M
Melchior
Guest
I disagree with you somewhat. In Scripture wine is actually a sign and symbol of blessing. It is a good gift. It is beyond neutral. That does not mean we must drink of course but even if we don’t it is still good.
- Status
M
malachi_a_serva
Guest
Thanks Mel, a few questions then if I may.
Why does the Bible contradict itsefl? Don’t drink wine in God’s house - Drink wine in God’s house…
I was told as well that yes indeed fermentation does begin immediately - but that it immediately “spoils” as well. So there is a finite moment it can be drunk and that the process to keep it from spoiling wasn’t invented until just the last 100 years or so…just looking for comments.
mY STUDIES INDICATE WINE IS REFERRED TO IN 2 STATES - I am sure you all heard it before - wine “unfermented” and wime “fermented”. I also read somewhere that a doctor indicated red wine good for the stomach is true - but that the ingrediants that assist actually come from the grape juice - not the alcohol part. So drinking grape juice would benefit the same.
Pouring on a wine - yes the fermented stuff. But it doesn’t say to drink it there.
Just fruther comments and thanks these have all been good.
L
LilyM
Guest
Not true at all. The chemical properties of the grape juice will always, in nature, change almost immediately such that it VERY quickly becomes no longer grape juice. It depends on what flora (yeasts and other microorganisms) are present whether it simply spoils, becomes wine or becomes vinegar. No contradiction.
The benefits to the stomach are only ONE of the numerous health properties of wine - it has benefits for the heart and blood pressure and even, in moderation, is something of an antidepressant and aids sleep. Grape juice lacks most of these other benefits.
Jews never offered unclean things to God. They never sacrificed pigs or any other unclean animal to him, for example. So if they offered wine you can be sure it was ALSO a kosher drink for themselves to partake of.
M
malachi_a_serva
Guest
Hi LilyM - thanks for the response.
What are your thoughts on the apparent contradiction. Word of God says don’t drink - Jesus drinks and other verses say drink.
M
malachi_a_serva
Guest
Not sure I follow - where does “do not drink” mean do not get drunk, am I missing something?How does suggesting that you don’t go to Temple drunk equate with total abstinence?
Where does it say that?
Well they’re not supposed to
They’re not supposed to eat pork either are you suggesting that we adher to that too?
Fortunately Christians aren’t Muslims.
Nonsense. Kāma, one of four ends of man, specifically encourages the enjoyment of the pleasures of life
The Hindu approach to alcohol is varied
Some monastic orders take vows of abstinence from alcohol while some Hindu Tantric groups use alcohol in a sacred way, either as an offering to the deity or as taken individually during certain special rituals.
The Buddha broke with Hinduism in part when he decided to give up the Kāma
The 5th precept calls for the avoidance of intoxicants that cause heedlessness
That of course is up to interpretation
Some say that this allows consumption in moderation
Fortunately Christians aren’t Buddhist either.
2 billion actually
You mean some sort of plan like suggesting that Christians adhere to Muslim or Buddhist rules?
It puts an end to it with a resounding YES they should.
Holy and clean - God’s temple
Unholu and unclean - alcohol - I see the corelation right in that verse. It is telling us to seperate the two because of the opposing principles… no?
L
LilyM
Guest
It was a very specific ordinance relating only to the priests and only at particular times, it would appear. Not a general prohibition on alcohol, which as I said was used in the celebration of Passover so clearly wasn’t GENERALLY unholy or unacceptable in every situation.
Don’t get hung up on these OT provisions. Christ did away with most of the book of Leviticus for starters - the food restrictions specifically in Peter’s vision, the prohibition on drink when He commanded His apostles to drink.
M
malachi_a_serva
Guest
Could you explain the wine skin bursting to me please - I do not understand that.
As well; I have been told that the greek word “good” in “kept the good wine till last” is the same greek word as in John when scripture referrs to the “good shepard”. And that the greek word mean pure, unblemished, uncorrupted…
uncorrupted being opposite to fermentation. Thoughts.
As well, why would the bread HAVE TO BE unleavened (uncorrupted - no yeast) and then we consume corrupted (fermented) wine? That I cannot grasp. Thoughts?
