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fix
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Condoms will not change any behavior. What is the goal?
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Philip_P
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No, I’m not looking for a magic bullet, and my point is that neither should you be. Since the education is out there, but is not being listened to, obviously something is amiss. Neither Vatican pronouncements nor condom promotion have done much of anything to slow down the epidemic or change behavior. I don’t have an answer, but I wish the ideologues on both sides would admit that they don’t either. If we admit that what we’re doing isn’t working, maybe we stop this ridiculous culture war and work together to look for things that are.
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Richardols
Guest
Philip P:
It seems to me that people would rather hold fast to their solution to the problem rather than actually find a solution.
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Bella3502
Guest
Don’t assume that those who make wrong choices are not trying their hardest to make the right ones.
You are absolutely correct!!! I could not have said it better.
You are absolutely correct!!! I could not have said it better.
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otm
Guest
We don’t disagree. But those who sit in their ivory towers have little understanding, let alone sympathy for those in the trenches fighting this war.I am not quite sure who you are responding to but I can tell you that a friend of mines dad died of AIDS 2 years agoHe had sex with people he did not know after he KNEW he had the disease.He compared sexual intercourse to using the bathroom:nope: Just another bodily funtion:nope: He was not the only one who thought that way either.A condom is like putting a bandaid on an infected wound with no antibiotics,the infection will eventually kill you or your soul because the infection was ignored because the bandaid created the illusion that the infection was not there.
I do not advocate condom use; I agree that a) it is intrinsically wrong and b) that it sends at best a mixed message, and is way more likely to lead to continued and repeated behavior… But I do understand the frustration of those who are trying to stem this tide, knowing full well that some who engage in high risk behavior would not be infected if they used a condom.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. But I have a hard time reconciling some people’s attitudes about sin with what the Gospels teach. I don’t buy into the idea of counting the number of sins, almost as if 1 mortal sin was somehow not quite as bad as 2 mortal sins. If you have commited a mortal sin, you have cut yourself off from God; there is nothing left to cut off with the second sin. Counting sins is a mechanistic view of salvation, and is plain wrong.
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otm
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No, I am not arrogant. I am saying that the Aids workers are working in a country (take your pick) in which sexual behavior outside of marriage is wildly rampant among married men. I am saying that these AIDS workers are seeing the results - married women infected by their huisbands, who then infect their children at or prior to birth. And the AIDS workers are looking less at the behavior of the men, which they see they have little or no effect on, and are looking more at the innocent victims of the men’s behavior, and saying that if the slimeball is going to have sex outside of marriage, at least distributing condoms gives the wife, and the future children some chance of not contracting AIDS.
And I am further saying that orthodox Catholics who are horrified, disgusted, or self righteous about the comments and choices the AIDS workers are making or suggesting need to at least see what is really going on, and why there are a large number of people who are suggesting that the Church isn’t doing much to help by simply reiterating the rule.
Have you ever explained to a mother dying of AIDS that the
church is right and it is just her tough luck that her children are going to be orphans?
Have you ever explained to a mother, or sibiling who is watching a child die of AIDS that the Church is right in its position about condoms and gee, it’s really too bad about the kid but that’s life?
I agree that condoms are wrong intrinsically. I agree that it works to send the message that this behavior is somehow ok. But I haven’t found a good answer to that mother or child.
Have you?
And you call me arrogant?
I am not arrogant; I am heartbroken for the innocent who are dying every day. And I am not talking about a couple of hundred, or a few thousand, but literaly millions of innocent who will die because of this. And I can really understand why many feel that the Catholic church is giving a death sentance to the innocent.
The only answer I can give is that where abstinence and chastity have been vigorously taught, the AIDS rate has gone down significantly. It does work. But there are a lot of areas it is not working in. And there are more and more innocent people being drug down to a horrible death.
