Aisha

[ChristIsTheWay]

Like I have previously mentioned, many Muslims, although not all, accept the truth of the hadith regarding the marriage of Aisha (ra) based on FAITH alone, nothing else.

There is just no reason at all that I can think of why Muslims would care to provide evidence of this hadith to anyone who does not share their FAITH in the truth of the hadeeth, none whatsoever,

Then why are you here, contributing to this thread?

 

[jack_hawkins]

Like I have previously mentioned, many Muslims, although not all, accept the truth of the hadith regarding the marriage of Aisha (ra) based on FAITH alone, nothing else.

There is just no reason at all that I can think of why Muslims would care to provide evidence of this hadith to anyone who does not share their FAITH in the truth of the hadeeth, none whatsoever,

HAA HAA!
What a wonderful response!
Going off in a cyber-sulk in other words…
Mohammed’s child abuse is just one of many unsavoury episodes in his life.
Robert Spencer’s “The Truth about Muhammad: Founder of the World’s Most Intolerant Religion” is an excellent potted summary of Mo’s life.

 

[Ella]

Gallery of Child Brides in Afghanistan.

Apparently child brides are sold to old men for money in Afghanistan.

 

[Valke2]

Mary’s age is not recorded in the Bible. However even if she was 12, 9 years old is not the same as 12 years old. We are talking about 9 year old girls. If you want to start a thread about 12 year old girls, feel free to do so.

I’m sure you are not implying that marrying 12 year old girls is permissible in our society. However, it seems acceptable in biblical times. It is also my understanding that Joseph is believed to have been much older – in his fifties. I know this isn’t set forth in your bible, but the fact is that Mary’s situation on paper doesn’t seem very different from Aisha’s. It is hypocritical to criticize the religion of Islam based on the marriage of their last prophet, if you are not going to critcize christianity for God’s use of a pre-teen to concieive Jesus.

 

[Valke2]

Tu quoque.

Assuming my argument is Tu quoque, it is still valid. I am not saying it is permissible to marry a 9 year old. I’m saying that if you are going to throw out the baby with the bathwater, then every religion is going to be missing a lot of babies.

THe age of Aisha seems to be a favorite topice for people who desire to bash Islam. I see it all the time, here and elsewhere. And yet, no one has a problem with Jesus being born to a 12 year old? I think under these circumstances, a little “Tu quoquo” is appropriate.

 

[Valke2]

Another thing is that Joseph is not held as a model for humanity unlike Muhammad - so it’s wrong to compare an ordinary person with someone who claimed to be the prophet of God. Different standards apply because models for humanity should display higher morals than everyone else. If not, what’s the point?

Well, that’s not entirely true. Is not a saint a model for us to follow? ARe there any saints who are not role models?

[/QUOTE]

 

[jack_hawkins]

but the fact is that Mary’s situation on paper doesn’t seem very different from Aisha’s

HUH? Where on earth do you get that idea? Have you been reading a different thread? Since when was Mary pre-teenage when she conceived? The apocryphal source given certainly doesn’t say that, does it? Why use the term pre-teen except to blur the distinctions deliberately between a 6 year old and a 12 year old? Clue: one is exactly half the age of the other. Age at consummation of Aisha 8 by Western calendra. Mary was at least 14 according to that apocryphal source.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

I’m sure you are not implying that marrying 12 year old girls is permissible in our society. However, it seems acceptable in biblical times. It is also my understanding that Joseph is believed to have been much older – in his fifties. I know this isn’t set forth in your bible, but the fact is that Mary’s situation on paper doesn’t seem very different from Aisha’s. It is hypocritical to criticize the religion of Islam based on the marriage of their last prophet, if you are not going to critcize christianity for God’s use of a pre-teen to concieive Jesus.

