Aisha

[pro_universal]

back at ya!
YESNO I didn’t. you also seem unaware of human development - are you a Mohammedan
girls that age enter puberty, but entering puberty and becoming an adult are two different things

Again, “becoming an adult” is a psychological phenomenon that isn’t recognized by underdeveloped societies. There was no such thing as “adolescence” in ancient times, and it still doesn’t exist in places where there’s a good chance of dying at 30.

That is true regardless of religion, and it’s why the age of consent for marriage used to be (as in, until the mid 20th century) an average of 10 in the United States and 12 Britain.

you believe wrong! you are obfuscating by confusing the terminology
not at that age - you’re wrong - and in nay case tu quoqes are not a valid basis for argument

Tu quoqes? Huh? You’re not reading my claims if that’s what you’re thinking.

I’m not sure what it is about faithfreedom, but it seems like everyone who reads that site accuses everyone else of “tu quoque” whenever there’s an issue to be dealt with. Odd.

 

[Montalban]

You say that Christians are not accepting the Hadith as the truth?

I’ve said its irrelevant.

If you think that a Christian needs to put a proviso before every utterance along the lines “You believe this to be so, therefore I wish to argue that Aisha was nine” then you’re simply not grasping the context of a Christian arguing. It should be taken as read that a Christian, being a Christian doesn’t follow the Koran and Hadith. Therefore it’s superfluous to continually re-state “I’m arguing from what I understand you to believe”. This too is part of ‘logic’ of argument.

When I say “The Hadith say Aisha is 9 years old” or “Aisha is 9 years old” I expect you think that I’ve converted. Such is the strange, but amusing line of reasoning you seem to be following.

Next time you say “The Bible says Jesus died” I’ll know that you believe it to be so, simply by virtue of you saying this without a contextual “According to you Christians…”

Well, from reading some of the posts of Christians on this thread, it could certainly have fooled me

Judging by your grasp of logic, that’s not to difficult to imagine. You seem to think re-asking a question over and over again, even after it’s been answered is a way of making some point.

 

[Montalban]

Again, “becoming an adult” is a psychological phenomenon that isn’t recognized by underdeveloped societies. There was no such thing as “adolescence” in ancient times, and it still doesn’t exist in places where there’s a good chance of dying at 30.

Certainly you think that there’s no such phase of adolesence. Based as it is on your understanding of the Koran and Hadith, as a Moslem, that a girl, upon the BEGINNING of puberty instantly is an adult.

However you’re wrong anyway about such societies. Why not hook up with this course…
artsedge.kennedy-center.org/content/2270/
So you’ll be able to
“recognize and understand that many cultures use rituals and ceremonies to mark life cycle changes.”

Even in Catholicism there’s phased rituals from batpism, first Holy Communion, to confirmation and so on.

 

[Montalban]

You just don’t understand logical argument at all do you? Just because someone accepts a part does not entail accepting the whole.
How many times do you need to be told?

By his rational the German archaeologist Heinrich Schliemann must have believed in Zeus when he read Homer’s “Iliad” because although we now know it deals with an historical event - the Trojan War - there’s mention of gods intervening in the war. And he certainly did have an idea that the war might have been based on real events. By hamba2han’s logic Schliemann must first have converted to a paganism before endeavouring to find Troy. It’s simply a belief that one must believe it all, or none at all. The idea of trying to discern truths in a matter doesn’t come into it. I think that’s Islamic submission at work; take it all, no matter how silly some of it is.

 

[Montalban]

Again, “becoming an adult” is a psychological phenomenon that isn’t recognized by underdeveloped societies.

You’re arguing that because they didn’t recognise a phase of ‘puberty’
a) the Arabs were an under-developed society even after Islam
and
b) their god was unaware of any such thing - another time al-Lah seems to have little grasp of science

I thank you for your very frank attack on Islam’s credibility

The Romans must have been more developed than Islamic society because they didn’t bestow full adult rites the moment a boy started to shave, though this event itself was celebrated as part of the movement into adulthood. Perhaps the Roman gods are more clued than the Islamic god.

 

[Valke2]

Someone posted earlier that Mary may have been 12 when she married Joseph. If I understand correctly, she was already pregnant with Jesus at this time. So how can you criticize Islam’s prophet for such behavior and not question God’s judgment for inflicting pregnancy on Mary at such a young age?

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

May I suggest we get the Muslims to prove Aisha had reached puberty when she was nine. This seems to be a gross assumption on the part of the Muslims and if we don’t pull them up on this they will take it as a FACT.

So where’s the evidence Aisha had reached puberty when she was nine?

Thanks for your consideration,
Rodrigo

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Someone posted earlier that Mary may have been 12 when she married Joseph. If I understand correctly, she was already pregnant with Jesus at this time. So how can you criticize Islam’s prophet for such behavior and not question God’s judgment for inflicting pregnancy on Mary at such a young age?

Tu quoque.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Out of curiosity, where do Christians draw the line on what constitutes the truth and what constitutes falsehood where the Hadeeth are concerned?

how long is a piece of string?
Mohammedans generally cherry-pick the parts of the Hadiths they want to accept - agreed?
let’s address that then we can move on logically:thumbsup:

 

[pro_universal]

Tu quoque.

Okay, to end this once and for all:

Saying “You accept that this same behavior is good in this context, therefore, if you apply the same standard to another, you should still consider it good” is not a tu quoque.