M
malachi_a_serva
Guest
Good point. So the Passover Meal consisted and now consists of alcoholic wine?
Another angle - what about the “alcohol” being nithing near as strong as our alcoholic drink/wine?
p.s. how do I get into Australia to work?
I will convert if need bekidding
so far
D
DanteAlighieri
Guest
Malachi,
You have to remember that the instructions God gave to Moses and the Israelites were intended to separate them from the pagans – to give them a cultural and religious identity distinct from those of the pagan cultures and religions surrounding them. Also, the legalism of the Law in general was necessary to keep the Israelites holy.
Christ fulfilled the spirit of the Law while condemning those who were too legalistic. Furthermore, the Father Himself gave Moses the instructions for the Passover feast, and they included the drinking of wine. Clearly, God is not condemning alcohol if He desires it to be used in the most solemn celebration the Israelites had yet known – or in the most solemn celebration that Christians know.
There is only a contradiction between the verse you quote (Leviticus 10:9-10) if you want there to be; obviously, the verse you quote is not saying that alchohol is unholy, but that the Jews were not allowed to drink it before entering the Tent, and I believe by extension the Temple later on. Those structures no longer exist, by the way.
When we say our bodies are “temples”, we are not saying they are “THE Temple”, but rather that the Holy Spirit dwells in us, and that we are created in God’s image. We are not saying we are Tabernacles, which we and the Jews would recognize as saying we are the actual dwelling place in which God can be found.
Peace,
Dante
You have to remember that the instructions God gave to Moses and the Israelites were intended to separate them from the pagans – to give them a cultural and religious identity distinct from those of the pagan cultures and religions surrounding them. Also, the legalism of the Law in general was necessary to keep the Israelites holy.
Christ fulfilled the spirit of the Law while condemning those who were too legalistic. Furthermore, the Father Himself gave Moses the instructions for the Passover feast, and they included the drinking of wine. Clearly, God is not condemning alcohol if He desires it to be used in the most solemn celebration the Israelites had yet known – or in the most solemn celebration that Christians know.
There is only a contradiction between the verse you quote (Leviticus 10:9-10) if you want there to be; obviously, the verse you quote is not saying that alchohol is unholy, but that the Jews were not allowed to drink it before entering the Tent, and I believe by extension the Temple later on. Those structures no longer exist, by the way.
When we say our bodies are “temples”, we are not saying they are “THE Temple”, but rather that the Holy Spirit dwells in us, and that we are created in God’s image. We are not saying we are Tabernacles, which we and the Jews would recognize as saying we are the actual dwelling place in which God can be found.
Peace,
Dante
O
Orionthehunter
Guest
This is the beauty of why Christ came. He gave us real life example as well as words (easy to misunderstand). Look at His Word and His example and you come to understand the principle of moderation. Eating isn’t a sin but Gluttony is. Sacramental sex isn’t a sin but Lust is.
Furthermore, in context, it is about lifestyle. Gluttony isn’t about eating too much at Thanksgiving but making it a god or disproportionate focus. Same with alcohol.
Finally, it is about having a pure heart (or striving to have one). There are people who can or choose to live very stoic and austere lives. For some, they take Pride in it in a way that it becomes their god or way to feel “superior” to others. And in this Pride, they then believe they can try to make all in their own image. This is why Christ had to condemn those who focused on legalistic interpretation to the detriment of a holistic conversion of heart.
As Catholics, we don’t see Life in Christ as a drudgery where we have to grind out our lives in austere discipleship like the Confessional Reformation Church (and similar denominations) of Boenhoffer. If the Church focuses Life in Christ in a list of prohibitions and do not’s, it will have the perception of Life in Christ as a system of “do nots” as opposed to a response in Love. Who wants to follow a list of “do nots”? How can we be effective evangalists if all those not living in Christ see us as “separated” and “boring”?
Finally, while we are not to be “of this world”, we are to live in it fully in fellowship with all. Like it or not (I suspect you don’t), alcohol has been a tradition of social gatherings since Abraham at least. Christ’s acknowledgement of it at Cana is powerful message that it isn’t inherently bad and it is good to be where the people are. If all Christians lived in abstinance from alcohol and places where it is consumed, we will not have the opportunity to be an example of Life in Christ. The accusation which Christ bore that He lived among drinkers and consumed with them is an example this is where some of us need to be.
