M
miguel
Guest
Of course the AIDS experts say that. If it ever gets out that keeping one’s zipper up is the solution, the AIDS experts will have to get a real job.
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O
otm
Guest
I do not disagree with you in essence. My question is not to the slimeball who is out haveing intercourse outside of marriage; it is to the innocent victims - wives and children - of that slimeball.
So how do you protect them, after you have told him not to engage in ceratin behaviors, and he does anyway?
You are looking at the issue from only one view point; that of the behavior of the male (by and large). What do you say to the wife?
L
Lisa_N
Guest
Again I ask, is it realistic that these same men who ignore their wives pleas for faithfulness and monogamy would happily use condoms? I hate to keep beating this drum but you have to understand that one of the issues in such patriarchal societies is that women do not have much of a choice in these matters.
Lisa N
F
fix
Guest
That is just it. The authentic solution is for people to act within the moral law. That will never be 100% achievable, but that does not mean we scrap it and take the ends justify the means approach so we all can feel good. Not to mention condoms are hardly the medical magic bullet we are told to believe.
M
miguel
Guest
Why should the truth be any different for the woman than it is for the man? I feel bad for women in this situation, as I know you do, but telling them to go play Russian roulette with a condom (assuming, as Lisa N keeps pointing out, the slimeball will even use one) is not the answer. How many times do married people have sex a year? Because if the slimeball has HIV, he’ll pass it to his wife at least 2 times out of 10. This is why AIDS is out of control in all these condom-pushing countries. People are trusting the “experts” and are being given a false sense of security. It’s criminal in my opinion.
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Tyler_Smedley
Guest
Agreed, they are made to sound better, and alot of times the people that push them alter the statistics to support thier opinions.
O
otm
Guest
I think you have missed part of what i wrote.
!) I have no problem accepting the position of the Church.
- I am aware that condoms are nowhere near 100% effective when used; and that use may lead back to non-use due to reduced sensation ( if not for a list of other reasons).
- Condom use can reduce the risk significantly of transmitting AIDS in any individual sexual act; not 100%, but definitely significantly.
- the number of times of intercourse in a year between husband and wife in these countries, given the sexual behavior of the husband having numerous sexual encounters outside of the marriage, is less than a husband who is not out “cruising”.
- the safety of the wife who has a husband who has been “cruising” approaches 0 (as in zero), if he does not use a condom when he gets back home. With a condom she has some form of protection.
What do you tell the wife who has a slimeball for a husband, before she has contracted AIDS from him? Well, I guess you tell her the Church says that while it knows he is extremely high risk for contacting AIDS, there is nothing she can do to protect herself, and she should get her will written, as she is going to die; and if she conceives after catching AIDS, her child is going to die too, because her country is so poor it cannot afford the medications to treat the child to prevent the transmission, and she sure as the day is long doesn’t have the funds.
I guess that is what you are going to tell her.
Now, tell me, can you go to Honduras, or Haiti, or any of the other countries suffering this scourge, and look her in the eye and tell her? and then the next woman, and the next? Oh, and her children, who will soon find themselves without either a mother or father?
Because if you can, they desperately need you there; the folks who have been doing this just can’t do it anymore They are burned out, they have gone to too many funerals; they are just plain shell-shocked. And as poor a solution as condoms are (and it is poor, morally bankrupt and guaranteed to prolong the issue), they have seen all the death they can take.
How much death have you seen?
Or do you just sit at home and pontificate, and cluck your tongue at all these totally misguided AIDS workers and chat with your friends about how stupid and immoral the AIDS workers are in ignoring what the Church so grandly teaches?
Abstinence works. It is the only thing that will truly work.
So the question is, how many innocent will die before the slimeballs figure it out? and what are you going to personally say to the innocent victims? The job is there, and they definitely could use some new blood; they have burned themselves out.
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Leeta
Guest
Folks,
Condoms have natural voids or pores which are many times bigger than the the AIDS virus. I have a copy of an article documenting this in the Journal of Rubber Chemistry. A group of sexologists years ago were polled at one of their own conventions with this question, if you knew your partner had AIDS would you have relations with that person using a condom? All said no way! So what is safe about using a condom?
I have a copy of a study done in Brazil. Condom use merely delayed the acquisition of the disease. The uninfected partners became infected even with condom use.
