Aisha

[hamba2han]

Twist as you might there is no way to avoid the fact that Muhammed married a 9 year old.

You have just declared that something which Aisha (ra) reportedly said and which is written only in the hadeeth is a FACT.

Well, here is another thing that Aisha (ra) said according to the hadeeth:

She testified that there is no God to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of God.

Do you accept all that she said as fact?

 

[jack_hawkins]

You have just declared that something which Aisha (ra) reportedly said and which is written only in the hadeeth is a FACT.

Well, here is another thing that Aisha (ra) said according to the hadeeth:

She testified that there is no God to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad (pbuh) is the Messenger of God.

Do you accept all that she said as fact?

Wow yet another logical fallacy. The character of a part cannot be assumed to apply to other parts or the whole.
Another argument summarily dismissed!
Aisha also said things like “the women of believers suffer” or words to that effect

 

[cestusdei]

hamba,
I would accept that she said it, but I would not accept that it was the truth. I believe Muhammed actually existed and the hadith say that too, but that doesn’t mean I think he was a prophet. Here is my patented way to tell a false prophet:

God tells him that he can do things pertaining to morals, especially sex, that are wrong or forbidden for others.

In other words he gets an exception. Like Muhammed getting more wives or Joe Smith getting other mens wives. This is ALWAYS the sign of a false prophet.

 

[pro_universal]

That is not what Ayatollah Sistani said. He said that a child is considered an adult “when they reach nine lunar years”, not when they have reached “at least nine lunar years and have signs of puberty”. The Ayatollah gives no qualifiers there. Your post misrepresents what Ayatollah Sistani answered. According to the ayatollah (who has more authority than pro_universal on the subject), men may consider a 9-year-old child to be an adult. That is pedophilia.

Eden,

Please reread my post. The Ayatollah does not represent most Muslims (by definition-he is a Shia leader), and I posted for you a link to a fatwa from a well-known Sunni website.

The key to adulthood is puberty in Islamic law, with age minimums and maximums to bracket rulings. Signs of puberty before 9? Still not an adult. No signs of puberty by 15? You are considered an adult.

Given that Sistani’s website has one line answers and poor english generally, I doubt that this is even a complete answer. But in any case, you have for yourself the legal ruling that applies to the vast majority of the Muslims in the world, not a small divergent sect.

 

[cestusdei]

What muslim here has said that having sex with 9 year olds is wrong? I haven’t seen one yet.

 

[Ella]

What muslim here has said that having sex with 9 year olds is wrong? I haven’t seen one yet.

That’s really a good question.

I simply hope that people realize that 9 year old girls are being exploited today with the excuse that ‘muhammad did it so it must be moral.’

 

[Montalban]

The question is:
**
WHY** should you accept Muslim belief that Aisha (ra) was 9??

Which has been answered over and over again.

I can draw a comparison with Christian belief here.

Christians believe that Paul had a vision while on the road to Damascus.

There is no record of this anywhere in Islamic literature and so there is a great deal of ambivalence among Muslims on whether or not this event really did happen.

This is plain illogical. There doesn’t need to be any record in Islamic literature for you to address concepts of Christian belief, you don’t need to believe in them either. You can question Christian belief by what we believe.

It may be that he did indeed see this ‘vision’… but then again, it may well be that he did not, God knows best.

Muslims are not going to either argue or agree with Christians on whether or not Paul really did see what he said to have seen primarilly because Muslims just do not know whether he really saw it or not.

That’s not true. Moslems do this all the time.

The point here is, the choice of whether or not to believe Paul’s account is based entirely on FAITH, that’s all.

And do you need to believe in it to discuss what Chrisitans believe?

By comparison, the detractors of Islam have actually chosen to believe this account of Aisha’s age in the hadeeth even though absolutely nothing is mentioned about this in their own scriptures.

There wouldn’t be any mention of Aisha in Scriptures written 600 years before her, now would there?

Like I mentioned, it is a matter of FAITH whether or not you believe something which is written in scriptures and which no external source can verify.

Are Christians who have chosen to accept this particular hadith as being the truth saying that they do indeed have FAITH in the truthfulness of the hadeeth collection?

Chrisitans aren’t accepting the Hadith. We’re debating Moslems who accept the Hadith

 

[Montalban]

Eden,

Please reread my post. The Ayatollah does not represent most Muslims (by definition-he is a Shia leader), and I posted for you a link to a fatwa from a well-known Sunni website.

The key to adulthood is puberty in Islamic law, with age minimums and maximums to bracket rulings. Signs of puberty before 9? Still not an adult. No signs of puberty by 15? You are considered an adult.

Given that Sistani’s website has one line answers and poor english generally, I doubt that this is even a complete answer. But in any case, you have for yourself the legal ruling that applies to the vast majority of the Muslims in the world, not a small divergent sect.

Whilst the Ayatollah isn’t a speaker for all Islam there are other Moslem clerics who also support a young age, and you yourself do, although not quite as young.

 

[Montalban]

What muslim here has said that having sex with 9 year olds is wrong? I haven’t seen one yet.

Some I know have, but that’s because they’re unaware of Muhammed’s ‘example’. Those that do know usually try the ‘that was then, this is now’ argument that fails because Moslems believe his behaviour is an example for all time.

 

[jack_hawkins]

I asked a Muslim once would you let your 9 year old daughter get married to a 54 year old and he said no, but if it was Mohammed then of course yes! That shows the doublethink required.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Eden,

Please reread my post. The Ayatollah does not represent most Muslims (by definition-he is a Shia leader), and I posted for you a link to a fatwa from a well-known Sunni website.

