Against Mary - "Totus tuus, Mary"

[exiled]

Justasking4,
You never addressed the two Scripture quotes given to you. “All generations shall call me blessed”, and “Blessed art thou among women”.
Do you call her blessed among all the blessed women in the Bible? Among all women throughout history?
What is the point of the story of the Wedding Feast at Cana? What was God’s purpose for telling us that Mary interceded for the hosts? If this event was simply to begin Christ’s public ministry, there would be no need of telling us of Mary’s role in the story. What is the point of Mary in the story?
Jesus Christ would not be fully human if He did not take His flesh from His mother. If only He had been spared the stain of original sin, then she would not be His biological mother, but a surrogate, a petri dish.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Just, you are forgetting Revelation. The ideas of this mystical book have historically been considered to support the continuous apostolic teachings and to support Mary’s place in salvation history as has been Christian teaching since the beginning and is still taught by Catholics today.

It’s in there as well as in Sacred Tradition – the other ‘part’ of the deposit of Faith, as you must well know that Scripture itself never, never, EVER claims to contain ‘all’ knowledge but rather not only states that it does not contain all the teachings that Christ Himself spoke and did in the 3 years of his ministry (but which were passed down through oral tradition) but also the ‘truth’ that the Holy Spirit whom Christ sent would guide us to.

 

[zemi]

Ok, so I’ll try to play the Protestant part here for the sake of the discussion:

Explain to me, you Catholics, why should I go to Jesus through Mary?! What do you mean by that?! And why?!

 

[ElizabethPH]

Ok, so I’ll try to play the Protestant part here for the sake of the discussion:

Explain to me, you Catholics, why should I go to Jesus through Mary?! What do you mean by that?! And why?!

You don’t have to. But Mary always leads us to Jesus.

 

[zemi]

You don’t have to. But Mary always leads us to Jesus.

(Protesant belted up )

 

[justasking4]

zemi;2548851]It tells us that she is the mother of the “beloved disciple”. The name John is not mentioned there. Perhaps also the author’s intent?!

This passage is used by catholics to support that Mary is the mother of the church. The problem with using this passage is that it doesn’t say that at all. Rather Jesus is entrusting the care of His mother to John. If there was more to this i.e. she was the mother of the church, we would see such statements in letters of the NT. The fact is that we do not.

Something to think of but the Church has done the thinking for us already.

Huh? In Christ we are called to think. The church cannot do the thinking for you.

On the contrary - the Biblie never implies that what is not implied must not be applied as it is not implied

Huh???

 

[justasking4]

exiled;2549192]Justasking4,
You never addressed the two Scripture quotes given to you. “All generations shall call me blessed”, and “Blessed art thou among women”.
Do you call her blessed among all the blessed women in the Bible? Among all women throughout history?

Yes to both.

What is the point of the story of the Wedding Feast at Cana?

There are many things going on in this passage. Mary is aware that there is a shortage of wine and ask Jesus to do something about it. In John 2:11 he writes — This beginning of His signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory, and His disciples believed in Him.

What was God’s purpose for telling us that Mary interceded for the hosts?

See my previous response.

If this event was simply to begin Christ’s public ministry, there would be no need of telling us of Mary’s role in the story. What is the point of Mary in the story?

This passage is not about Mary but Christ. Verse 11 sums it up.

Jesus Christ would not be fully human if He did not take His flesh from His mother.

Agreed.

If only He had been spared the stain of original sin, then she would not be His biological mother, but a surrogate, a petri dish.

She was His biological mother. However, just because she was a sinner does not mean He was tainted in some way by her. We may not understand it how this is possible but it is not necessary to believe she was without sin.

 

[justasking4]

gamesport;2549024]I don’t see how you can make that claim.

Given the fact that

1. the Church is body of Christ, Mary of whom Jesus took flesh from being, his Mother,

1. The symbolic given of the Mother over to the beloved disciple, this disciple being the only one of the 12 at cross (other having been scattered by fear)

Are you aware that this particular thing is never mentioned again in the entire NT?

