r436yBzMRMJ:www.yeshuatyisrael.com/pdf/sedersetup.pdf+Passover+Seder+wine+or+grape+juice%3F&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=caAgain - why serve unblemished grape juice first and the worse stuff later? Which is what the steward said most people did, as opposed to Jesus. Or are you saying they served FERMENTED stuff (ie … WINE…
) later?
, several months later one of the guys said that he hasn’t been to a strip club since and never will.I would beg to differ as as demonstrated even the Jews are split on this issue. They themselves do not know.Again - why serve unblemished grape juice first and the worse stuff later? Which is what the steward said most people did, as opposed to Jesus. Or are you saying they served FERMENTED stuff (ie … WINE…
There is no point to it, people would notice the worse (blemished) stuff whenever it was served.
It just doesn’t make sense to read it as being only or even partly grape juice. Wouldn’t matter how much ‘good’ grape juice they’d drunk beforehand, people would notice something different being served later.
WINE, on the other hand, gets people tipsy - and I can tell you from personal experience when you start to get tipsy you start not to notice the quality of the later wine you drink. The steward’s comment makes perfect sense then - but ONLY if it was wine.
And I’ve already said - the bread used at Passover was unleavened because God in Exodus ordered it so. He didn’t give the order because leaven is ‘corrupt’, simply because the Israelites were leaving in a hurry and didn’t have the time to wait for the yeast (leaven) to make the bread dough rise. They only had time to make the flat and quickly-cooked unleavened bread. It says exactly so right there in Exodus for crying out loud!
I appreciate your comments.Some are alcoholics because of genetic disposition or other emotional causes. This is a disease requiring treatment (psycological as well as physical). Divine Mercy will be predominant when they meet their Maker if they never overcome this problem.
- Regarding drunkards: I think it is important to understand too distinctions.
Others are alcoholics by lifestyle choice and unwillingness to conform to God. Divine Justice will be predominant for them upon death.
Unfortunately, we don’t have the omniscience to knwo who is which in many cases so we have to reach out to them in charity and love so as to be instruments of the Holy Spirit.
I am a child of an alcholic and so is my wife. We take great personal pains to both be moderate. Because of our parents example, we understand the ostracization that occurs to both one who has a drinking problem and one who chooses or HAS to abstain.
- You raise a good point about non-drinkers sometimes being uncomfortable in social situations that include alcohol consumption. Whether it be because they are non-drinking alchoholics or sacrificial teetotalers, I understand that they may have to sometimes choose to not be at those places. But that places greater obligation for some Christians to be there. Imagine an alcohol served social gathering with no Christians there? Will it provide greater opportunity or less opportunity for great sinfulness?
Let me tell you a little story that involves a different distortion of a gift from God. I went on a golf outing with seven other guys. After a day of golfing, we went to dinner and had a few drinks. Before long someone suggested that they go to the strip club. One person made his views known in a subtle and charitable way and retired to his room. I chose to go along.
The next morning, this fellow Catholic Christian said “I was really disappointed that you condoned their conduct and went along.” To paraphrase my response I said, "you have it wrong. I never condoned it. I went, placed my back to the stage and took great pains to let them know that I wasn’t enjoying the show but was enjoying their company. After listening to a couple of snide remarks about you and your “holier than thou” attitude (to which I said nothing), I was asked why I wasn’t looking at the girls. I responded, “I have daughters and they are someone’s daughter.” You could have heard a pin drop by the two guys who heard my comment who also had daughters. I was given an opportunity to witness in a way by being there that you weren’t. It is in combination that we spread the Good News. I didn’t have to quote scripture, I didn’t separate myself, and I appealed to their inner conscience where the Holy Spirit was already talking.
While this friend still thought I caused scandal, I am quite comfortable that I showed a greater good that I could hate their sin but I still loved them as persons. At the risk of sounding prideful
Coincidentally, the other day I was with this same Catholic Christian. We had been forwarded a “joke” that was offensive. I responded by expressing that I didn’t see any humor. I told this friend that I was disappointed that he didn’t second my opinion. He responded that he just deleted it with no response. I was kinda hard on him for appearing to condone it. Now that I recall these two events together and realized that he always says “good joke” or some other positive response to unoffensive jokes, I realize that I need to better live by my own preaching of the following:
There are different strokes for different folks. We have to respond as we feel called. Not all responses are the same for everyone.
The Word of God was addressed specifically to Aaron and his Sons, not to all Israelites.
Good morning NotWorthy, I appreciate your comments. What about:
Fermentation is a rough process, lots of chemical reactions going on for a while even after you have a drinkable product, and stuff “dropping out” along the way. Part of the process of making wine is to transfer it from one container to another in a way designed to leave behind the parts that have either sunk or are floating. Today, we use mostly glass or plastic for the vairious stage, which hold up well tot he chemical reactions going on. But in Judea at the time the Bible was written, the firs stages were in clay pots, and when drinkable but perhaps not fully cured, it was transferred into a bag made of leather for transportation and use. However, each bag could only handle the finishing process once, after it was emptied it could be used to hold water or the like, but putting in another batch of fresh wine was an invitation for a mess
This is a common assertion by the “no alcohol” proponents. However, yeasts haven’t changed much. Among the brewing and wine making communities, there is stronger conjecture that wines used to be even stronger than they are now, certainly the classical brews and wines are stronger than the mass market stuff.
This was not a Jewish site you referenced, but one by a Christian Fundamentalist likely to have held the no alcohol conclusion before starting to research. From the root page: “These doctrines and categorical lessons are edited versions of the teachings of Robert H. Kreger, pastor of the Metropolitan Bible Church in Berkley, Michigan”. That it was yeast causing the fermentation was probably not fully understood when the rules about leaven were instituted.
Tell that to the batch of wine that i have finishing off in my bathroom, which is tasting quite nice on my first attempt at wine making. The first attempts at making wine were probably completely accidental. If anything, it is hard not to make wine with unpasteurized fruit juice.
Hey I am just searching the web. On the web it says alcohol making is hard. Others say easy. Some say keeping grape-wine is easy - alcoholic wine as we know it - hard.
Absolutely no offense taken.
Forget Passover, as you said there’s evidence on both sides. Let’s just concentrate on the Wedding at Cana now.
I have studied where in the Bible, i.e. Rev. 21:8
I hope you see how this line of reasoning is faulty. The reality is a disease such as alcoholism only pre-deposes a person towards drinking excessively. This does not mean that the person affected by the disease does not have control over it. Just like a person with diabetes has control on how the disease affects them through medication, diet and excercise.
First with regard to what is underlined, see the following from Scripture
The quote you provided said do not drink… when you go into the Temple.
No.
My hobby is making beer and wine.