The key to adulthood is puberty in Islamic law, with age minimums and maximums to bracket rulings. Signs of puberty before 9? Still not an adult. No signs of puberty by 15? You are considered an adult.

Given that Sistani’s website has one line answers and poor english generally, I doubt that this is even a complete answer. But in any case, you have for yourself the legal ruling that applies to the vast majority of the Muslims in the world, not a small divergent sect.

I have heard this argument many times before from Muslims on www.faithfreedom.org
It is a fact that menarche does not equal maturity. Having a period does not make you physically let alone emotionally ready for sex and marriage to a predatory old man. This also does not take into account the fact that many females have their first “period” as neonates either! Sadly many Muslims can only maintain these views because they are ignorant of physiology and human development. Another argument is that girls develop faster in warmer climates. Huh? They’re not fungi or something!?

 

[pro_universal]

I have heard this argument many times before from Muslims on www.faithfreedom.org
It is a fact that menarche does not equal maturity. Having a period does not make you physically let alone emotionally ready for sex and marriage to a predatory old man. This also does not take into account the fact that many females have their first “period” as neonates either! Sadly many Muslims can only maintain these views because they are ignorant of physiology and human development. Another argument is that girls develop faster in warmer climates. Huh? They’re not fungi or something!?

Well, that’s great that you have views about when adulthood begins. These are fine if you live in Birmingham, New York, etc etc…I agree with you there.

What I’m unwilling to do is condemn an entire religion because in the 7th century, in the middle of a desert, its founder married a young girl. If we went out today to find similar socio-economic conditions, we would find young marriage, and I seriously doubt anyone would call it outrageous that people marry as soon as they hit puberty in places where there are no doctors, scarce resources, and where death strikes early for a large number of people.

 

[jack_hawkins]

OK pro_universal, let’s take this logically
Yes marriage of young girls was acceptable in that culture. Fine. Mohammed was doing what was seen to be OK.
BUT
Mohammed is presented as the perfect example for mankind for all time, someone who heard from God and presented the truth.
So these two things are not compatible.
Am I going to judge Mohammed as a 7th century illiterate Bedouin caravan raider with narcissistic personality disorder and probable temporal lobe epilepsy? NO.
Am I going to judge Mohammed the seal of the prophets and perfect example for mankind for all time? YES you bet!

Being sexually attracted to a girl at 9 is being a paedophile no matter what the circumstances.

 

[pro_universal]

Jack,

I’m sorry, but you’re not getting it.

You acknowledge that early marriage was customary, and that puberty can hit at that age.

How on earth is post-pubescent marriage pedophilia??? I believe by definition it is not.

There is no society anywhere that exists in similar conditions, that does not practice young marriage. Christian, Jewish, or other.

 

[hamba2han]

Chrisitans aren’t accepting the Hadith. We’re debating Moslems who accept the Hadith

You say that Christians are not accepting the Hadith as the truth?

Well, from reading some of the posts of Christians on this thread, it could certainly have fooled me:

Aisha was 9 when Mohammed consummated his marriage to her, an act that Pro Universal has defended as moral right here in this forum.

But this Muhammed person lived a normal life and voluntarily decided to be a ped. Ticks me off to no end.

And I believe Muhammed died about the time she would have turned 18.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Jack,
I’m sorry, but you’re not getting it.

back at ya!

You acknowledge that early marriage was customary

YES

and that puberty can hit at that age

NO I didn’t. you also seem unaware of human development - are you a Mohammedan
girls that age enter puberty, but entering puberty and becoming an adult are two different things

How on earth is post-pubescent marriage pedophilia??? I believe by definition it is not.

you believe wrong! you are obfuscating by confusing the terminology

There is no society anywhere that exists in similar conditions, that does not practice young marriage. Christian, Jewish, or other.

not at that age - you’re wrong - and in nay case tu quoqes are not a valid basis for argument

 

[jack_hawkins]

You say that Christians are not accepting the Hadith as the truth?
Well, from reading some of the posts of Christians on this thread, it could certainly have fooled me:

You just don’t understand logical argument at all do you? Just because someone accepts a part does not entail accepting the whole.
How many times do you need to be told?

 

[hamba2han]

You just don’t understand logical argument at all do you? Just because someone accepts a part does not entail accepting the whole.
How many times do you need to be told?

Out of curiosity, where do Christians draw the line on what constitutes the truth and what constitutes falsehood where the Hadeeth are concerned?

 

[Montalban]

Well, that’s great that you have views about when adulthood begins. These are fine if you live in Birmingham, New York, etc etc…I agree with you there.

And you’ve yet to show why you think that adulthood is at menstruation plus three months.

What I’m unwilling to do is condemn an entire religion because in the 7th century, in the middle of a desert, its founder married a young girl.

What a spin! Moslems believe that he’s an example for all time. Even you agree that she’s a woman. How quickly you’ve forgotten your own argument.

If we went out today to find similar socio-economic conditions, we would find young marriage, and I seriously doubt anyone would call it outrageous that people marry as soon as they hit puberty in places where there are no doctors, scarce resources, and where death strikes early for a large number of people.

Pro_universal simply wishes to continue spamming the thread with this argument without showing why he thinks that a ‘girl’ who becomes pubescent is instantly an adult three months later, both in physical terms (remember she’s still developing and growing) and in emotional and mental terms.

 

[Montalban]

Out of curiosity, where do Christians draw the line on what constitutes the truth and what constitutes falsehood where the Hadeeth are concerned?

Out of curiosity why would you continue with a line of argument for days now that’s been addressed?