Those are at least 2 implications

The problem is that it does not follow.

 

[justasking4]

Tantum ergo;2549781]Just, you are forgetting Revelation. The ideas of this mystical book have historically been considered to support the continuous apostolic teachings and to support Mary’s place in salvation history as has been Christian teaching since the beginning and is still taught by Catholics today.

I don’t know what you mean by the “beginning” because there are many aspects of the marian doctrines that were unknown in the early centuries. There is no evidence of her assumption for centuries. This means it could not have been there from the beginning.

It’s in there as well as in Sacred Tradition – the other ‘part’ of the deposit of Faith, as you must well know that Scripture itself never, never, EVER claims to contain ‘all’ knowledge but rather not only states that it does not contain all the teachings that Christ Himself spoke and did in the 3 years of his ministry (but which were passed down through oral tradition) but also the ‘truth’ that the Holy Spirit whom Christ sent would guide us to.

The problem here is that when you use Sacred Tradition as a claim to know is that it can never be shown to be what it is. Take your example of the teachings of Christ that John mentions in John 20:30. Since the 4 gospels is all that we have on what Jesus taught and did, we don’t know what these other things Jesus did. No one does. If you want to claim it was passed down orallly, then what was it that is not recorded in the NT?

 

[justasking4]

Paul says ‘I preached to you the gospel which you recieved in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold fast, unless you believed in vain’ 1Cor15

These oral teaching which are in the Tradition which is the bible itself in which you wholly believe in. Comes to us from the apostles.

What does this have to do with Mary?

 

[zemi]

This would all be for another threads…

This passage is used by catholics to support that Mary is the mother of the church. The problem with using this passage is that it doesn’t say that at all. Rather Jesus is entrusting the care of His mother to John. If there was more to this i.e. she was the mother of the church, we would see such statements in letters of the NT. The fact is that we do not.

It seems to me you are just picking things you think God wanted to let us know and making yourself an arbitrary judge of this. So if God wanted us that we know e.g. what books we should use to compose the Bible, he would have told us, right?

Huh? In Christ we are called to think. The church cannot do the thinking for you.

Can you show me where that is in the Bible? In mine there is authority to teach given to the Church.

Huh???

You have nowhere in the Bible that what is not implicit cannot be taught (after being developed into a teaching). This is not mentioned even implicitly. That was the point

 

[zemi]

Justasking,

1. Mary was Jesus’ mother
2. God gave us commandent: “Honor your father and your mother”
3. Jesus would most certainly with the uttermost perfection keep all the commandments perfectly including the one stated above.
4. the word “honor” was/is in Hebrew “kabodah” which means “bestow glory” and is derived from Hebrew “kabod” which means weight, glory.
5. So Jesus honors his Father and obeys his command by bestowing unprecedented glory upon the one that he has chosen from all eternity to be his mother. Did it diminuish in any way his intimate relationship with his Father? No. Not at all.
6. Justasking, do you (try to) imitate Jesus also in this or are you a judge to yourself a pick things in which you want to imitate Jesus?

PS: Why is it so hard to accept that Mary could after all be your Mother as Jesus (implicitly) told it and the Church (explicitly) teaches it? Unless you adhere to the self-destructing and contradicting principle of having everything explicitly in the Bible…I don’t see any reason if you are open to think about it…

 

[terri_fortner]

The problem here is that when you use Sacred Tradition as a claim to know is that it can never be shown to be what it is. Take your example of the teachings of Christ that John mentions in John 20:30. Since the 4 gospels is all that we have on what Jesus taught and did, we don’t know what these other things Jesus did. No one does. If you want to claim it was passed down orallly, then what was it that is not recorded in the NT?

The problem here is thinking the bible fell out of the sky bound and written in every language. When in all actuality it was passed down through Sacred tradition, until a time it had to be written down and when the printing press was invented it was printed. All the manuscripts we have today are copies of copies that the CATHOLIC church has protected from theives and others who may not have wanted it say this or say that. The Catholic Church wrote the bible. Why would they include things that go against their traditions. Jesus told them to build a Church, not a Bible. The Bible was, and is just one of many tools that we are supposed to use to follow Christ.