Comparisons to Christianity are used here because every Catholic accepts that what God in the bible does is good. Hence, it is not a tu quoque to point to activities in Islamic traditions that are also in the bible, but rather, pointing out that there is a Christian basis for accepting these things as permissible.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Again, “becoming an adult” is a psychological phenomenon that isn’t recognized by underdeveloped societies. There was no such thing as “adolescence” in ancient times, and it still doesn’t exist in places where there’s a good chance of dying at 30.

That is true regardless of religion, and it’s why the age of consent for marriage used to be (as in, until the mid 20th century) an average of 10 in the United States and 12 Britain.

Tu quoqes? Huh? You’re not reading my claims if that’s what you’re thinking.

I’m not sure what it is about faithfreedom, but it seems like everyone who reads that site accuses everyone else of “tu quoque” whenever there’s an issue to be dealt with. Odd.

No, it’s not a “psychological phenomenon” (a classic piece of mumbo-jumbo if ever I heard it). As for your comment about the age of consent, such factual inaccuracies are alarming. Where are you from??? It is very relevant in the circumstances
As for tu quoques, if people use tu quoques then it is picked up on. Hopefully we can agree the rules of logical argument should be followed?
Therefore the fact that other societes might have done a thing is irrelevant?
We know that is textual evidence that Aisha was immature eg that reaching adulthood isn’t just a “psychological phenomenon” limited to devloped societies but an observable reality. She was playing with her dolls!!!

 

[jack_hawkins]

Okay, to end this once and for all:

Saying “You accept that this same behavior is good in this context, therefore, if you apply the same standard to another, you should still consider it good” is not a tu quoque.

Comparisons to Christianity are used here because every Catholic accepts that what God in the bible does is good. Hence, it is not a tu quoque to point to activities in Islamic traditions that are also in the bible, but rather, pointing out that there is a Christian basis for accepting these things as permissible.

The Bible does not comment on the age of Mary. Christianity does not have an equivalent of the Hadiths, since the Bible is a far better example of literature in the first place.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Okay, to end this once and for all:

Saying “You accept that this same behavior is good in this context, therefore, if you apply the same standard to another, you should still consider it good” is not a tu quoque.

Comparisons to Christianity are used here because every Catholic accepts that what God in the bible does is good. Hence, it is not a tu quoque to point to activities in Islamic traditions that are also in the bible, but rather, pointing out that there is a Christian basis for accepting these things as permissible.

Tu quoque.

The third type of ad hominem is known as “tu quoque” (Latin for “you too”). A tu quoque retort is basically a tacit concession on the part of the opponent committing this fallacy to the position submitted by the arguer, but with the attempt to discredit the arguer by asserting in some manner that the position argued applies to the arguer himself as well. The tu quoque ad hominem may also be called the “two wrongs make a right” fallacy.

geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1019/Fallacies.htm

 

[pro_universal]

Tu quoque.

The third type of ad hominem is known as “tu quoque” (Latin for “you too”). A tu quoque retort is basically a tacit concession on the part of the opponent committing this fallacy to the position submitted by the arguer, but with the attempt to discredit the arguer by asserting in some manner that the position argued applies to the arguer himself as well. The tu quoque ad hominem may also be called the “two wrongs make a right” fallacy.

geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1019/Fallacies.htm

Yeah, and this is obviously not “two wrongs make a right.”

“You accept this same behavior as right when it’s in the bible, so you should accept it as right when it’s in someone else’s book” is not “you too.”

It’s “hey, here’s a moral authority you agree with that sanctions the practice.”

Do you get the difference?

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

Someone posted earlier that Mary may have been 12 when she married Joseph. If I understand correctly, she was already pregnant with Jesus at this time. So how can you criticize Islam’s prophet for such behavior and not question God’s judgment for inflicting pregnancy on Mary at such a young age?

To my knowledge, no one really knows how old Mary was at the time she became pregnant with Christ. Muslims, on the other hand, claim their Hadith lists Aisha as nine years old at the time Muhammad “married” her.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

So Mary’s age is in the Bible? I thought her age was written in the ‘unreliable’ apocrypha.

 

[pro_universal]

No, it’s not a “psychological phenomenon” (a classic piece of mumbo-jumbo if ever I heard it).

Funny, then, that no one noticed that people couldn’t be adults until 18 until the 20th century.

As for your comment about the age of consent, such factual inaccuracies are alarming. Where are you from??? It is very relevant in the circumstances

I’m American. I also know that at least one state just passed its first age of consent for marriage law ever…last year.

As for tu quoques, if people use tu quoques then it is picked up on. Hopefully we can agree the rules of logical argument should be followed?

That’s not what it is. Repeat: No “you too” arguments here.

Therefore the fact that other societes might have done a thing is irrelevant?

It’s quite relevant. Pointing out that Catholic societies, for example, sanction this practice should be good evidence that a Catholic is not justified in bashing Islam on this point.

We know that is textual evidence that Aisha was immature eg that reaching adulthood isn’t just a “psychological phenomenon” limited to devloped societies but an observable reality. She was playing with her dolls!!!

Oh yeah, that’s solid proof.

Do I really live in a world this hypocritical? I guess Jesus was on to something levelling that charge against people all the time…

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Pointing out that Catholic societies, for example, sanction this practice should be good evidence that a Catholic is not justified in bashing Islam on this point.

Tu quoque.

 

[pro_universal]

Tu quoque.

Well that’s about as deep as your analysis of this can go I’m afraid. There’s no such claim being made here.

 

[kellie]

I don’t understand this tu quoque thing.

Is that like saying to someone “well that’s the pot calling the kettle black”?