There is no proof Mary was 12 at the time she became pregnant with Jesus. That estimate is based on an unreliable source that is not viewed as canon by Catholics or other Christians. Furthermore, those who quote that unreliable source apparently can’t read, because it states she only became betrothed at 12-14, and pregnant at 14-16. Try to find a reliable, accepted source for her age (as we have with Aisha’s) and then we can talk about your claim that it is “hypocritical to criticize the religion of Islam based on the marriage of their last prophet, if you are not going to critcize christianity for God’s use of a pre-teen to concieive Jesus.”

 

[cestusdei]

Let’s cut to the chase and put it all on line:

I am willing to say that it is wrong today to marry and/or have sex with 9 year old girls.

Any muslim willing to join me?

 

[Valke2]

There is no proof Mary was 12 at the time she became pregnant with Jesus. That estimate is based on an unreliable source that is not viewed as canon by Catholics or other Christians. Furthermore, those who quote that unreliable source apparently can’t read, because it states she only became betrothed at 12-14, and pregnant at 14-16. Try to find a reliable, accepted source for her age (as we have with Aisha’s) and then we can talk about your claim that it is “hypocritical to criticize the religion of Islam based on the marriage of their last prophet, if you are not going to critcize christianity for God’s use of a pre-teen to concieive Jesus.”

My comment about her being twelve was based on comments made on other threads. Those comments were probably based on this, which I got from the Catholic Encyclopedia: “Jewish maidens were considered marriageable at the age of twelve years and six months, though the actual age of the bride varied with circumstances.”

So 12-13 would probably be the earliest she would have conceived Jesus, with a later age of 14 also being likely, from what I have read.

9 is younger than 12 and a half. But I think we can agree that both ages are way to young based on today’s ethics. As is 14. Even if Mary was 12 1/2, would it detract you from your faith? Would it be viewed as an attack on Christianity? I don’t think so.

 

[Angelos]

My comment about her being twelve was based on comments made on other threads. Those comments were probably based on this, which I got from the Catholic Encyclopedia: “Jewish maidens were considered marriageable at the age of twelve years and six months, though the actual age of the bride varied with circumstances.”

So 12-13 would probably be the earliest she would have conceived Jesus, with a later age of 14 also being likely, from what I have read.

9 is younger than 12 and a half. But I think we can agree that both ages are way to young based on today’s ethics. As is 14. Even if Mary was 12 1/2, would it detract you from your faith? Would it be viewed as an attack on Christianity? I don’t think so.

Some Christians supposedly believe that it was God who allowed Mary to conceive Jesus at her 12 or 14 whilst all Muslims believe that it was Allah who allowed Mohammed to marry Aisha when she was only 9. Mary’s marriage functioned as the means of her protection from the charges of adultery, and Mohammed’s marriage with Aisha functioned as the means of …?

Angelos N.

 

[cestusdei]

We don’t know how old Mary was, but we do know Aisha was 9. So will anyone join me in saying that in today’s world 9 is to young for marriage and sex? Anyone?

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

My comment about her being twelve was based on comments made on other threads.

Why base your comments on hearsay?

Those comments were probably based on this, which I got from the Catholic Encyclopedia: “Jewish maidens were considered marriageable at the age of twelve years and six months, though the actual age of the bride varied with circumstances.”

So?

So 12-13 would probably be the earliest she would have conceived Jesus, with a later age of 14 also being likely, from what I have read.

She could have been older, as well. No one knows.

9 is younger than 12 and a half. But I think we can agree that both ages are way to young based on today’s ethics. As is 14. Even if Mary was 12 1/2, would it detract you from your faith? Would it be viewed as an attack on Christianity? I don’t think so.

I do not believe Mary was 12 1/2 and will not consider it a possibility, even for the sake of discussion, unless someone provides a reliable source that supports this.

We don’t know how old Mary was, but we do know Aisha was 9. So will anyone join me in saying that in today’s world 9 is to young for marriage and sex? Anyone?

I will. Nine is too young for marriage and sex.

