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DaveBj
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Sorry to self-refer, but the edit time had run out.
And that song, “Thank Heaven for Little Girls,” sung by Maurice Chevalier? Major EEWWWW!
Age gaps in dating/marriage - how far would you go/have gone?
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And that song, “Thank Heaven for Little Girls,” sung by Maurice Chevalier? Major EEWWWW!
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DaveBj
Guest
We don’t have HBO, so my familiarity with GoT is minimal. Back after I finished the Wheel of Time fantasy series and was casting around for another series to read, someone on these forums recommended the GoT books, so I read some reviews, and the mention of sex with [what would be in our society] underaged girls meant that the reviews were as far as I got. For the same reason, I’m glad that my wife chucked her historical romances a couple decades ago; I was amazed that their content was even allowed to be published.
But, we digress. Back to the main topic – age gaps in dating and marriage.
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Xantippe
Guest
I was about to link that.
It’s funny how societal mores have moved. I wonder when it started sounding creeeeeepy.
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DaveBj
Guest
I don’t know. I can remember hearing that song on the radio in the '50s. It didn’t bother me then, but heck, I didn’t even know what sex was at that age, much less the concept of “jailbait.” I just thought that the singer had a funny accent.
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pianistclare
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MJJean
Guest
Oh, ohhh, I can merge the topics!
My Uncle (remember, 19 years senior to my aunt) knows she reads a LOT of romance and fantasy. He actually said…I am not pulling any legs here…that reading those books gave girls “ideas”.
So, uhh, DaveBj…you actually read one of your wife’s graphic bodice rippers? I used to read a lot of historical and Urban Fantasy that was severely graphic. I always wondered what a husband would think if he read one. What did you think?
Nope. It’s creepy.I still don’t think it’s creepy. You guys are pervs.:bigyikes:
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pianistclare
Guest
Well, I teach little kids. I think little girls are wonderful. Thank heaven for little girls.Oh, ohhh, I can merge the topics!
My Uncle (remember, 19 years senior to my aunt) knows she reads a LOT of romance and fantasy. He actually said…I am not pulling any legs here…that reading those books gave girls “ideas”.
So, uhh, DaveBj…you actually read one of your wife’s graphic bodice rippers? I used to read a lot of historical and Urban Fantasy that was severely graphic. I always wondered what a husband would think if he read one. What did you think?
Nope. It’s creepy.
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ToeInTheWater
Guest
For those who don’t understand why *Thank Heaven for Little Girls *is creepy, it starts out like this:
Then the song goes on to say…
Also, as Maurice Chevalier is playing the part of Gaston’s uncle, a confirmed bachelor who is a notorious playboy himself, the context makes it sound like he had an eye on Gigi as a potential mistress for Gaston, way back from when she was only 5, 6, or 7 years old. This IS pretty creepy. Not even Gigi’s own grandmother actually saw her as a potential sexual commodity until she reached puberty, though that’s also really disturbing.
The creep factor gets even worse when you consider that the uncle DID have an affair with Gigi’s grandmother once, and as the duet he sings with her makes it clear that he’s a little senile and has forgotten the details of the relationship, it’s even a remote possibility that he’s actually Gigi’s grandfather! Yeah, a guy who thinks his own potential granddaughter, is a suitable mistress for his nephew, IS creepy.
On the other hand, I think that when the movie debuted in the 1950s, the whole idea of pedophiles slowly “grooming” potential victims wasn’t really publicly acknowledged. “Sex fiends” physically overpowering and assaulting their victims, sure. But I suspect that many young people abused by their elders back then without actual physical rape, were actually NOT seen as victims, but as equal participants in a consensual sexual relationship. I’ve heard horror stories of children reporting abuse to their parents and being blamed for somehow “seducing” the abuser. (This happens even now.)
I won’t quote the whole song considering copyright issues, but I got this version off Metrolyrics.
Then the song goes on to say…
While it’s not, technically, about a man who’s actually finds a little girl of 5, 6, or 7 attractive, or would consider actually doing anything sexual with her at that age, it does imply that the man singing it likes little girls primarily because of their potential to grow into women who ARE potential sexual partners.
Also, as Maurice Chevalier is playing the part of Gaston’s uncle, a confirmed bachelor who is a notorious playboy himself, the context makes it sound like he had an eye on Gigi as a potential mistress for Gaston, way back from when she was only 5, 6, or 7 years old. This IS pretty creepy. Not even Gigi’s own grandmother actually saw her as a potential sexual commodity until she reached puberty, though that’s also really disturbing.
The creep factor gets even worse when you consider that the uncle DID have an affair with Gigi’s grandmother once, and as the duet he sings with her makes it clear that he’s a little senile and has forgotten the details of the relationship, it’s even a remote possibility that he’s actually Gigi’s grandfather! Yeah, a guy who thinks his own potential granddaughter, is a suitable mistress for his nephew, IS creepy.