M
malachi_a_serva
Guest
A quick search on the internet says the wine at the passover meal was unfermented.
"So in the second Passover and each year thereafter, they used the cup, and they used wine in the cup. But the wine was unfermented. No leaven was to be used in anything on the Passover table, because leaven spoke of sin. Since leaven was used in fermenting wine, the wine had to be unfermented. Therefore, the cup of wine took the place of the blood of the lamb sprinkled on the door post. The cup took on a symbolic meaning referring to the work of our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. Jesus said to two of His disciples in Matthew 20:22, “…are you able to drink from the cup that I shall drink from…?” Then in Matthew 26:39, Jesus said, “…O my Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from me, nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”
angelfire.com/mt/tabor/passover.html
I will keep searching.
"So in the second Passover and each year thereafter, they used the cup, and they used wine in the cup. But the wine was unfermented. No leaven was to be used in anything on the Passover table, because leaven spoke of sin. Since leaven was used in fermenting wine, the wine had to be unfermented. Therefore, the cup of wine took the place of the blood of the lamb sprinkled on the door post. The cup took on a symbolic meaning referring to the work of our Lord Jesus Christ on the cross. Jesus said to two of His disciples in Matthew 20:22, “…are you able to drink from the cup that I shall drink from…?” Then in Matthew 26:39, Jesus said, “…O my Father, if it be possible let this cup pass from me, nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”
angelfire.com/mt/tabor/passover.html
I will keep searching.
M
malachi_a_serva
Guest
Some good points I will have to ponder. Question…so “drunkards” that do not get into heaven are people who live a drunkly life … as opposed to the odd person getting drunk the odd time?
i.e…you or I might “get drunk” but no one would refer to us as drunkards…yet some of the down and out on skid row (just for reference sake) would be refererred to as drunkards because of their lifestyle and habit. Is that correct.
I see what you mean about “pride”…
I often wonder though…all social outings have alcohol. How many people wouldn’t feel comfortable there or whatever if they didn’t drink? Just bothers me - alcohol is more like an anty anxiety that anything else…thoughts?
Thanks for the wonderful comments.
M
malachi_a_serva
Guest
Passover: Monday, April 2,
to Tuesday, April 10, 2007
Passover
The Jewish Festival of Freedom and Redemption
The History of the Holiday
Passover (Pesach, in Hebrew) is the first of the three harvest festivals in the Jewish calendar. It takes place in the month of Nisan, the first month in the Jewish calendar. The other two holidays are Shavuot, which takes place 50 days after the first day of Passover, and Sukkot, which follows four days after Yom Kippur in the fall. On these three festivals, adult male Israelites were expected to make a pilgrimage to the Temple in Jerusalem to bring offerings to God in thanks for the fruitfulness of the land (Deuteronomy 16:16–17). Since most pilgrims walked, these three festivals are referred to as the Shalosh Regalim (literally “three feet” festivals).
Pesach was originally an agricultural festival that took place at about the time of the barley harvest in Israel. The Torah, however, shifts the emphasis of this holiday to the Jewish exodus from Egypt. It is this historical focus that has dominated the observance of Passover for well over two thousand years.
Passover has several different names in the Torah. The name Hag HaAviv, “the spring festival,” refers to the holiday’s agricultural roots. The term Pesach refers to the paschal offering on the fourteenth day of Nisan. The lamb was eaten on the first night of the holiday, which today is the night of the first seder. The term Hag HaMatzot, “the matzah festival,” refers to the entire holiday during which leavened bread is not eaten.
Observance of Passover
The laws regarding what may and may not be eaten during Passover are very detailed. Ashkenazic Jews, those from Eastern Europe, have different food traditions than Sephardic Jews, those from Spain, Portugal, and the Middle East. All Jews refrain from eating foods made of the leavened flour of five grains: wheat, barley, spelt, rye, and oats. In addition, Ashkenazic Jews do not eat rice, millet, corn, or legumes, and there is a concern about eating any type of food that swells when cooked in water, like green beans.