It is essentially a death sentence (not a parachute). The condom pushers don’t care that lots more people will die. According to them there are too many people.
Wives whose husbands have AIDS should not have marital relations, if they wish to live. Sin literally kills oneself and everyone around temporally and eternally. If the husband refuses to control himself, then the wife needs to be protected by being physically removed from his presence to a safe place, not by being given a condom! The bigger and more urgent problem is to get the husband to love his wife, instead of using her.
It really shows how the condom campaign is a shamelessly deadly exploitation of innocent people - especially women and children. The ultimate purpose of the condom campaign is to kill more people.
Suffering is a mystery, but we must face it, like Mother Teresa, and still do the right thing, in spite of it. She did and her sisters still care for AIDS victims. They don’t tell others to use condoms.
Condoms have natural voids or pores which are many times bigger than the the AIDS virus. I have a copy of an article documenting this in the Journal of Rubber Chemistry. A group of sexologists years ago were polled at one of their own conventions with this question, if you knew your partner had AIDS would you have relations with that person using a condom? All said no way! So what is safe about using a condom?
I have a copy of a study done in Brazil. Condom use merely delayed the acquisition of the disease. The uninfected partners became infected even with condom use.
It is essentially a death sentence (not a parachute). The condom pushers don’t care that lots more people will die. According to them there are too many people.
Wives whose husbands have AIDS should not have marital relations, if they wish to live. Sin literally kills oneself and everyone around temporally and eternally. If the husband refuses to control himself, then the wife needs to be protected by being physically removed from his presence to a safe place, not by being given a condom! The bigger and more urgent problem is to get the husband to love his wife, instead of using her.
It really shows how the condom campaign is a shamelessly deadly exploitation of innocent people - especially women and children. The ultimate purpose of the condom campaign is to kill more people.
Suffering is a mystery, but we must face it, like Mother Teresa, and still do the right thing, in spite of it. She did and her sisters still care for AIDS victims. They don’t tell others to use condoms.
T
TheGarg
Guest
Not only is it just a Man problem, since the lad’s girlfriend is the one who gave it to him, but he is dying as the result of his chosing his own fate.You can’t tell people not to have sex, or is it that people can choose not to listen:nope: That is so sad,the men cheating and bringing AIDS to their wives,women having to barter their bodies to liveWhat is the most deplorable is the defeatism that says give them condoms they will do it anyway:crying: Makes you wonder just how hard are they trying to discourage the behavior that transmits AIDS
Tyler I agree
I am sick at the thought of the whole article why oh why can’t the truth be told instead of a false and sinful attempt at the illusions that you do not have to suffer the consequences of sinful behavior:nope:
He chose to have premarital sex, now he will pay for it. I always find it funny how humans try to come up with solutions that somehow preserver their ability to do the wrong that got them into trouble in the first place.
I pray God’s mercy on them all.
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fix
Guest
I am sorry, but this is a bit disingenuous. Firstly, the AIDS workers may be burned out or they may be decieved or they may have a specific agenda that is the opposite of Church teaching.
Through out the ages there have been plagues and other terrible conditions that have killed many people. Some innocent and some guilty. Has the Church ever said to alter teachings or to water down the truth?
That there are pople in this culture who want to truth to be stated in love is a great thing. Part of the reason these AIDS workers are saying and doing what they are is because they may have grown up in a culture like ours that is relativistic and equates feelings with the truth.
What should we tell the families of these people? I think the sharing the message of Christ which is one of hope is a good place to start. What is your proposal?
L
Lisa_N
Guest
otm I generally find your posts very reasonable and rational but I wish you would address the questions that several have put forth. How on EARTH do you think giving women condoms will completely change that society and make these philandering men suddenly start considering their wives’ health when they have ignored it up to now?
Consider for example that you would simply have to provide condoms to EVERY woman in the country. Giving them condoms AFTER their husbands have been diagnosed with AIDS (which might be years after infection) is truly closing the barn door after the horse left. In effect if we accept that men will chase around, no woman is safe having unprotected sex with her husband because who KNOWS whether he is infected. The symptoms often appear months if not years later. At that point the woman may well be HIV positive herself.
How will giving women condoms make MEN use them? This is a serious problem in some countries with high AIDS rates such as Thailand. Men will NOT use them and in those countries, sadly, women have little if any power.