As for the praying to Mary, I’ll honor my Father and my Mother, adn pray that everyone else feels the same convictions. Jesus didn’t really feel ready, so to speak, at the wedding, but he did it anyway because his mother asked. We accept that the body and flesh of Jesus was created with the soul purpose of bring Jesus, why not believe that Mary was was created to be the mother becaseu that was what the Father wanted. “I knew you before you were even formed in the womb.” HE knew Mary would be Jesus’ mother. Just like he knew I would be my children’s mother, and you would be the person you are.

Seeking Mary’s intercession is like asking someone who is “higher up” in your church to pry for you or a loved one. You ask because more prayers are better, and if I can get his Mother to seek on my behalf, then I am gonna try.

Was that off topic or what?

 

[zemi]

The problem here is that when you use Sacred Tradition as a claim to know is that it can never be shown to be what it is. Take your example of the teachings of Christ that John mentions in John 20:30. Since the 4 gospels is all that we have on what Jesus taught and did, we don’t know what these other things Jesus did. No one does. If you want to claim it was passed down orallly, then what was it that is not recorded in the NT?

1. “Theoretically”…do you think St. Ignatius of Antioch, a student of the Apostle John could have known something of the things in the Jn 20,30 passage?
2. “Theoretically”…do you think something of this can be also in his writings? (btw - there is no passage in the Bible that says he couldn’t write it)

 

[zemi]

Huh? In Christ we are called to think. The church cannot do the thinking for you.

Ok. Good point! So how long did the thinking process “in Christ” take you to come up with the canon of the Bible?

Just wondering.

 

[ElizabethPH]

What does this have to do with Mary?

That everything is not in the bible; That there is an oral teaching where from the earliest church Fathers comes our belief that Mary intercedes for us…she is the Holy Mother of God. Paul was speaking about what he “preaches” not about anything he has written; as in the bible…which you obviously believe everything must be in the bible.

She is my Mother; given to us by Jesus on the cross when he told John ‘behold your Mother’ whether you believe that to be false doesn’t it make it so.

 

[Singinbeauty]

She is my Mother; given to us by Jesus on the cross when he told John ‘behold your Mother’ whether you believe that to be false doesn’t it make it so.

I have heard this many times and one thing that keeps popping up at me is that IF Christ was giving Mary to the Christian nation as our Mother then why did He only give her over to John stating behold here is YOUR Mother and not address all of those who believe that were in attendance? I believe that Jesus was making sure that Mary was being taken care of after He had left this earth. As was the custom. Why else, when He appeared to the disciples after His resurrection, did He not make it clear that Mary was to be EVERYONE’S Mother?

I dunno. It just makes no sense to me…

 

[zemi]

I have heard this many times and one thing that keeps popping up at me is that IF Christ was giving Mary to the Christian nation as our Mother then why did He only give her over to John stating behold here is YOUR Mother and not address all of those who believe that were in attendance? I believe that Jesus was making sure that Mary was being taken care of after He had left this earth. As was the custom. Why else, when He appeared to the disciples after His resurrection, did He not make it clear that Mary was to be EVERYONE’S Mother?

I dunno. It just makes no sense to me…

That is a very good question, indeed, Singinbeauty. The response to your question is maybe here:

This Rock Article on “Why should Mary be our Mother?”

 

[love4mary]

I just don’t get it. If having a devotion to Mary and the Saints brings us closer to Jesus, why do some have such problems with this? In my humble opinion, anyone or anything that brings us closer to our Lord and Saviour is a good thing.

 

[zemi]

I just don’t get it. If having a devotion to Mary and the Saints brings us closer to Jesus, why do some have such problems with this? In my humble opinion, anyone or anything that brings us closer to our Lord and Saviour is a good thing.

Simply and nicely put, love4mary

I also had problems with some teachings of the RCC. Once I studied them and saw them properly explained I came to realize what a great sense does it all make. I think that’s also the cure for the anti/non-Catholicism of many anti/non-Catholics.