In Israel, Passover is a seven-day holiday, as is mandated in the Torah. On the first and last days, no work is done. Outside the Land of Israel, Passover is an eight-day holiday. Adding a day to the festivals outside of Israel is a long-standing tradition that began before the development of a fixed calendar. After the Jewish calendar had been mathematically determined, Diaspora communities were reluctant to give up their extra day of celebration. The first two days and the last two days of Passover are days of rest in which no work is done. The five intermediate days are days of celebration.
The Passover seder, a home-based celebration, is celebrated outside of Israel on the first two nights of the holiday. The word seder means order. The seder consists of fourteen separate rituals and the normal festival candle lighting. Among these rituals are the telling of the Israelites deliverance from bondage in Egypt, the discussion of the various symbolic items on the seder plate, the eating of a festival meal, and the blessing after the meal. The guidebook for the seder is the Haggadah — a book that contains all the rituals, prayers, and songs used in the seder.
The primary theme of Passover today is the liberation of the Israelites from slavery in Egypt through God’s agency. During the seder, four glasses of wine are drunk. These four cups are related to four phrases from the Torah (Exodus 6:6–7) in which God promises to redeem the Israelites.
On every seder table there is is a symbolic fifth cup of wine called the Cup for Elijah.” There is a teaching that the Prophet Elijah will answer Jewish legal questions that the ancient rabbis could not resolve. One of these questions was whether we drink four or five cups of wine or grape juice at the seder. We hope that Elijah will visit us on the night of the seder. If that happens, he will tell us whether we should drink four or five cups. Elijah will also be able to drink from the cup that is set aside for him.
jewishappleseed.org/apple/passover.htm
I think I am going to visit a synogogue today to find out. Are their different practices? If so - then that doesn’t help.
to Tuesday, April 10, 2007
Passover
The Jewish Festival of Freedom and Redemption
The History of the Holiday
Passover (Pesach, in Hebrew) is the first of the three harvest festivals in the Jewish calendar. It takes place in the month of Nisan, the first month in the Jewish calendar. The other two holidays are Shavuot, which takes place 50 days after the first day of Passover, and Sukkot, which follows four days after Yom Kippur in the fall. On these three festivals, adult male Israelites were expected to make a pilgrimage to the Temple in Jerusalem to bring offerings to God in thanks for the fruitfulness of the land (Deuteronomy 16:16–17). Since most pilgrims walked, these three festivals are referred to as the Shalosh Regalim (literally “three feet” festivals).
Pesach was originally an agricultural festival that took place at about the time of the barley harvest in Israel. The Torah, however, shifts the emphasis of this holiday to the Jewish exodus from Egypt. It is this historical focus that has dominated the observance of Passover for well over two thousand years.
Passover has several different names in the Torah. The name Hag HaAviv, “the spring festival,” refers to the holiday’s agricultural roots. The term Pesach refers to the paschal offering on the fourteenth day of Nisan. The lamb was eaten on the first night of the holiday, which today is the night of the first seder. The term Hag HaMatzot, “the matzah festival,” refers to the entire holiday during which leavened bread is not eaten.
Observance of Passover
The laws regarding what may and may not be eaten during Passover are very detailed. Ashkenazic Jews, those from Eastern Europe, have different food traditions than Sephardic Jews, those from Spain, Portugal, and the Middle East. All Jews refrain from eating foods made of the leavened flour of five grains: wheat, barley, spelt, rye, and oats. In addition, Ashkenazic Jews do not eat rice, millet, corn, or legumes, and there is a concern about eating any type of food that swells when cooked in water, like green beans.
In Israel, Passover is a seven-day holiday, as is mandated in the Torah. On the first and last days, no work is done. Outside the Land of Israel, Passover is an eight-day holiday. Adding a day to the festivals outside of Israel is a long-standing tradition that began before the development of a fixed calendar. After the Jewish calendar had been mathematically determined, Diaspora communities were reluctant to give up their extra day of celebration. The first two days and the last two days of Passover are days of rest in which no work is done. The five intermediate days are days of celebration.
