Aisha

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kellie,
A tu quoque is a logical fallacy. It means you shouldn’t be using it in an argument. It’s not a valid reasoning technique.

Secondly, the comparison is wrong anyway. Mary had already reached puberty. Aisha didn’t. So instantly, the comparison is false - you cannot accuse God of being a pedophile since Mary had already reached puberty.

How do I know this? Because it is biologically impossible for a pre-pubertal girl to conceive a child so Valke2 was wrong to make that comparison in the first place.

Chau,
Rodrigo
 
pro_universal said:
Christistheway,

are you saying that Mary’s young age at impregnation and marriage was sinful???

Or just that it’s sinful if Muslims did this, but not if Christians did it?
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I’m saying I don’t believe she was 12 and I have asked for the sources that claim this. Maybe you can provide them?
 
kellie said:
Where does it still happen? That is, Muslims marry 9 year old girls. What countries?
Do these countries have civil laws about age of consent, and statutory rape?
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There is no age of consent in Saudi Arabia. The age of consent in Iran is 9, I believe. On obvious grounds. But you can “thigh” a girl before then. And we haven’t even mentioned the smooth young boys promised in Paradise yet…
 
I was also challenging Kellie’s idea that we must be perfect before we can condemn something we see as wrong, evil, sinful, etc. I was not commenting on the age of Mary.
 
pro_universal said:
Christistheway,

are you saying that Mary’s young age at impregnation and marriage was sinful???

Or just that it’s sinful if Muslims did this, but not if Christians did it?
Click to expand...
Unless I’m very much mistaken the standard definition of pedophilia is based on the girl’s pubertal status.

So if Mary had conceived she was no longer pre-pubertal and thus God cannot be a pedophile. Your argument is thus irrelevant to the discussion of Muhammad’s pedophilia with Aisha.

Secondly, what’s your source of Mary’s ‘young’ age?
 
Rodrigo_Bivar said:
kellie,
A tu quoque is a logical fallacy. It means you shouldn’t be using it in an argument. It’s not a valid reasoning technique.

Secondly, the comparison is wrong anyway. Mary had already reached puberty. Aisha didn’t. So instantly, the comparison is false - you cannot accuse God of being a pedophile since Mary had already reached puberty.

How do I know this? Because it is biologically impossible for a pre-pubertal girl to conceive a child (unless by a quirk of biology she is carrying a sibling - it’s been known to happen).

But for normal conception no pre-pubertal girl can conceive, so Valke2 was wrong to make that comparison in the first place.
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Paedophilia isn’t just an attraction to pre-pubescent girls.

Something else I just thought of.
If it was common in Mohammed’s time for men to marry young girls, what proof is there that he saw Aisha and was sexually attracted to her?
Couldn’t he have just married her as it was the thing to do, and for some reason he needed to be married? Such as to produce heirs.
Many people today still marry for convenience, sexual attraction isn’t the reason for all marriages.
 
If it was so common then you would find it easy to name just one pre-Islamic pagan who married a girl of a similar age to Aisha. Go ahead.

Muhammad had many wives of child-bearing age - he didn’t need to marry a pre-pubertal child who by definition cannot bear children. Aisha also never bore any children so your argument is false.
 
Rodrigo_Bivar said:
Unless I’m very much mistaken the standard definition of pedophilia is based on the girl’s pubertal status.

So if Mary had conceived she was no longer pre-pubertal and thus God cannot be a pedophile. Your argument is thus irrelevant to the discussion of Muhammad’s pedophilia with Aisha.

Secondly, what’s your source of Mary’s ‘young’ age?
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Your claim that Mary could not have been prepubescent because it is “biologically impossible” to carry a child if you haven’t gone through puberty is absurd in the extreme. Think for a second about “biological impossibilities” in this story before you answer.
 
ChristIsTheWay said:
I’m saying I don’t believe she was 12 and I have asked for the sources that claim this. Maybe you can provide them?
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Sure.

newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm
A year after his wife’s death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age, Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place.
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Think about it a moment, pro. If we accept Jesus’s conception was divine then there can be no pedophilia. However, if we assert a mortal explanation then Mary was clearly sexually mature.

