Ag_nots Catholic Scriptural Challenge - just ONE proven example wins!!

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Martin777 said:
I think I finally found a verse that sums up the critical differemce in what we believe about grace–Paul says in Rom 8 that we “have not received a spirit of fear again, leading to bondage, but we have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry out, ‘Abba, Father!’”. What you proclaim carries with it a note of fear. And the assumption is that if you don’t instill some fear in people, they just won’t perform! That is LAW, my friend. And the truly born again person is out from under that system. Paul says it is no longer about fear and bondage! It is about unconditional acceptance from a Father who has the power, love, desire and promise to complete the work He has begun in me, and to be to me FOREVER the perfect Father. That’s a critical difference between the RCC and Evangelicals.
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how do temper this belief with St.Paul’s letter to the Roman’s 6:16"do you not know that to whom you ofer yourselves as SLAVES for obedience,to Him you obey you are the SLAVES ,whether to sin unto death or to obedience unto JUSTICE"so St.Paul changed his mind(or should we say the Holy Spirit) later on in this letter.
 
twb1621 said:
  1. [In order to learn] that bodies did continue in existence for a lengthened period, as long as it was God’s good pleasure that they should flourish, let [these heretics] read the Scriptures, and they will find that our predecessors advanced beyond seven hundred, eight hundred, and nine hundred years of age; and that their bodies kept pace with the protracted length of their days, and participated in life as long as God willed that they should live. But why do I refer to these men? For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up. For by means of the very same hands through which they were moulded at the beginning, did they receive this translation and assumption. For in Adam the hands of God had become accustomed to set in order, to rule, and to sustain His own workmanship, and to bring it and place it where they pleased. Where, then, was the first man placed? In paradise certainly, as the Scripture declares And God planted a garden [paradisum] eastward in Eden, and there He placed the man whom He had formed. Genesis 2:8 And then afterwards when [man] proved disobedient, he was cast out thence into this world. Wherefore also the elders who were disciples of the apostles tell us that those who were translated were transferred to that place (for paradise has been prepared for righteous men, such as have the Spirit; in which place also Paul the apostle, when he was caught up, heard words which are unspeakable as regards us in our present condition 2 Corinthians 12:4), and that there shall they who have been translated remain until the consummation [of all things], as a prelude to immortality.
  2. If, however, any one imagine it impossible that men should survive for such a length of time, and that Elias was not caught up in the flesh, but that his flesh was consumed in the fiery chariot, let him consider that Jonah, when he had been cast into the deep, and swallowed down into the whale’s belly, was by the command of God again thrown out safe upon the land. Jonah 2:11 And then, again, when Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël were cast into the furnace of fire sevenfold heated, they sustained no harm whatever, neither was the smell of fire perceived upon them. As, therefore, the hand of God was present with them, working out marvellous things in their case— [things] impossible [to be accomplished] by man’s nature— what wonder was it, if also in the case of those who were translated it performed something wonderful, working in obedience to the will of God, even the Father? Now this is the Son of God, as the Scripture represents Nebuchadnezzar the king as having said, Did not we cast three men bound into the furnace? And, lo, I do see four walking in the midst of the fire, and the fourth is like the Son of God. Daniel 3:19-25 Neither the nature of any created thing, therefore, nor the weakness of the flesh, can prevail against the will of God. For God is not subject to created things, but created things to God; and all things yield obedience to His will. Wherefore also the Lord declares, The things which are impossible with men, are possible with God. Luke 18:27 As, therefore, it might seem to the men of the present day, who are ignorant of God’s appointment, to be a thing incredible and impossible that any man could live for such a number of years, yet those who were before us did live [to such an age], and those who were translated do live as an earnest of the future length of days; and [as it might also appear impossible] that from the whale’s belly and from the fiery furnace men issued forth unhurt, yet they nevertheless did so, led forth as it were by the hand of God, for the purpose of declaring His power: so also now, although some, not knowing the power and promise of God, may oppose their own salvation, deeming it impossible for God, who raises up the dead; to have power to confer upon them eternal duration, yet the scepticism of men of this stamp shall not render the faithfulness of God of none effect.
    Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 5)
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with all due respect
Gobbledegoop
 
guanophore said:
You are using an irrelevant verse to bolster your “point” if indeed you are making one. We find that these three persons were assumed into heaven, and reside there with God. It does not make them God. They are all humans, and as humans, they reflect the glory of God, and are not the source of that Glory. We are all made fit for heaven by his grace, not anything that we can do to merit heaven.
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The verse is not irrelevant.
I agree with all points but add one.
All have sinned.
 