The Passover seder, a home-based celebration, is celebrated outside of Israel on the first two nights of the holiday. The word seder means order. The seder consists of fourteen separate rituals and the normal festival candle lighting. Among these rituals are the telling of the Israelites deliverance from bondage in Egypt, the discussion of the various symbolic items on the seder plate, the eating of a festival meal, and the blessing after the meal. The guidebook for the seder is the Haggadah — a book that contains all the rituals, prayers, and songs used in the seder.
The primary theme of Passover today is the liberation of the Israelites from slavery in Egypt through God’s agency. During the seder, four glasses of wine are drunk. These four cups are related to four phrases from the Torah (Exodus 6:6–7) in which God promises to redeem the Israelites.
On every seder table there is is a symbolic fifth cup of wine called the Cup for Elijah.” There is a teaching that the Prophet Elijah will answer Jewish legal questions that the ancient rabbis could not resolve. One of these questions was whether we drink four or five cups of wine or grape juice at the seder. We hope that Elijah will visit us on the night of the seder. If that happens, he will tell us whether we should drink four or five cups. Elijah will also be able to drink from the cup that is set aside for him.
jewishappleseed.org/apple/passover.htm
I think I am going to visit a synogogue today to find out. Are their different practices? If so - then that doesn’t help.
L
LilyM
Guest
There’s no evidence provided that the wine was unfermented - merely this writer’s assertion. It would’ve been impossible. And if it was unfermented at the time of Christ, and important that it be so, why do Jews now use fermented wine? They didn’t change to leavened bread, for example, so why change the wine?
Now I know the BREAD was unleavened - this was not because leaven spoke of sin, rather because it was ‘eaten in haste’ as was the rest of the Passover meal and they didn’t have time to wait for it to rise. Exodus explains this. Wine was no problem - they always had a ready supply of it!
M
malachi_a_serva
Guest
Many Jews observe the positive Torah commandment of eating matzo on the first night of Passover at the Passover Seder, as well as the Torah prohibition against eating or owning Chametz which includes any leavened products — such as bread, cake, cookies, beer, whiskey or pasta (or anything made from raw dough that had been left alone for more than 18 minutes, as it then begins to ferment) — for the duration of the holiday.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover
If that is the case - I cannot see how fermented wine was used. If someone can explain that to me without a doubt - I will go drink a glass of wine
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover
If that is the case - I cannot see how fermented wine was used. If someone can explain that to me without a doubt - I will go drink a glass of wine
M
malachi_a_serva
Guest
[edit] The Four Cups of wine
There is a Rabbinic obligation to drink four cups of wine (or pure grape juice) during the Seder. This applies to both men and women. The Mishnah says (Pes. 10:1) that even the poorest man in Israel has an obligation to drink. Each cup is connected to a different part of the Seder: The First Cup is for Kiddush, the Second Cup is connected with the recounting of the Exodus, the drinking of the Third Cup concludes Birkat Hamazon and the Fourth Cup is associated with Hallel.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover
[edit] Removal and sale of chametz
**In accordance with the mitzvah of not eating or owning leavened products during Passover, religious Jewish families typically spend the weeks before the holiday in a flurry of housecleaning. The purpose is to remove every morsel of fermented grain products (called chametz) from all the cupboards and corners in the home. The search for chametz is often a thorough one, as children’s rooms and kitchens are cleaned from top to bottom and forgotten packages or pieces of cookies or crackers are uncovered under beds and inside closets. Although many ensure that not even a crumb of chametz remains, the Halakha only requires the elimination of olive-sized quantities of leavening from one’s possession.
Meanwhile, the family attempts to consume or dispose of all edible chametz products (like bread, pasta, cookies, soup mixes, and even non-kosher-for-Passover matzo—which, being designed for year-round use, is allowed to rise for more than 18 minutes before baking) so as to have nothing left by the morning before the holiday begins.**
Chametz that has a high monetary value (such as liquor which is made from wheat) may be sold rather than discarded. This sale of chametz is conducted via the community rabbi, who becomes the “agent” for all the community’s Jews through a halakhic procedure called a kinyan (acquisition). As the agent, the rabbi will sell all the chametz to a non-Jew for a price to be negotiated after the holiday. In the meantime, the non-Jew is asked to put down a small down payment (e.g. $1.00), with the remainder due after Passover. As soon as the holiday ends, the rabbi will contact the non-Jew, to buy the community’s chametz back from him. In practice, it is almost always bought back, with a small profit to the non-Jew[2].