“Allowing” condoms not only compromises Church teachings but seems to be too little, too late. People are going to have to change their behavior patterns completely to eradicate AIDS and we are trying to stop a torn artery with a Band Aid by promoting condoms instead of monogamy.
Lisa N
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miguel
Guest
I didn’t miss that part.
You can’t fool mother nature. With respect to pregnancy, I would agree that condoms reduce the chance of it between people engaging in one night stands. (Not that I approve of one night stands or condoms.) But between people who have frequent sex with each other, like a husband and wife, condoms offer zero protection because as you say, they aren’t 100% effective. Sooner or later the odds of failure are going to bite you. And as Leeta points out, the microscopic structure of a condom (think of a stretchy screen) is not fine enough to prevent the HIV virus from getting through. Think of an inflated balloon. After a day or so, it is deflated. Air molecules leak out through the balloon’s structure.
otm, none of us have control over other people’s behavior. We can’t go live people’s lives for them. Jesus said I came that you would have life and have it more abundantly. He gave us the Church to provide moral guidance. Ignoring the Church’s moral guidance is ultimately self destructive. I don’t blame God or the Church or people who try to warn others of the potential consequences of bad behavior. That is real charity. It’s tragic that there are innocent victims and, as Christians, we are called to help them through our charitable acts. But it is certainly not charitable to tell them to go and use a condom. The only real answer for any of us is to live in accordance with the truth that sets us free.
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otm
Guest
Lisa N:
I would suggest that he might be more open to the idea of using a condom with his wife than he would of chastity.
I am not addressing the question of how to stop AIDS’ that is pretty obvious from the results of teaching abstinenece and chastity in Africa; it is reducing the infection rate - not holding even, but actually reducing the rate.
The question I am asking specifically is this: how many of you, who believe what the Church teaches about this are willing to go to one of those countries and talk with the innocent victims - women and children - And how long are you personally willing to stay at it? How many of them will you bury before you, too burn out? How many orphaned children, with absolutely no chance of being adopted, and no family to care fo them, are you willing to work with? And for how long?
And what is the likelyhood, if you do go there, and stay the course, that you, too might start to wonder, and to question the Church’s teaching? If you say “It will never happen (the questioning)”, then I would suggest that it is largely because you have never been in those trenches.
the point I am trying to get at is one no one seems to want to address. Yes, I know the advice to give condoms is wrong. But I think most on this thread have never had to face perhaps more than one or two deaths in a family, and most likely never from something that is preventable. People who are working with AIDS infected individuals are not there because they make a lot of money; they are not there because they have some grandiose idea of shaping society into a sexual free-for-all. They are there because they are committed to trying to stem the tide of a rapidly moving extremely serious health care issue. Those who sit on their royal theological thrones and look down the end of their noses at these people arguing with the Church have not only not walked a mile in their shoes, they haven’t even got off their duffs and done anything.
Tyler Smedley:
Lisa4Catholics:
Trelow:
miguel:
As best I can determine from the comments, most of you have never had to repeatedly put your faith in God on the line in the face of death. You have never had to deal one-on-one with the real tragedies in human life - and so often and repeatedly that you too start to grasp at straws.
Please note: I do not agree that giving out condoms is a solution.
But I have a whole lot more sympathy with, and understanding of how these AIDS workers have gotten themselves to the position of seriously questioning the Church’s position.
Have any of you done anything about the AIDS crisis (with the exception of Lisa4Catholic, who supports Shared Hope) at all? Instead of pontificating, I would suggest that you volunteer at your local AIDS hospice. Some of those AIDS workers whom you are so quick to judge could use a little relief; it is an act of mercy, which the Church strongly uf\rges us to do. and you might just learn a tad humility, as in “there but for the grace of God go I”.
I still haven’t seen anyone but fix attempt to answer my question, and I still don’t think my question was really understood.
I don’t think that it will completely change society. If it does make nay change, I would guess that it would be a move in the wrong direction; that is, suggesting the use of condoms to a philanderer is more likely to encourage his behavior, as he will hear it as a tacit approval of his behavior.
I would suggest that he might be more open to the idea of using a condom with his wife than he would of chastity.
I am not addressing the question of how to stop AIDS’ that is pretty obvious from the results of teaching abstinenece and chastity in Africa; it is reducing the infection rate - not holding even, but actually reducing the rate.