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miguel
Guest
Using a condom to avoid AIDS is like playing Russian roulette. Telling people to do that is just plain irresponsible. Teaching them the truth about abstinence before and fidelity in marriage is the best advice anyone can give. It’s not an “ivory tower” approach. It’s the simple, honest truth. Uganda has taken that approach and has turned the situation around compared to its condom-pushing neighbors. People are bright enough to do the right thing. All you have to do is respect them enough to tell them.
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otm
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Philip P:
The results elsewere are disheartening, and in the meanwhile, a hugh number of innocent lives are being lost. But there is no doubt that chastity can be taught, that people can and will change their behavior.
Actually, you are not correct. There are at lest two countries in Africa which have seen very significant reductions in the AIDS rate because they have started practicing chastity.
The results elsewere are disheartening, and in the meanwhile, a hugh number of innocent lives are being lost. But there is no doubt that chastity can be taught, that people can and will change their behavior.
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Lisa_N
Guest
Again, I think you are overstating the value of ‘promoting’ condoms. If they are only 80% effective at preventing pregnancy when properly used, they will clearly be less effective in stopping AIDS or other STDs. Further why does anyone think that the same men who ignore teachings against promiscuous sex and other risky behavior will USE condoms? Who will provide them? How will the women FORCE their husbands, boyfriends or clients to use condoms if they do not wish to do so? We have to be real here.
Loosening up the restrictions on condoms is not the panacea that some seem to believe. I do understand the ‘starfish’ concept, if it helps one, well that’s something. But is relaxing this standard on a vague hope that the condoms would actually be used, every time, and correctly even realistic? The only thing that will turn this tide is a complete change in attitude. I don’t see that coming 'round the bend anytimes soon.
As to pregnant women, my understanding is that babies can quite effectively be prevented from having the disease transmitted to them at birth with proper precautions. If these condom peddlers wanted to put some effort into getting these meds and procedures to Honduras that WOULD do something to save the innocent
Lisa N
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Swiss_Guard
Guest
I’m not sure what you mean by this statement. If you mean that we should deviate from Catholic moral teaching, I disagree with you. Truth has a name and that name is Jesus Christ.
If you mean we must find a way to present Catholic moral teaching in a way that people will understand it and act upon it, I couldn’t agree with you more. I used to do sidewalk counseling outside abortion clinics and I would listen to other counselors use the same language on every woman that would be going into the clinic. They used the arguments against abortion that best convinced them rather than try to adapt that message to the woman who is going in for the abortion.
The solution for AIDS is simple. Getting people to understand and apply the solution is difficult.
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Lisa4Catholics
Guest
Yes, why is that?Surely they are being taught that this is an evil thing to do
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fix
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Philip P:
The answer is that behavior needs to change. If you have an idea of how to get folks to start living as they should we all will listen. Your position seems to be that because people refuse to turn their lives away from sin, that the message is incorrect and we we need to change the message?
Perhaps the message is not being taught as it should? We hear about those who pine for condoms, but I have not heard how many are actually sharing the Gospel with these folks.
Ideologues? The Vatican speaking the truth is now an ideologue?
The answer is that behavior needs to change. If you have an idea of how to get folks to start living as they should we all will listen. Your position seems to be that because people refuse to turn their lives away from sin, that the message is incorrect and we we need to change the message?
Perhaps the message is not being taught as it should? We hear about those who pine for condoms, but I have not heard how many are actually sharing the Gospel with these folks.
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fix
Guest
I was implying you were saying we were arrogant for speaking the truth without compromise.
Slimeball? These people may not have ever heard the truth. They may only hear about latex sheaths.
Have they explained the “rule” or are they married to condoms as a panacea?
Would that change the moral code? Does it have to be presented in such a way that it minimizes charity?
Would I explain it like that? No. Would you stand before the throne of God and tell Him that he got that condom thing wrong and your idea of compassion trumps His? I reject your stating the choice as you have. It is not either give condoms or in a callous way tell a mother the Church is a big ole meany and She does not care about her life. Wink, wink the* pastoral* thing to do is pass out condoms.