rinnie said:
Hail Mary full of Grace the Lord is with thee. Just think about that for a moment. Mary we all know who she is, She is full of grace, Okay grace is good. Now here is something that is priceless. Just Price less. THE LORD IS WITH THEE. Just think for a moment. The Lord is with her. Okay now if someone is with me, IT means they stay with me and we are together. Now IF Mary is full of Grace, and God is with her, but she is sinning to be the band. Then what the Lord is a sinner too?

This reminds me of the China man who]s wife had a baby. And the baby was pure white, pure white hair, and the most blue eyes you ever saw. The nurse said Mr wong what are you going to name your baby? Mr wong responded Sum sing wong!

That’s kinda what im seeing here. SUM SING WONG!
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Noah walked with God. Or in other wordsthe Lord was with him. Does it mean that Noah did not sin?
Heck no. “I will never leave you nor foresake you”
(even if you sin)
 
rinnie said:
All have sinned. But would that no be falling from grace. But then how can you say once saved always saved. Now, now now. we can’t have it both ways. Tell me my partner in crime, where does it say Mary has sinned. Where does it say Jesus has sinned? Where does it say John the Baptism sinned. Show me show me? Get back in the bible now. And show me scripture!
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All have sinned
Is not Mary part of all?
 
Hisalone said:
Noah walked with God. Or in other wordsthe Lord was with him. Does it mean that Noah did not sin?
Heck no. “I will never leave you nor foresake you”
(even if you sin)
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Yes Noah walked with God, you are correct. But where did it say that Noah was full of Grace. Where did it say the Lord is with you. Where in the bible did it say that Noah sinned? Be careful I bet you can show me that Huh. But lets start there show me in the bible where it said Noah sinned?
 
Hisalone said:
All have sinned
Is not Mary part of all?
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Is Jesus not part of Mary? Was she not his Mother. Mother and Son. Is Jesus part of all too? After all ALL is All. If you are gonna group it that way, God is all too.
 
rinnie said:
Is Jesus not part of Mary? Was she not his Mother. Mother and Son. Is Jesus part of all too? After all ALL is All. If you are gonna group it that way, God is all too.
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That’s right, and the Holy Angels have to be in the “ALL” because ALL is ALL !!! 😃
 
Hisalone said:
with all due respect
Gobbledegoop
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Ohmylands! I can’t believe you said that about Against Heresies. Do you realize what a credibility dive you just took? And you could not afford one!
Hisalone said:
The verse is not irrelevant.
I agree with all points but add one.
All have sinned.
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Ok. Well, God created you for freedom, and you are free to impose any man made doctrine and non-Apostolic understanding into the scripture that your heart desires. You can believe that all have sinned if you wish. 🤷

I find myself wondering, though, why are you here? Clearly you are not interested in learning what the Catholic Church teaches, and clearly you must understand that Catholics here are not interested in your different gospel based in the Reformation. What do you hope to accomplish?
Hisalone said:
All have sinned
Is not Mary part of all?
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No, not in this context. The Apostle is comparing Jews and Gentiles, and making the point that the Jews do not have any advantage over Gentiles when it comes to the need to be reconciled to God by Grace. In fact, if you are willing to look at the source of this quote in Psalms, you can plainly read in that Psalm that he is comparing the righteous to the unrightous when he uses the phrase. It does not mean “all” are unrighteous, but he is referring to those fools who have said in their heart “there is no God”.

Another example where it is used is here:

Matt 3:5-6
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan, 6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

We know for a fact that not “all” went out and confessed their sins, and received baptism. Therefore, “all” does not necessarily mean all.
 