 

[jonfan]

I’m sure you are not implying that marrying 12 year old girls is permissible in our society. However, it seems acceptable in biblical times. It is also my understanding that Joseph is believed to have been much older – in his fifties. I know this isn’t set forth in your bible, but the fact is that Mary’s situation on paper doesn’t seem very different from Aisha’s. It is hypocritical to criticize the religion of Islam based on the marriage of their last prophet, if you are not going to critcize christianity for God’s use of a pre-teen to concieive Jesus.

Hmm. Joseph and Mary never had sexual relations.

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Valke2,
A logical fallacy is an invalid argument - by definition.

Also, the Quran does mention the virgin pregnancy of Mary.

"And mention in the Book, Maryam *, when she withdrew from her family to a place facing east. She placed a screen from them; then We sent to her our angel (Jibrael, or Gabriel), and he appeared before her in the form of a man in full human form. She said: ‘I seek refuge with The Most Beneficent [God] from you, if you do fear Him.’

(The angel) said: ‘I am only a Messenger from your Lord, (to announce) to you the gift of a righteous son.’

**She said: ‘How can I have a son, when no man has touched me, nor am I unchaste?’ **

He (the angel) said: ‘So (it will be), your Lord said: ‘That is easy for Me: And to appoint him as a sign to mankind and a mercy from Us (from God)’, and it is a matter (already) decreed (by God).’ " (Quran 19:16-21)

So even the Muslims do not consider the annunciation a pedophilic issue as no physical sexual activity was involved - which is a condition of pedophilia - by definition.*

 

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

Muslim sources like to claim Mary was 12 but apparently they don’t even read the apocrypha. The time between her ‘marriage’, some say betrothal, and the annunciation is 2 years, which makes her at least 14-16 years old.

It is irrelevant that other Jewish girls could be married when they are/were 12 and a half years old. None of them had the annunciation 2 years later. In the intervening period between the ‘marriage’ and the annunciation Mary was staying with her parents and sexual relations between her and anyone else is not recorded and is generally considered impossible. However, even if we were to take a mortal explanation Mary was already at least 14 and sexually mature.

So a 14-16 year old sexually mature young woman is a very different proposition than a 9 year old pre-pubertal girl. I hope everyone sees this.

 

[sanctamaria17]

Teen marriage was common, but it was not pedophilia. First, pedophilia involves pre-pubescent children. Teen years usually mean that a person is at least undergoing puberty if not already complete with it. Also, in the Middle Ages, most marriages were between teens and other teens or young adults. Therefore, a sixteen year old boy would marry a fourteen year old girl. It’s by no means the same as a forty year old marrying a nine year old. Not to mention that people were considered adults at younger ages (early to mid-teens) because of a short life span. Also, teens were more prepared to take on adult responsibilities back then than we are today. I do NOT advocate child marriage. I believe we should help these people improve their quality of life (whether by sending money, going on missions, etc.) and teach them about dignity and such, and children wouldn’t have to be married.

It sickens and saddens me to think that people would do such a things to children. I have young cousins and I babysit, so I am constantly around children. If anyone tried to harm them in my presence, I’d use everything I learned in kickboxing on them.

 

[cestusdei]

So for not one muslim has agreed to the proposition that 9 years old is to young for marriage and sex. That speaks volumes. The rest of this is just a smokescreen to cover the fact that they see nothing wrong with it. Don’t be fooled.

 

[Montalban]

Someone posted earlier that Mary may have been 12 when she married Joseph. If I understand correctly, she was already pregnant with Jesus at this time. So how can you criticize Islam’s prophet for such behavior and not question God’s judgment for inflicting pregnancy on Mary at such a young age?

That would be assuming that what that ‘someone’ posted was accurate.

The rest of your assumptions fall down because of that

 

[Montalban]

Are you implying that if someone assaults a 12 year old, you will not be as outraged, since “12 is not 9”?

If not, I can’t see what possible substance there is in your assertion “12 is not 9”

Certainly if I hear that a 99 year old is mugged I am more outraged than if I hear a 23 year old martial arts expert is mugged. However not that in both cases I’m still outraged. Both are still wrong.

Sorry you didn’t even pick up on that in your own question!