Agreeing on "Major Things"

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TheButler said:
My point is that whether wearing a jacket or not there is still the propensity to play the wrong notes but without the jacket it’s more enjoyable and rewarding for me and those listening… And I know that the Creator is also listening.

I hope that makes sense.
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Jesus equates the workings of the Spirit as blowing wind in John 3. And what happens to wind when you put it in a box ? What happens when you try to answer too many jot and titles (the Pharisees did)? What happens when you go from the one page of the Nicene Council Creed, to the pages to write all the Council of Trent decrees more than a thousand years later ?
 
MT1926 said:
He isn’t anti-Pharisee, He doesn’t say don’t follow their teachings He says don’t follow their actions
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Actually it is both doctrine and practice that they had wrong. Later the leaven is said to be their doctrine also.

"Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.’’ Matt 16:12
 
Rather, the very concept of bible as “sole rule” when our Lord taught no such thing. If bible as “sole rule” did not come from our Lord - and it most certainly did not - then from whence has it come? Two choices:

Men or the evil one.

It is good for us to recall here just who was first to twist scripture to suit his own ends.

Matthew 4:3-6
 
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Anything can and will be said. But, is it true? Rationalization is what we are good at. Church council drives the stake through the heart of men’s rationalizations by revealing and declaring doctrine.

I know you do not agree. That is your right and God established that right. In 500 years, no one has overcome the fact that Christ did not preach in 1500s Europe and did not write or hand us the New Testament. Neither did He empower Lather, Calvin, Zwingli, Smythe, Wycliffe or any other. They ran off the rails all by themselves.

The Church gave us the New Testament, but certain men chose for personal reasons not to trust the Church. They preferred to rip the bible from the Church and satisfy themselves with whatever meaning they personally derive from it. The Mormons did this. The Jehovah’s Witnesses did this. Every sect and lunatic fringe group has done just this. And yes, the reformers did exactly this.

All of these wildly diverging opinions…using the exact same bible. And no protestant group on earth can prove any of them wrong. It is opinion versus opinion and in the end, they are each orphans!

Yet, we know that Christ did not leave us orphans. He left us a Church.

We depart from it at our own risk.
 
TheButler said:
My point is that whether wearing a jacket or not there is still the propensity to play the wrong notes but without the jacket it’s more enjoyable and rewarding for me and those listening… And I know that the Creator is also listening.

I hope that makes sense.
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Yes it makes perfect sense. Your entire statement is about you. What God wants isn’t as important to you as how you feel. You want to be free to worship God the way you want. You feel God has no right to tell you what you should believe or how to worship him.

Your piano example hits the nail on the head, you want to play the notes you want the way you want wearing what you want.

The interesting thing about your example is we have a counter example that we can see in the world today. The ones who follow the rules, do what they are told by their instructors, and stick to what is being taught are the ones who end up never playing a wrong note while they are playing Carnegie Hall. Oh yeah, I forgot, they’re usually wearing a tuxedo coat as well.

God Bless
 
Excuse me, but this idea strikes me as surreal. This view of the bible is almost deified - and Catholics via the 10 Commandments are absolutely prohibited from anything approaching idolatry.

Seriously, you are ignoring 3/4 of Church history, masses of scripture and what the Apostles handed on to us directly from Christ.

Are you alleging that the Apostles were wrong because they disagree with 19th century American fundamentalists?

Surreal.

I know that bible alone has been hammered into your consciousness as the absolute truth, but the ‘bible alone emperor’…

…has no clothes.

What about BEFORE the bible?

Fatal disconnect and epic fail.
 
po18guy said:
know that bible alone has been hammered into your consciousness as the absolute truth,
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Perhaps, and to undue the hammering of Tradition into consciousness of the Church for too many centuries…Ironic because just about every doctrine/tradition is presented or can be with biblical basis
 
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Let’s back up and go forward.

New Testament. The canon was not settled for 400 years!

What about them?

Read the prologue to Luke Luke 1:1-4.

What did Theophilus learn from Luke’s Gospel?

Nothing! Zip. Zero. Nada.

Luke wrote it to confirm the Apostolic preaching.

Exactly the same with all of the Gospels. Mark wrote what Peter had preached for 33-37 years. Are you even that old? Were the Christians starving because they did not have the NIV? Were they taught wrong, because they did not wait for Luther to straighten the book out for them?

You seem to have an almost God-like view of the bible. I hope not, as that is worrisome. However, bible alone believers can be excused, as the bible is all that they have. Is it enough? Not if it is twisted by men to swift destruction - as the bible says.

Once again, where did Christ teach this?

Where?

The world has been waiting 500 years now for an answer.
 
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Paul - the bible alone HERO!!! states without error that YOU (yes, you) are to hold fast to the TRADITIONS whether oral or written. Do you spit in Paul’s face?

Where are those Apostolic Traditions that Paul knew were critical? Pray tell!

By rejectring the majority of what Paul and the twelve preached, how can you claim to know Paul? How can you claim to know the faith?

As with everything else, minimalism takes over. “Well, gee, I guess it’s enough…”

That makes you an orphan, and Christ did not leave us orphans!
 
My rule is the Church that Christ founded. 100% biblical. The Apostolic preaching. The Authority they were given by Christ and handed on, and yes of course, the scriptures. A three legged foundation with divine promise and divine authority.

Try to make anything stand on one leg. Luther tried and failed. Calvin tried and Failed. Zwingli tried and failed. Jimmy Swaggart tried and failed. Every single tele-huckster with perfect hair wearing a $10,000 Hugo Boss suit is trying and failing.

God loves you so much that He grants and defends your absolute freedom to follow these men.

Choose wisely.
 
po18guy said:
That makes you an orphan, and Christ did not leave us orphans!
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More than a few early forefathers taught that every believer has for sure, besides any earthly bishops, if not arrested or martyred, had Christ always as their Great Shepherd, not too mention being adopted by the Father, sealed and evidenced by the deposit of the Holy Ghost Himself in the believer, having many brothers and sisters, even mothers (per Christs words). Would almost seem sacriligious to call such a one “orphaned”, and perhaps a poor retort, even traditional to say today.
 
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po18guy said:
and defends your absolute freedom to follow these men.
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Interesting that we are criticized by saying we believe in invisible heirarchy, yet we follow visible men, like you (of course we all say we first follow Christ).
 
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I understand that you believe in bible alone. I simply cannot comprehend such a belief - especially to those who love the scriptures.

Once again, where did Christ teach bible alone?

The only answer; the only honest response is “He did not.”
 
I’m sorry. I have no idea what you are saying.

OK, so where in the parable of the lamp and the bushel basket and lampstand, do you extract “invisible” anything? The city on a hill is placed to be seen - not invisible!

I am 1000% confused, as the plain Aramaic that Christ spoke clearly commands the Apostles to be visible.

Yet, if you somehow see “invisble” in that, it only shows once again that you have free will.

My forehead hurts from the brick wall.

I’m out.

Ponder what is posted here, as your theology is simply new, revolutionary, innovative and 100% man-made. I do not say that.

Christ’s VISIBLE Church says that.
 
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