On the other hand, I think that when the movie debuted in the 1950s, the whole idea of pedophiles slowly “grooming” potential victims wasn’t really publicly acknowledged. “Sex fiends” physically overpowering and assaulting their victims, sure. But I suspect that many young people abused by their elders back then without actual physical rape, were actually NOT seen as victims, but as equal participants in a consensual sexual relationship. I’ve heard horror stories of children reporting abuse to their parents and being blamed for somehow “seducing” the abuser. (This happens even now.)
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styrgwillidar
Guest
To quote Tom Lehr from his song ‘Smut’ (inspired by the supreme court decision on pornography) off the comedy album - "That Was the Year that Was’:I still don’t think it’s creepy. You guys are pervs.
When correctly viewed
anything is lewd
I could tell you stories about Peter Pan
or the Wizard of Oz
(there’s a dirty old man)
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MJJean
Guest
Diana Palmer books. She’s a prolific modern romance writer and most of her heroines are in the 18-25 age range falling for heroes that are between 28-40. The usual for her is a young woman, virginal, who has been through some traumatic experience and/or is in current danger. Her hero is a much older man who is either an old family friend who has known her since she was a child or an employer. He’s rich or going to be rich soon and he’s her protector. They fall in love, some mention of age is made and then dismissed, they get married, and live happily ever after.
Richelle Meade (I think) Vampire Academy series. The heroine is 17 when she falls for and becomes intimate with the hero, who is her late 20-something instructor/mentor.
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DaveBj
Guest
Off-topic, but yes, in my previous life. Never mind what I thought!
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Zzyzx_Road
Guest
I look my age except that I have the body (and the energy) of a younger man. The relevant question is how old do women near my age look relative to me.
Now about those graphic bodice rippers: men take a lot of rebuke for porn viewing and it’s all deserved, you’ll get no argument from me about that. But I’ve read a couple of bodice rippers and it has always escaped me why they aren’t considered the female emotional equivalent. My mother and my sisters won’t read them for that reason.
Little girls are wonderful. But that song is creepy. So again, 18 vs 40’s, uh I’d question the maturity of both parties. 18 vs 26, not so bad. 26 vs 34, unremarkable. 26 vs 40, hrmm. 40 vs 55, again, unremarkable. Age gap making a difference is relative to how old they are.
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Sarcelle
Guest
Some bodice rippers, especially those written today can qualify as porn.
I guess the difference between men and women is that men consume their porn visually while women consume their porn via the written word.
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Xantippe
Guest
I haven’t read bodice rippers for the past 20+ years, but I think that morality aside, there is probably a distinction between how pornography and bodice rippers function within relationships.
For women, the bodice ripper has the potential to rev up a sleepy female libido and keep a sexual relationship going.
Meanwhile, when men have a big pornography habit, there’s a lot of potential for it to kill sexual intimacy within a couple.
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ToeInTheWater
Guest
So it IS about looks after all? You’re just not attracted to women who look older than you?
I am very curious, though, what will you do marry your “significantly younger” ideal wife and she winds up “aging badly”? Exactly how important is this to you? Would you vet all her close female relatives to make sure the likelihood of this is low?
But even if you do that, she could wind up suffering from some chronic illness, and many such women wind up looking older than her age. Also, such a wife would no longer be able to keep up with your active ballroom dancing schedule, either. So what would you do then? Trade her in for a younger, healthier model, and try to game the annulment system?
I’m assuming looks isn’t the only criterion upon which you choose potential mates, but you really seem hung up on finding a “compatible” wife based on issues that are fleeting and superficial and focused on what works for you NOW, as opposed to 5, 10, or 20 years from now. Even if you exclusively date women 10+ younger, and can “keep up” with them now, there’s no guarantee you won’t become disabled from a stroke, accident, or other illness. Would your wife be justified in trading YOU in because you no longer have the energy of a man closer to her age?
I think that life experience and maturity, also matters a lot. An 18 year old growing up in circumstances that forced him/her to mature quickly, perhaps work to support the family or help with rearing younger children, may indeed be a good match for a 26 year old. Someone the same age with helicopter parents who has had no real responsibilities, and assumes Mom and Dad will pay for everything and always clean up their messes, not as much.
And a 26 year old grad student who also hasn’t held down any significant job, is deep in debt, and still finds the “hook-up” culture appealing, might not actually be a good match, for, say, a 34 year old who’s already been married before and had the marriage end in death or divorce/annulment, already has school age children, etc.
ETA: Re bodice-rippers, I actually think they CAN hurt marriages. at since in many such stories, the hero either starts out measuring up to ridiculous ideals regarding emotional sensitivity, or is somehow magically transformed into such a man through the Power of True Love. The heroes are often portrayed as both (1) extremely skilled in bed and (2) extremely considerate and sacrificial, making sure the woman is always satisfied. Most real life men can NOT measure up to such standards, any more than a real life woman can measure up to those in porn consumed by men.
