believe in Purgatory?
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twb1621
Guest
And you don’t believe in the church fathers either I take it…Were is my prize the bible says all have sinned you claim Mary was sinless. You lose
Were is my prize? Are you a man of your word?
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benedictus2
Guest
You forget that you only carry a flashlight when you’re in the dark
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Hisalone
Guest
I pray until Christ is formed in you.
Christ in you is the hope of glory.
Every Christian who has Christ is the arc of the New Covenant. Do you have the faith that Mary had to be container for Christ?
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onenow1
Guest
= onenow1, Not that familiar with J. Wesely. I believe Purgatory is a blessing from God,that shows the love He has for us.
Peace, onenow1
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benedictus2
Guest
Ask an Orthodox that question. I am not an expert on their beliefs.
Is that how you get the Catholic faith so wrong? Because you keep asking protestants what we belive? :banghead:
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Hisalone
Guest
You mean those that were so antiSemite that they would make Martin Luther blush?
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benedictus2
Guest
Mary DID NOT HAVE TO BE the “container” for Christ.
But God** WILLED IT SO.**
So complain to God the Father about that.
You do have an issue with the way God has CHOSEN to effect salvation.
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Hisalone
Guest
God loves you more than that.= onenow1, Not that familiar with J. Wesely. I believe Purgatory is a blessing from God,that shows the love He has for us.
Peace, onenow1
Jesus paid it all. All the price for our sins, Jesus paid it. There is no purgatory.
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Hisalone
Guest
Just as I thought you praise Mary yet you lack the faith she had. God desire that we be a tent or a tabernacle for Him to be the arc of the New Covenant.
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benedictus2
Guest
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Ag_not
Guest
:nunchuk: Hisalone - 5:18pm - Strike One - deliberate inflamatory remark and attempt at rabble rousing with possible result of thread derail :nunchuk:
Stay on topic. Please respond to the question I asked you as Im interested in your opinion. Fear my Nunchuks !!!
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twb1621
Guest
Hisalone, regarding Mary’s sinlessness
The Protoevangelium (Gen. 3:15)
To see that there is more involved than just the fact that Christ came out of Mary’s womb, let us look at the very first prophecy about Christ in the Bible: Genesis 3:15. In that passage, God is cursing the serpent for having caused mankind to fall into sin, and he says,
“And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall crush your head, and you shall strike at His heel.”
Ever since the first century, Christians have recognized this as a prophecy of the coming of Christ, who would crush the dead of the devil, even as he himself was stricken by the devil on the cross.
But there is more than just a prophecy of the coming of Christ in this passage and more than a prophecy of the cross and of Satan’s defeat. There is also a prophecy of the Virgin Birth, as even Protestants recognize. The reason is that in this passage, Christ is described as the “Seed” of the woman. This is very unusual in Biblical language because normally it is only men whose offspring are described as their seed. In the ancient, biblical languages men have seed; women do not. The reason for this is that the ancients often held a particular view of human reproduction which made it more natural to talk about men having seed. In the question and answer period, we can discuss this view of reproduction if you want, for now simply note that it was very unusual in the biblical languages for a women to be described as having seed.
Since it was very unusual to talk about women having seed in the Bible, this means that there is something very unusual about the birth of Christ – the Seed of the woman. It means that he was born only of a woman, without the intervention of a man, whose Seed he would otherwise be. As a result, Christians have always regarded Genesis 3:15 as containing a prophecy of the Virgin Birth. And Protestants are included in that. They fully recognize that Genesis 3:15 prophesies not only the coming of Christ, but the way in which he could come: through the womb of a virgin.
But this means that the woman described in Genesis 3:15 is more than just Eve. Eve was not a virgin. All of the children Eve had were fathered by her husband, Adam, according to the normal course of nature. As a result, the woman in Genesis 3:15 is more than just Eve because Eve did not have any virgin births. Therefore, we know that Mary, the only woman in history to have a virgin birth, is specially in view in the Genesis 3:15.
The Protoevangelium (Gen. 3:15)
To see that there is more involved than just the fact that Christ came out of Mary’s womb, let us look at the very first prophecy about Christ in the Bible: Genesis 3:15. In that passage, God is cursing the serpent for having caused mankind to fall into sin, and he says,
“And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall crush your head, and you shall strike at His heel.”
Ever since the first century, Christians have recognized this as a prophecy of the coming of Christ, who would crush the dead of the devil, even as he himself was stricken by the devil on the cross.
But there is more than just a prophecy of the coming of Christ in this passage and more than a prophecy of the cross and of Satan’s defeat. There is also a prophecy of the Virgin Birth, as even Protestants recognize. The reason is that in this passage, Christ is described as the “Seed” of the woman. This is very unusual in Biblical language because normally it is only men whose offspring are described as their seed. In the ancient, biblical languages men have seed; women do not. The reason for this is that the ancients often held a particular view of human reproduction which made it more natural to talk about men having seed. In the question and answer period, we can discuss this view of reproduction if you want, for now simply note that it was very unusual in the biblical languages for a women to be described as having seed.
Since it was very unusual to talk about women having seed in the Bible, this means that there is something very unusual about the birth of Christ – the Seed of the woman. It means that he was born only of a woman, without the intervention of a man, whose Seed he would otherwise be. As a result, Christians have always regarded Genesis 3:15 as containing a prophecy of the Virgin Birth. And Protestants are included in that. They fully recognize that Genesis 3:15 prophesies not only the coming of Christ, but the way in which he could come: through the womb of a virgin.
But this means that the woman described in Genesis 3:15 is more than just Eve. Eve was not a virgin. All of the children Eve had were fathered by her husband, Adam, according to the normal course of nature. As a result, the woman in Genesis 3:15 is more than just Eve because Eve did not have any virgin births. Therefore, we know that Mary, the only woman in history to have a virgin birth, is specially in view in the Genesis 3:15.
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benedictus2
Guest
Is that the best you can do in answer to my post?
That is a non-sequitur if you read my post again.
Non-sequitur: A logical fallacy meaning “it does not follow”. A statement that does not follow logically from the stated facts. A comment that has no relation to the preceeding comment.
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benedictus2
Guest
Prove there isn’t.
prove.prove.prove.prove.prove.prove.prove.prove.prove.
You get our drift?
There is God’s mercy and there is God’s justice. How do you reconcile the two.
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benedictus2
Guest
Where is Paradise? Is it in Heaven or in Hell?
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Ag_not
Guest
And as John Martinoni noted here which I thought was a brillant insight, if you sin, you do NOT have enmity between you and the devil as you are doing the devils work. So if God has put enmity between the devil and ‘’‘the woman’’ the woman is not in sin.
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twb1621
Guest
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, “be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.” We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God’s graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and “under the earth” which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
continued at scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html#purgatory-I
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Hisalone
Guest
Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) – A ecclesiastical writer and teacher who contributed to the early formation of Christian doctrines.
We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by God to the blessed election.
John Chrysostom (344-407 A.D.) – One of the “greatest” of church fathers; known as “The Golden Mouthed.” A missionary preacher famous for his sermons and addresses.
The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.
From “The Roots of Christian Anti-Semitism” by Malcolm Hay
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