This sale is considered completely binding according to Halakha, to the point that each householder must put aside all the chametz he is selling into a box or cupboard and assume that at any time during the holiday, the non-Jewish buyer may come to take or partake of his share. Similarly, Jewish store owners who stock leavened food products sell everything in their storeroom to a non-Jew with full knowledge that the new “owner” can claim his property. In the Eastern European shtetls, the Jews, who were often tavern keepers, would sell their chametz in this way to neighboring non-Jews, and risk having the non-Jews enter their cellars to drink all the liquor during the holiday—which they often did.
[edit] Formal search for chametz
After dark on the 14th of Nisan, a formal search for leavened products (bedikat chametz) is conducted. The head of the house reads a blessing (על ביעור חמץ - al biyur chametz, “on the removal of chametz”) and proceeds to go from room to room and cupboard to cupboard to make sure that no crumbs remain in any corner. There is a custom to turn off the lights in the room being searched and conduct the search using candlelight, a feather and a wooden spoon. Candlelight effectively illuminates corners without casting shadows; the feather can dust crumbs out of their hiding places; and the wooden spoon which collects the crumbs can be burned the next day with the chametz.
Traditionally, 10 morsels of bread are carefully wrapped in aluminium foil or plastic and “hidden” around the house before the search begins. This ensures that the head of the house will find some chametz so that his blessing will not be in vain.
[edit] Burning the chametz
In the morning, any leavened products that were found during the search, along with the 10 morsels of bread, are burned (s’rayfat chametz). The head of the household declares any chametz that may not have been found to be null and void “as the dust of the earth” (biyur chametz). Should more chametz actually be found in the house during the Passover holiday, it must be burnt.
Unlike chametz, which can be eaten any day of the year except during Passover, kosher for Passover foodstuffs can be eaten on Passover and year-round. They need not be burnt after the holiday ends
There is a Rabbinic obligation to drink four cups of wine (or pure grape juice) during the Seder. This applies to both men and women. The Mishnah says (Pes. 10:1) that even the poorest man in Israel has an obligation to drink. Each cup is connected to a different part of the Seder: The First Cup is for Kiddush, the Second Cup is connected with the recounting of the Exodus, the drinking of the Third Cup concludes Birkat Hamazon and the Fourth Cup is associated with Hallel.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover
[edit] Removal and sale of chametz
**In accordance with the mitzvah of not eating or owning leavened products during Passover, religious Jewish families typically spend the weeks before the holiday in a flurry of housecleaning. The purpose is to remove every morsel of fermented grain products (called chametz) from all the cupboards and corners in the home. The search for chametz is often a thorough one, as children’s rooms and kitchens are cleaned from top to bottom and forgotten packages or pieces of cookies or crackers are uncovered under beds and inside closets. Although many ensure that not even a crumb of chametz remains, the Halakha only requires the elimination of olive-sized quantities of leavening from one’s possession.
Meanwhile, the family attempts to consume or dispose of all edible chametz products (like bread, pasta, cookies, soup mixes, and even non-kosher-for-Passover matzo—which, being designed for year-round use, is allowed to rise for more than 18 minutes before baking) so as to have nothing left by the morning before the holiday begins.**
Chametz that has a high monetary value (such as liquor which is made from wheat) may be sold rather than discarded. This sale of chametz is conducted via the community rabbi, who becomes the “agent” for all the community’s Jews through a halakhic procedure called a kinyan (acquisition). As the agent, the rabbi will sell all the chametz to a non-Jew for a price to be negotiated after the holiday. In the meantime, the non-Jew is asked to put down a small down payment (e.g. $1.00), with the remainder due after Passover. As soon as the holiday ends, the rabbi will contact the non-Jew, to buy the community’s chametz back from him. In practice, it is almost always bought back, with a small profit to the non-Jew[2].