Are condoms the answer? There is all manner of suffering in this world. Are we to compromise the truth and compromise souls for feelings? Can the truth in love not be comforting?
You misunderstood, I did not call you arrogant. See above.
I cannot not understand that thought. That type of thinking comes from poor understanding of the Church’s postion, propaganda from the left and little faith.
The problem is not that chastity is unreliable, but that humans sin. Your argument is with our fallen nature.
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miguel
Guest
Lisa N:
omsoul.com/item465.html
Of course this makes perfect sense. So why don’t people get it? The answer is that there is more going on than the obviously stupid policy of pushing condoms to prevent AIDS. Jaqueline Kasun wrote a book called The War on Population. I read it years ago. In it, she discusses the whole population control movement, the players, the organizations, their ideology, strategies, source of funding, etc. If I remember correctly, she suggested that these groups are deliberately promoting policies (homosexuality, condoms, etc) to spread disease as a way to reduce “overpopulation”.
omsoul.com/item465.html
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Philip_P
Guest
Exactly. And I think it goes for the far right as much as anyone else. Too often, the far right seems to think that simply restating a moral truth over and over again will magically transform everything. It’s not just the message, it’s the carrying out and teaching and implementing it. Making statements is insufficient. Playing Mr. Moral Absolute is insufficient. Stop pretending that it is.
Tell us more about Uganda.
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fix
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Philip P:
I really do not follow your argument. We all are for helping people to understand and live the faith.
What exactly is your complaint?
It is not restating the truth, but saying it at all. IMO, I think the truth has been hidden and compromised for a long time. Does that mean every single person will accept it? NO, but our obligation is to speak it, not force it on others.
I really do not follow your argument. We all are for helping people to understand and live the faith.
What exactly is your complaint?
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miguel
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fix
Guest
miguel said:
The article says they had teens sign a card and they spoke about biblical ideas of no sex outside of marriage. Just what the Catholics teach. The AIDS experts would say it is not enough.
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Lisa_N
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Philip P:
IOW what is the Church TEACHING about sexual matters or is that considered something that is to be avoided? My suspicion that a “Theology of the Body” type program is quite rare. Maybe instead of focusing on condom use, some more emphasis on real education and the benefits of following Catholic teachings would be in order?
Lisa N
You know I really wonder WHAT is being taught, if anything. Certainly our parishes rarely focus on sexual mores and somehow I doubt if it’s being taught in Honduras either. I suspect many Hondurans are ‘cultural’ Catholics, similar to secular Jews who are born into the faith but not educated in its teachings.
IOW what is the Church TEACHING about sexual matters or is that considered something that is to be avoided? My suspicion that a “Theology of the Body” type program is quite rare. Maybe instead of focusing on condom use, some more emphasis on real education and the benefits of following Catholic teachings would be in order?
Lisa N
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caroljm36
Guest
Exactly…and is it really AIDS anyway, or the usual cluster of poverty-related immuno deficiency-caused diseases that the third world countries have always had? Now globally redesignated as “HIV/AIDS” so we ignorant & trusting boobs in the US will shell out R&D money for it? I mean, nothing like convincing US and Europe that poor peoples far away have some terrible disease in order to raise money.
There was a similar story on Africa today from a wire service or big daily somewhere. This is a coordinated campaign, and I’m getting really, really suspicious about the whole thing. Funny how before the big problem was “overpopulation” and the cure: CONDOMS! and now the problem is AIDS and the cure: CONDOMS!
And not so many years ago we were finally informed that this is a pretty difficult disease for women to get in regular intercourse (after first being told that ANYONE could get it). What changed? Are men that bored with normal sex?? This is decadence.
What is happening there anyway? It sounds like they are living in a state of nature. Sexual revolution for men only. Are women and girls just basically being raped? Is there no control at all? No parents, no police? If this is the way it was in our past, no wonder women sought refuge in convents. I would too!
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