Aggressive Online Recruiting From this group

[HomeschoolDad]

@HomeschoolDad Thank you so much for posting the PDF document from the Diocese of Colorado Springs! I just wrote to Bishop Sheridan’s executive assistant today and received an out-of-office reply; she will return Monday.

Glad I was able to help. The newspaper article was very even-handed and shed some valuable light on the situation.

@Irishmom2 you asked about their location. It also resembles a cult compound.

It’s a religious community in the country, on the outskirts of a mid-sized city. I don’t think it looks any different from your typical small Bible school, boarding school, or what have you. Cults don’t “look” this way or that. Many regard Scientology as a cult, yet they have facilities right out in the open, in Clearwater, Florida. (Ironic choice of a location — a central tenet of Scientology is “going clear”, achieving a certain state of mind, basically, if I’m understanding it right, getting rid of one’s mental baggage.)

 

[carmelitequotes]

I don’t think it looks any different from your typical small Bible school, boarding school, or what have you. Cults don’t “look” this way or that.

Thanks so much for your comment! I suppose that “cult” could be in the mind of the beholder. David Koresh’s compound was way out in the country but not as secluded as this compound. A family member in Colorado Springs who drove by there at my request said that their water bill must be incredible to keep those trees so green. It’s obvious why they need to avoid the fire hazard.

 

[NevermoreLenore]

They believe they are the only true faith. Prayers, trying to keep talking to my son are all we have right now.

I’m not sure how your conversations go, but I doubt arguing the truth will be wholly convincing, given his indoctrination. I think it would be good to make sure your conversations alway include that you love him and he always had a home with you, no matter what or when, he’ll always be welcomed.

As a mother, I have a physical ache in my chest reading this thread. I’m terribly sorry and will keep you and your son in my heart. If you’re able, I hope you can keep us updated so we know how to pray. Again, I’m so very sorry and from one mother to another, I send you much love.

 

[carmelitequotes]

do you know how to file an FBI IC3 report? Link here It is not too difficult. Carefully read the website, present your evidence, and the local FBI office will contact you by phone. It is their job to investigate, not yours. It sounds to me like you have valid evidence to present an internet crime report to IC3.

@Jfsteck Just #ICYMI where I mentioned you in my later reply to @HomeschoolDad… You are in my ray:t5:

Here’s what that great Doctor of the Church, St. John of the Cross said about not giving up prayer for a particular intention:

"If by chance you see"
This means: If by my good luck you so reach his presence that he sees and hears you. It is noteworthy that even though God has knowledge and understanding of all, and even sees the very thoughts of the soul, as Moses asserts (Dt. 31:21), it is said when he provides a remedy for us in our needs that he sees them, and when he answers our prayers that he hears them. Not all needs and petitions reach the point at which God, in hearing, grants them. They must wait until in his eyes they arrive at the suitable time, season, and number, and then it is said that he sees and hears them. This is evident in Exodus. After the 400 years in which the children of Israel had been afflicted by their slavery in Egypt, God declared to Moses: I have seen the affliction of my people and have come down to free them (Ex. 3:7-8), even though he had always seen it.
And St. Gabriel, too, told Zechariah not to fear, because God had heard his prayer and given him the son for whom he had prayed those many years, even though God had always heard that prayer (Lk. 1:13). Every soul should know that even though God does not answer its prayer immediately, he will not on that account fail to answer it at the opportune time if it does not become discouraged and give up its prayer. He is, as David remarks, a helper in opportune times and tribulations (Ps. 9:10, DRA). Spiritual Canticle, 2.4

 

[Alexandria2020]

A sacrament can be valid but illicit — it does what the sacrament is supposed to do, it “takes”, but it is done without the Church’s permission.

does the Church see protestant high church sacraments the same way? for example the Lutherans and Anglicans.

 

[Anesti33]

No, not even the Orthodox sacraments are considered illicit, because liceity presumes that the minister is within the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church, i.e., a baptized Catholic.

 

[Jfsteck]

When we discovered what was happening with our son we had discussions with the Diocese. Our son had not left yet and we felt sure they could help. They issued a legal “document” warning them against their slander of the diocese which they had done in an email to us we had shared with the assistant there. We issued a Cease and Desist from contacting our son and they ignored it and told our son it meant nothing. They were relentless in their pursuit all the while claiming it was our son who pursued them. Buying him a phone and a plane ticket was shocking. As if we didn’t exist as parents. I don’t like to condemn anyone but this was an experience I hope no one ever has to experience. Thank you for your reply and information. I don’t know much about the convent there.

 

[Jfsteck]

I’m not sure how your conversations go, but I doubt arguing the truth will be wholly convincing, given his indoctrination. I think it would be good to make sure your conversations alway include that you love him and he always had a home with you, no matter what or when, he’ll always be welcomed.

As a mother, I have a physical ache in my chest reading this thread. I’m terribly sorry and will keep you and your son in my heart. If you’re able, I hope you can keep us updated so we know how to pray. Again, I’m so very sorry and from one mother to another, I send you much love.

Yes we keep trying to tell him all of our family events and happenings. We are told to help him remember his family. We hear from him but it is very surface and limited. We believe they are trying to get him to cut us off completely. It has been as if he was removed … not a death of course… but as a mother it is one of the worst feelings. Praying for God to help him decide to leave and to stand up to them. We also pray no other naive and innocent young men will be caught up by their deception. Thank you!