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Xantippe
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ToeInTheWater
Guest
Just to clarify, I wasn’t even thinking about actual marriage, I was thinking more about dating and thinking that I wouldn’t find a relationship between an 18 year old and a 26 year old to be automatically acceptable, that a mature 18 year old might be able to handle that, but an immature, childlike one wouldn’t. Also, most 18 year olds have yet to live on their own or hold down a real job – though unfortunately, these days many 26 year olds also fit that description.
I don’t think most 18 year olds, even the more “mature” ones, are ready for actual marriage. However, I also don’t subscribe to the idea that “there is no point to dating until you are ready to marry within a year”.
As for the bodice-ripper tangent, I think such books are even more explicit now than they were 20 years ago, when I actually remember checking some out and becoming physical aroused. I haven’t even read 50 Shades of Grey but I know many who have, and from what I understand, that’s pretty close to just straight out “porn without plot”, which makes sense since it started out as a Twilight fanfiction set in an “alternate universe” in which Bella is a naïve college student and Edward isn’t a vampire, but a rich playboy into S+M. And many fanfictions are notorious for being very sexually explicit.
And note that even in the original Twilight, which doesn’t include any sex until the last book and uses the “fade to black” method, Edward the 108 year old virgin is apparently an automatic whiz at sex from the very start of the honeymoon, which is NOT realistic at all.
Now, at least with written “porn” no actual sinful sex acts were required to create the “work”, but I really do think that many women minimize the possibility that it could affect them negatively, and I do think ZR had a point in calling them out for it.
And speaking of age gap marriages, I recall a very disturbing post on the TwilightMOMS website in which one of the posters stated that her own daughter wanted to marry an older man at age 18. Most of the other posters were essentially cheering the relationship on, apparently thinking “hey, it worked for Bella and Edward, right?” Most of these “moms” were at least in their late 20s or 30s, or even older. Not quite sinful, but disturbing to see how much they let a fictional work affect their perceptions of what was prudent.
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Xantippe
Guest
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Xantippe
Guest
Zzyzx Road,
There’s an issue I would encourage you to keep an eye out for, namely that an oddly high energy level can sometimes be a manifestation of a problem of some sort–ADHD, bipolar, etc.
There are perfectly lovely people that are ADHD or bipolar, but they both pose a lot of difficulties for marriage with regard to impulsivity and problems with judgment.
I can think of one person that I know that has both high energy and is very functional, but I would treat very high energy as a red flag to be investigated.
Also, come to think of it, mental illness is prone to pop out in the late teens/early 20s.
“The first episodes of schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and major depressive disorder tend to appear in the late teens and early 20s.”
nbcdfw.com/news/health/The_Real_World__Recognizing_Mental_Illness_in_Young_Adults.html
So, there could be substantial benefit to not exclusively dating women in the prime risk category for being about to have their first episode of mental illness.
There’s an issue I would encourage you to keep an eye out for, namely that an oddly high energy level can sometimes be a manifestation of a problem of some sort–ADHD, bipolar, etc.
There are perfectly lovely people that are ADHD or bipolar, but they both pose a lot of difficulties for marriage with regard to impulsivity and problems with judgment.
I can think of one person that I know that has both high energy and is very functional, but I would treat very high energy as a red flag to be investigated.
Also, come to think of it, mental illness is prone to pop out in the late teens/early 20s.
“The first episodes of schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and major depressive disorder tend to appear in the late teens and early 20s.”
nbcdfw.com/news/health/The_Real_World__Recognizing_Mental_Illness_in_Young_Adults.html
So, there could be substantial benefit to not exclusively dating women in the prime risk category for being about to have their first episode of mental illness.
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Rose71
Guest
Well, I’ve got another slant on the topic!I’m 43 and married to a man who is 8 years younger than me. When we first met, I had no idea of his age and he had no idea of mine. Nobody has ever mentioned the age gap (possibly because we actually look fairly close in age anyway) but for me, at first, it did make me wary but pretty soon, I realised that it just isn’t an issue.
It’s perfectly sensible to measure age in years because it’s straighforward and easily measurable but the reality is that people mature mentally and age physically at very different rates. I’m not comparing people to dogs here
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okay - maybe a bit!) but there are breeds that behave like pups until they are 2 or 3 years old and breeds that can start quite advanced training by 7 or 8 months old. Likewise, some breeds look old at about 5 or 6 and some are still jumping around like lunatics at 10+ years. Even within breeds and within lines, there are variances from the ‘average’. Factor in life experience too and my theory is that after the age of about, say (for argument’s sake) 30, actuial age in years becomes pretty irrelevant if the couple are genuinely compatible.I would never have believed in a million years, aged 16, 20, 30 or even 35 that I would marry a younger man, but when I met him, we just got on fantastically well; we have the same religious beliefs, we share the same core values, enjoy the same activities, have the same approach to domestic life and have also had to face some similar experiences in life that have shaped us.
I was late maturing mentally in many ways, because I was very much an academic and so stayed in education longer and he started work at 16, as joint manager of the family business, so you could say he was an adult at 16 and I was 23 when I got my first proper full time job (so that’s 7 years to start with)
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