This sale is considered completely binding according to Halakha, to the point that each householder must put aside all the chametz he is selling into a box or cupboard and assume that at any time during the holiday, the non-Jewish buyer may come to take or partake of his share. Similarly, Jewish store owners who stock leavened food products sell everything in their storeroom to a non-Jew with full knowledge that the new “owner” can claim his property. In the Eastern European shtetls, the Jews, who were often tavern keepers, would sell their chametz in this way to neighboring non-Jews, and risk having the non-Jews enter their cellars to drink all the liquor during the holiday—which they often did.
[edit] Formal search for chametz
After dark on the 14th of Nisan, a formal search for leavened products (bedikat chametz) is conducted. The head of the house reads a blessing (על ביעור חמץ - al biyur chametz, “on the removal of chametz”) and proceeds to go from room to room and cupboard to cupboard to make sure that no crumbs remain in any corner. There is a custom to turn off the lights in the room being searched and conduct the search using candlelight, a feather and a wooden spoon. Candlelight effectively illuminates corners without casting shadows; the feather can dust crumbs out of their hiding places; and the wooden spoon which collects the crumbs can be burned the next day with the chametz.
Traditionally, 10 morsels of bread are carefully wrapped in aluminium foil or plastic and “hidden” around the house before the search begins. This ensures that the head of the house will find some chametz so that his blessing will not be in vain.
[edit] Burning the chametz
In the morning, any leavened products that were found during the search, along with the 10 morsels of bread, are burned (s’rayfat chametz). The head of the household declares any chametz that may not have been found to be null and void “as the dust of the earth” (biyur chametz). Should more chametz actually be found in the house during the Passover holiday, it must be burnt.
Unlike chametz, which can be eaten any day of the year except during Passover, kosher for Passover foodstuffs can be eaten on Passover and year-round. They need not be burnt after the holiday ends
M
malachi_a_serva
Guest
At the Seder, at the end of KADDESH, MAGGID, BARECH, and HALLEL sections of the Haggadah, each person is obligated to drink a cup of wine.
Though wine is preferable, If someone wishes they may use red grape juice instead of red wine. Either way, red is preferred.
There are many reasons given for the drinking of four cups of wine on the Seder night, one of which is;
Four different terms of deliverance are cited in the book of Shemot (Exodus) (6:6-7).
“…and I will bring you out from under the burden of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from your bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments. And I will take you to me for a people…”
"Vehotzeti, Vehitzalti, Vega’alti, Velakachti,
RECLINING We are required to lean to our left side, during the drinking of the wine and eating of the matza, as a symbol of freedom. Like the olden days, when rich people used to lounge on pillows and special couches.
We are supposed to act in a way that shows majesty and freedom - therefore, each person’s cup is filled by someone else.
As they represent slavery, we do not lean when we eat the maror (bitter herbs).
torahtots.com/holidays/pesach/pesseder.htm
I do not think basing any opinion on what the Jewish do during passover is going to settle this - as it looks like either/or - or different drinks for different folks.
I was going to concede that if the Passover had “wine” (undoubtedly) than yes wine is too be drunk. But it looks like they have no diffinitive answer themselves.
Though wine is preferable, If someone wishes they may use red grape juice instead of red wine. Either way, red is preferred.
There are many reasons given for the drinking of four cups of wine on the Seder night, one of which is;
Four different terms of deliverance are cited in the book of Shemot (Exodus) (6:6-7).
“…and I will bring you out from under the burden of the Egyptians, and I will deliver you from your bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments. And I will take you to me for a people…”
"Vehotzeti, Vehitzalti, Vega’alti, Velakachti,
RECLINING We are required to lean to our left side, during the drinking of the wine and eating of the matza, as a symbol of freedom. Like the olden days, when rich people used to lounge on pillows and special couches.
We are supposed to act in a way that shows majesty and freedom - therefore, each person’s cup is filled by someone else.
As they represent slavery, we do not lean when we eat the maror (bitter herbs).
torahtots.com/holidays/pesach/pesseder.htm
I do not think basing any opinion on what the Jewish do during passover is going to settle this - as it looks like either/or - or different drinks for different folks.
I was going to concede that if the Passover had “wine” (undoubtedly) than yes wine is too be drunk. But it looks like they have no diffinitive answer themselves.