Martin777 said:
I think I finally found a verse that sums up the critical differemce in what we believe about grace–Paul says in Rom 8 that we “have not received a spirit of fear again, leading to bondage, but we have received a spirit of adoption, whereby we cry out, ‘Abba, Father!’”. What you proclaim carries with it a note of fear. And the assumption is that if you don’t instill some fear in people, they just won’t perform! That is LAW, my friend. And the truly born again person is out from under that system. Paul says it is no longer about fear and bondage! It is about unconditional acceptance from a Father who has the power, love, desire and promise to complete the work He has begun in me, and to be to me FOREVER the perfect Father. That’s a critical difference between the RCC and Evangelicals.
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True, we do not have a spirit of fear, and yes, we relate to God as our Daddy. You are reading something into the teaching that is not there.

What YOU are teaching is not scriptural. There IS an element of respectful apprehension for the necessity that each person has to ***continue to cooperate with God’s grace.
*** (Once again, not works, cooperation, there is an incredibel difference).

See?

Philippians 2:12b-13 “…work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.”

Read the Scriptures with an open mind, and do not twist everything to fit your theology, and you will see (with great surprise, as many have seen) that it is Catholic teaching on grace that is fully consistent with Scripture, not Protestant teaching.
 
Hisalone said:
All have sinned
Is not Mary part of all?
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It’s amazing you stick to 3 words in the Bible and thrive on it without acknowledging the fact that “all” cannot mean all in this verse since it has been pointed out to you many many times that there are several exceptions to the “all” in those 3 words… You admit Jesus is an exception… and I would think babies and the severly mentally handicapped you would also agree are an exception… so if you agree that these people could not commit sin than “all” cannot literally mean “all”… Even if you say Jesus is the only one… because by just reading those words all would include the fully human Jesus.

But let me guess… “all means all”… 30 more times without adressing these points… If you’re so certain than these should be easy to explain away.

SD
 
Hisalone said:
All have sinned
Is not Mary part of all?
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I think we have come to the point that there should be sanctions of some kind against CAF members who deliberately ignore direct answers and twist the same question over and over again, causing anti-intellectual strife rather than contributing to the discussion.

Just my opinion, of course.
 
With all due respect, Hisalone. . .(and I’ve been told you’re female so I’ll address you as such unless you tell me otherwise)

Hey, brevity is the soul of wit and all, as the Bard pointed out. But unless you’re setting yourself up as a comedienne instead of as a person with some scriptural understanding and a definite belief you want to share, you’ll go beyond calling posts ‘gobbledegook’ to at least say WHY you think they’re gobbledegook.

Otherwise you come across as an ignorant Yahoo (cf. Mr. Swift’s tale) only here to make random volleys at the beliefs of others–something which the rules of the forums point out as a ‘no-no’.
 
SD_Catholic said:
It’s amazing you stick to 3 words in the Bible and thrive on it without acknowledging the fact that “all” cannot mean all in this verse since it has been pointed out to you many many times that there are several exceptions to the “all” in those 3 words… You admit Jesus is an exception… and I would think babies and the severly mentally handicapped you would also agree are an exception… so if you agree that these people could not commit sin than “all” cannot literally mean “all”… Even if you say Jesus is the only one… because by just reading those words all would include the fully human Jesus.

But let me guess… “all means all”… 30 more times without adressing these points… If you’re so certain than these should be easy to explain away.

SD
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Short term memory loss. Do you think that’s what it is. Because we do this time after time. And he still hasn’t answered one of my questions EVER. But he say’s he did? STML thats what it gotta be! Well we will see he is going to show me scripture where it says the Blessed Mother has sinned!
 
And also why she (not us) told us that Enoch and Elijah “were able to enter heaven because they were sanctified by their faith”.

Her very own words which she is attempting to say were the words of ‘Catholics’ in a desperate attempt not to have to admit her own error. . .
 
Tantum_ergo said:
And also why she (not us) told us that Enoch and Elijah “were able to enter heaven because they were sanctified by their faith”.

Her very own words which she is attempting to say were the words of ‘Catholics’ in a desperate attempt not to have to admit her own error. . .
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Well lets see if he or she comes back, I never have gotten one true answer. I can’t wait. But I bet mia again. ITs a pattern.
 
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