Either way, there was no pedophilia with respect to Mary.

By the way, where’s your evidence that Aisha had already reached puberty when she was nine?

I’m only asking because we know Mary was sexually mature when she conceived Jesus.
 
OK so from that source Mary was 14-16 when she was impregnated - a world away from 9?
 
pro_universal said:
Sure.

newadvent.org/cathen/08504a.htm
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You should provide more of that quote:
It will not be without interest to recall here,unreliable though they are, the lengthy stories concerning St. Joseph’s marriage contained in the apocryphal writings. When forty years of age, Joseph married a woman called Melcha or Escha by some, Salome by others; they lived forty-nine years together and had six children, two daughters and four sons, the youngest of whom was James (the Less, “the Lord’s brother”). A year after his wife’s death, as the priests announced through Judea that they wished to find in the tribe of Juda a respectable man to espouse Mary, then twelve to fourteen years of age, Joseph, who was at the time ninety years old, went up to Jerusalem among the candidates; a miracle manifested the choice God had made of Joseph, and two years later the Annunciation took place.
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Unreliable sources. Hmm…not quite the same as the Hadiths, now is it? And as pointed out, this would make Mary about 14-16 at the time she became pregnant. Not the same as an old man having sex with a nine year old. But nice try.
 
Agreed, Jack. I amuses me the desperation of the Muslims in trying to excuse their prophet’s pedophilia with a pre-pubertal nine year old kid by comparison with a sexually mature 14-16 year old woman.

Let us re-check the definition of pedophilia for the benefit of the Muslims and Valke2.

American Psychiatrist Association DSM-IV-TR
Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia
1.Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).

2.The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.

3.The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old.
 
She’s not Aisha, though. We do know girls can reach puberty between the age of 4 to 20. The fact that a girl can reach puberty when she is 9 is no evidence that Aisha did. They are two different people.

So please provide the evidence that Aisha, not some other person, reached puberty when she was nine.

Oh, by the way, the world record youngest mother is a five year old from Peru named Lina Medina (strange name - coincidence?).
snopes.com/pregnant/medina.asp

But that does not mean Aisha had reached puberty when she was 5. It only means that Lina Medina had reached puberty by the time she was five.

Get the picture?
 
hamba2han said:
Here is a picture of a 9-year old wife and mother holding her new-born baby:
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…which has no relevance to deciding if having sex with a 9 year old is morally acceptable at all
On the one hand we have people swearing blind that Aisha wasn’t 9, and on the other hand we have the good Muslims who say it’s perfectly OK.
 
Rodrigo_Bivar said:
So please provide the evidence that Aisha, not some other person, reached puberty when she was nine.
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Like I have previously mentioned, many Muslims, although not all, accept the truth of the hadith regarding the marriage of Aisha (ra) based on FAITH alone, nothing else.

There is just no reason at all that I can think of why Muslims would care to provide evidence of this hadith to anyone who does not share their FAITH in the truth of the hadeeth, none whatsoever,
 
hamba2han wrote:
Like I have previously mentioned, many Muslims, although not all, accept the truth of the hadith regarding the marriage of Aisha (ra) based on FAITH alone, nothing else.

There is just no reason at all that I can think of why Muslims would care to provide evidence of this hadith to anyone who does not share their FAITH in the truth of the hadeeth, none whatsoever,

Rodrigo replies:
That is what historical evidence is for that period. Historical narratives are the bedrock of our understanding of ancient history.

The reason why Muslims can never provide the evidence that Aisha had reached puberty when she was nine, DESPITE MAKING ASSERTIONS/ALLUSIONS THAT SHE DID, is because the evidence does not exist.

On the contrary, the evidence suggests the opposite - that she was a young IMMATURE little girl when she was 13 or 14 years old - according to the sahih Bukhari and Muslim hadiths.

faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=397822#397822

So on balance of probability Aisha had not reached puberty when she was nine due to admission of the Muslim historians/historical narrators. In the old days, Muslims never felt ashamed that their prophet was a pedophile and so had no reason to hide that fact. It is only in modern times that Muslims have become ashamed due to the infiltration of Western sensibilities and sense of morality. In some parts of the Muslim world they still don’t care and are unashamed.
 
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