 

[Jfsteck]

Thank you for all of your information and assistance and prayers. My intention in posting about this group is to enlighten and possibly alert people in case their child would be coerced into joining them. We do not live in Colorado and it has been very hard to have him so far away. I wish something could be done but prayers from so many in this forum are so powerful. We have to be patient and just keep communication open and look for resources and information whenever and wherever we can.

 

[carmelitequotes]

Thank you for all of your information and assistance and prayers.

@Jfsteck At your service! I pray that you will truly consider filing an IC3 complaint with the FBI. That group’s use of the internet to recruit or otherwise entice or entrap young men in the manner that you describe is so egregious that the FBI actually may be your ally in the cause to enlighten and alert people. Prayers!

 

[aroosi]

Thank you for all of your information and assistance and prayers. My intention in posting about this group is to enlighten and possibly alert people in case their child would be coerced into joining them.

Maybe you could also open your own page in internet so young people searching for this group could find also the relevant documents against it and your own experience. Other parents in the same situations may find you and contact you this way too.

 

[Jfsteck]

Wow never thought of that. I will research that thanks

 

[carmelitequotes]

Maybe you could also open your own page in internet so young people searching for this group could find also the relevant documents against it and your own experience. Other parents in the same situations may find you and contact you this way too.

@Jfsteck I’d like to help you get a leg up on that project. As the admin for thousands of Carmelites, wanna-be Carmelites, and friends of Carmel on Facebook, I’ve compiled as much documentation as I can find mentioned here, and more. I also presumed your permission to share excerpts from your comments in my documentation with our group, since this forum is accessible to the public. I will be happy to share all of my links, and every jot and tittle of the documentation with you in whatever format you prefer.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

A sacrament can be valid but illicit — it does what the sacrament is supposed to do, it “takes”, but it is done without the Church’s permission.

does the Church see protestant high church sacraments the same way? for example the Lutherans and Anglicans.

Generally not, at least the five sacraments that require a priest or bishop. Baptism may be administered validly (even if illicitly) by anybody — even an atheist — and in matrimony, the spouses administer the sacrament to each other.

I say “generally not” because, if an Anglican (or rarely, a Lutheran) priest or bishop had his orders through a valid bishop, as in the case of a Catholic priest who leaves the Church for Anglicanism or Lutheranism (or an Anglican/Lutheran priest/bishop who has his orders through valid schismatic sources, e.g., Duarte Costa, Old Catholics of Utrecht), those orders would remain with him. If I am understanding the scenario correctly, if he intended to do what the Catholic Church does — that’s an important consideration — he could validly celebrate the Eucharist (but see below), absolve from sins, administer confirmation, administer anointing, and if a bishop himself, ordain priests and consecrate other bishops.

I placed the caveat on “celebrate the Eucharist” because — and I’m not sure I’ve ever seen this brought up before — there might be a doubt as to whether the Anglican or Lutheran liturgies would count as “Masses”. They are superficially similar to the Catholic Mass, but they were not authorized by the Catholic Church, so I have to wonder if this would fall under the rubric of “consecration outside the eucharistic celebration”, which violates Canon 927:

It is absolutely forbidden, even in extreme urgent necessity, to consecrate one matter without the other or even both outside the eucharistic celebration. (Nefas est, urgente etiam extrema necessitate, alteram materiam sine altera, aut etiam utramque extra eucharisticam celebrationem, consecrare.)

“Nefas est” is as bad as a violation of canon law gets.

Canon 927 doesn’t touch upon whether such a consecration would be valid or invalid, and I’m not going to open up that can of worms.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

No, not even the Orthodox sacraments are considered illicit, because liceity presumes that the minister is within the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church, i.e., a baptized Catholic.

Are you saying that Orthodox sacraments are considered illicit by the Catholic Church?

In spirit, if not according to the absolute letter of the law, I would say that Catholic Church, as a practical matter, acknowledges the right of the Orthodox Churches — which are true apostolic Churches — to regulate their own sacraments.

I believe I said something similar a few months ago in these forums, but to suggest to the Orthodox that they need Rome’s permission to confer their sacraments licitly, would surely meet with a piquant and unforgettable response from any self-respecting Orthodox Christian.

 

[Alexandria2020]

and in matrimony, the spouses administer the sacrament to each other.

could you explain on this? sounds pretty cool. what exactly do you mean? you mean the sacrament of matrimony?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

and in matrimony, the spouses administer the sacrament to each other.

could you explain on this? sounds pretty cool. what exactly do you mean? you mean the sacrament of matrimony?

It’s just what I said — when they take the wedding vows, they administer the sacrament to one another. The priest is just a witness.

Curiously, in Eastern Christianity, if I am understanding this correctly, the priest confers the sacrament (“crowning”). I’m not well-versed enough in Eastern Christian theology to understand how the sacrament can be validly received in two seemingly radically different ways of conferring it.

 

[Alexandria2020]

Curiously, in Eastern Christianity, if I am understanding this correctly, the priest confers the sacrament (“crowning”).

that was a tradition in the Syro-Malabar Church. But it’s not so common now. However, as part of de-latinization, it’s getting some support. Few people have started doing crowning ceremonys in their wedding.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

Curiously, in Eastern Christianity, if I am understanding this correctly, the priest confers the sacrament (“crowning”).

that was a tradition in the Syro-Malabar Church. But it’s not so common now. However, as part of de-latinization, it’s getting some support. Few people have started doing crowning ceremonys in their wedding.

Yes, as far as I’m aware, it is the common form of matrimony in Eastern churches. I always think of the wedding scene in The Deer Hunter, but I can’t find a clip online.

 

[carmelitequotes]

Will this clip of the crowning ceremony from My Big Fat Greek Wedding suffice?