The question I am asking specifically is this: how many of you, who believe what the Church teaches about this are willing to go to one of those countries and talk with the innocent victims - women and children - And how long are you personally willing to stay at it? How many of them will you bury before you, too burn out? How many orphaned children, with absolutely no chance of being adopted, and no family to care fo them, are you willing to work with? And for how long?
And what is the likelyhood, if you do go there, and stay the course, that you, too might start to wonder, and to question the Church’s teaching? If you say “It will never happen (the questioning)”, then I would suggest that it is largely because you have never been in those trenches.
the point I am trying to get at is one no one seems to want to address. Yes, I know the advice to give condoms is wrong. But I think most on this thread have never had to face perhaps more than one or two deaths in a family, and most likely never from something that is preventable. People who are working with AIDS infected individuals are not there because they make a lot of money; they are not there because they have some grandiose idea of shaping society into a sexual free-for-all. They are there because they are committed to trying to stem the tide of a rapidly moving extremely serious health care issue. Those who sit on their royal theological thrones and look down the end of their noses at these people arguing with the Church have not only not walked a mile in their shoes, they haven’t even got off their duffs and done anything.
Tyler Smedley:
These quotes show how some of the rest of you are quick to question their intent, their entire moral outlook, their intelligence, their dedication, their political and/or theological postion, their good faith, and the very work they are trying to do - to get this disease controlled and the infection rate to drop significantly.
As best I can determine from the comments, most of you have never had to repeatedly put your faith in God on the line in the face of death. You have never had to deal one-on-one with the real tragedies in human life - and so often and repeatedly that you too start to grasp at straws.
Please note: I do not agree that giving out condoms is a solution.
But I have a whole lot more sympathy with, and understanding of how these AIDS workers have gotten themselves to the position of seriously questioning the Church’s position.
Have any of you done anything about the AIDS crisis (with the exception of Lisa4Catholic, who supports Shared Hope) at all? Instead of pontificating, I would suggest that you volunteer at your local AIDS hospice. Some of those AIDS workers whom you are so quick to judge could use a little relief; it is an act of mercy, which the Church strongly uf\rges us to do. and you might just learn a tad humility, as in “there but for the grace of God go I”.
I still haven’t seen anyone but fix attempt to answer my question, and I still don’t think my question was really understood.
L
Lisa_N
Guest
I don’t disagree that this work is very disheartening, but again I think that promoting condoms is a lose/lose idea. The church is not only going to compromise its teachings but is hardly going to be able to promote chastity or monogamy while handing out condoms through the back door. The two polar opposites just don’t work. Again the issue is that men are not likely to use condoms for every single sexual encounter and if they fail to use them once, it might be the one time they are infected. Further with the long period between infection and symptoms, likely men will infect their wives BEFORE they know they have AIDS. By then it might be too late. I read an interesting book written by an aid worker in Africa. AIDS went through the village because of the men who had multiple wives and spread the disease to wives who spread to children. They were Muslim FWIW, not Catholic. Condoms were not even on their radar screens.
I just don’t see any benefit for the Church getting involved in promoting condom use.
One thing that WILL help is testing all pregnant women. If they are HIV positive there are steps to take that will almost always prevent transmission to the baby. Has that been suggested?It seems like a much better procedure to involve the Catholic church in than handing out condoms. It helps to save the innocent and it does not compromise Church teachings.
Lisa N
I just don’t see any benefit for the Church getting involved in promoting condom use.
One thing that WILL help is testing all pregnant women. If they are HIV positive there are steps to take that will almost always prevent transmission to the baby. Has that been suggested?It seems like a much better procedure to involve the Catholic church in than handing out condoms. It helps to save the innocent and it does not compromise Church teachings.
Lisa N
M
miguel
Guest
otm, in defense of duff-sitting…it’s much better to do nothing than the wrong thing (like passing out condoms)…you’ll leave fewer orphans in your wake. Good intentions are no substitute for sound policy. But if you must know, I work with youth ministry. And part of that involves giving kids sound information so that, hopefully, they don’t end up in an AIDS hospice.
F
fix
Guest
We all have different callings. Does one have to actually go to a particular country to know objectively what is right and what is wrong?
Would Mother Teresa support condoms?
- Status