L
LilyM
Guest
None of this arguing over Passover explains the Wedding at Cana. THAT was alcoholic wine, pure and simple - provided by Christ for the enjoyment of the guests. No prohibitions on wine then, and plenty of evidence that it was an alcoholic beverage.Many Jews observe the positive Torah commandment of eating matzo on the first night of Passover at the Passover Seder, as well as the Torah prohibition against eating or owning Chametz which includes any leavened products — such as bread, cake, cookies, beer, whiskey or pasta (or anything made from raw dough that had been left alone for more than 18 minutes, as it then begins to ferment) — for the duration of the holiday.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover
If that is the case - I cannot see how fermented wine was used. If someone can explain that to me without a doubt - I will go drink a glass of wine
For one thing the steward refers to serving the BEST quality wine first, then the worse stuff later when everyone’s had plenty to drink.
First of all whoever heard of ‘best quality’ and ‘worse quality’ grape juice? I never have. Juice is juice, it all would’ve been made from the same fresh grapes and all pretty much the same. Wine, on the other hand, definitely varies a great deal in quality.
Secondly,unless they were getting drunk they would notice cheaper stuff (if there is such a thing as ‘cheaper’ grape juice) being served later. The steward’s comment only makes sense if the guests were getting tipsy on alcohol, only then would they not notice cheaper wine being served later on.
M
malachi_a_serva
Guest
ucalgary.ca/~elsegal/Shokel/950413_Raisin_wine.html
The Great Passover Raisin-Wine Controversy*
First Publication: Jewish Free Press, April 13 1995, p. 17.
Bibliography:
J. Sarna, “Passover Raisin Wine, The American Temperance Movement, and Mordecai Noah: The Origins, Meaning, and Wider Significance of a Nineteenth-Century American Jewish Religious Practice,” HUCA 59 (1988), 269-88.
S. Yahalom, “Jewish Existence in the Shadow of American Legislation: A Study of `Prohibition,’” Tarbiz 53 (1983), 117-36.
I don’t know whether you prefer to use wine or grape juice to fulfill the requirement of drinking “four cups” at the Passover seder. For most of us this question is more a matter of personal taste than a strictly halakhic issue. This however has not invariably been the case, and several testimonies from and about American Jews in the middle of the nineteenth century tell us about a widespread opinion that unfermented “raisin-wine” was the only acceptable beverage for Passover use, and that alcoholic wine was severely frowned upon by Jewish tradition. Some even went so far as to say that alcoholic fermentation was included within the prohibition of h\ametz.
The Great Passover Raisin-Wine Controversy*
First Publication: Jewish Free Press, April 13 1995, p. 17.
Bibliography:
J. Sarna, “Passover Raisin Wine, The American Temperance Movement, and Mordecai Noah: The Origins, Meaning, and Wider Significance of a Nineteenth-Century American Jewish Religious Practice,” HUCA 59 (1988), 269-88.
S. Yahalom, “Jewish Existence in the Shadow of American Legislation: A Study of `Prohibition,’” Tarbiz 53 (1983), 117-36.
I don’t know whether you prefer to use wine or grape juice to fulfill the requirement of drinking “four cups” at the Passover seder. For most of us this question is more a matter of personal taste than a strictly halakhic issue. This however has not invariably been the case, and several testimonies from and about American Jews in the middle of the nineteenth century tell us about a widespread opinion that unfermented “raisin-wine” was the only acceptable beverage for Passover use, and that alcoholic wine was severely frowned upon by Jewish tradition. Some even went so far as to say that alcoholic fermentation was included within the prohibition of h\ametz.
M
malachi_a_serva
Guest
See above post where “good” is defined - according to what I have studied.
As well; I have been told that the greek word “good” in “kept the good wine till last” is the same greek word as in John when scripture referrs to the “good shepard”. And that the greek word mean pure, unblemished, uncorrupted…
uncorrupted being opposite to fermentation. Thoughts.
As well, why would the bread HAVE TO BE unleavened (uncorrupted - no yeast) and then we consume corrupted (fermented) wine? That I cannot grasp. Thoughts?
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