Alien life form 'is here on Earth'

[Anselm33]

This is true, but I believe what makes this particular discovery unique is that arsenic is actually able to replace phosphorus in the molecules of the amino acids in the DNA code. This isn’t just a life form that’s able to survive another way, like the deep sea life that survives off of chemosynthesis without use of the sun. This is literally a different way of writing the code that creates life.

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101202/sc_nm/us_arsenic_bacteria

no data was given to show that arsenic replaced phosphorus, just that “only a trace of phosphorus” was found. There was no chemical analysis, no structural analysis. And the arsenic would replace phosphorus in the phosphate of the sugar molecules that form the hydrophilic (water-loving) coat of DNA, not in the amino acids. Moreover, the arsenic would have to replace phosporus in the phosphate chains of ATP and ADP; the conversion of ATP to ADP is what supplies energy in biochemical cycles. The energetics for a tri-arsenate chain to go to a di-arsenate chain aren’t there. I suggest the whole article be taken with a large grain of Lake Mono salt. Newspaper accounts of science are notoriously misleading. I’d prefer to read about this in Science, after (or if) it’s accepted.
anselm

 

[Rolltide]

Well spotted Rolltide, but without his permission. I have no doubt he would condone proper scientific investigation but not anti-Genesis propaganda NASA (and the Vatican Observatory) indulges in.

How on earth would sending a space probe to Saturn be unacceptable to Cassini?

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Being of a creationist bent, I lifted this from “Answers in Genesis” in relation to this topic.

I note that in its natural environment, the bacteria did not use arsenic naturally in its diet ie. it continued to use phosphorus, which apparently was still present even in Lake Mono. It was only under enforced laboratory conditions that it adapted to using arsenic. But it “thrived best” on a phosphorus based diet.

I also fail to see how this overturns the problem of the creation of DNA etc. and all the necessary microbiological machinery which must accompany it in the first place.

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"2. BBC News: “Arsenic-Loving Bacteria May Help in Hunt for Alien Life”

We reported in February and October 2009 on the quest to find “aliens” on earth. This week’s news? They’ve found them.

The microorganisms aren’t quite what most people imagine when they hear “aliens,” especially since the life-forms are from earth. But the organisms can use arsenic to function in place of phosphorus, a biological ability both novel and, well, alien to life as we know it—or, rather, knew it.

The bacterium was found in California’s strange Mono Lake, a chemically abnormal lake home that has higher-than-normal levels of arsenic. Although arsenic is chemically similar to phosphorus, an element long thought to be crucial for life, arsenic is usually toxic. Nonetheless, researchers have speculated that arsenic-based life might exist on earth, arguing that if so, it would force a major revision in our ideas about what basic elements life requires.

In this case, the bacteria did not use arsenic naturally, but instead adapted to use it in a laboratory setting as researchers increased the level of arsenic in its diet. Eventually, the bacteria began using the arsenic as a normal part of their metabolic and cellular processes—whereas most organisms would have died. Still, the bacteria reportedly “thrived best” on a phosphorus diet.

In that sense, although the discovery of a life-form that can live on arsenic is fascinating, it falls short of predictions that we might find a “shadow biosphere” of life-forms based on arsenic that (allegedly) evolved separately from phosphorus-based life. Arizona State University astrobiologist Paul Davies, one of the scientists behind the research, explained, “At the moment we have no idea if life is just a freak, bizarre accident which is confined to earth or whether it is a natural part of a fundamentally biofriendly universe in which life pops up wherever there are earth-like conditions.” He added candidly, “Although it is fashionable to support the latter view, we have zero evidence in favour of it.”

So while some may see in the discovery more evidence that “aliens” may be out there (albeit genuine extraterrestrials), it in fact offers less evidence for the possibility of a unique form of life than some scientists had hoped for. Further, learning that life can live on a slightly different chemical cocktail does nothing to show that life of any sort can evolve; the two are distinct questions. Finally, and as we pointed out previously, given that the evolutionary origin of life is a dubious speculation (for creationists) and not well understood problem (for evolutionists), positing a separate form of life that evolved independently would raise more questions than it would answer and only cast further doubt on the evolutionary enterprise."

 

[Anselm33]

I still haven’t seen anything in any published article that showed that arsenic replaced phosphorus in ATP, ADP or other phosphate containing molecules. No data was given other than an analysis of arsenic and phosphorus (and I haven’t seen the numbers on those). Pardon me if I continue to be a scientific skeptic. There were lots of news reports on earth-shaking findings like cold fusion and polywater which turned out to be errors in analysis or keeping conditions clean. I would guess, until a full report is given, that this may be a similar scientific flash in the pan.
anselm

 

[cassini]

How on earth would sending a space probe to Saturn be unacceptable to Cassini?

I qualified that Rolltide by saying he would have had no problem in probing Saturn to identify the planet better, but when these space probes are used for propaganda, that is, used to find ‘signs of life’, he would have objected to his name being used. In his time, the Church taught the literal, simple, geocentric, 100% theological compatible words of Genesis, none of that 2% theologically compatible E nonsense about life beginning on Mars or in an acidic lake five billion years ago. Today we are inundated with ‘Life could have…’ that are nothing but Godless wishes.

OK Rolltide?

 

[johnpfmcguire]

Cassini you have changed my world. Thank you. I only hope more people will listen to you.

 

[Rolltide]

I qualified that Rolltide by saying he would have had no problem in probing Saturn to identify the planet better, but when these space probes are used for propaganda, that is, used to find ‘signs of life’, he would have objected to his name being used. In his time, the Church taught the literal, simple, geocentric, 100% theological compatible words of Genesis, none of that 2% theologically compatible E nonsense about life beginning on Mars or in an acidic lake five billion years ago. Today we are inundated with ‘Life could have…’ that are nothing but Godless wishes.

OK Rolltide?

Unfortunately no. Just because one uses a space probe to look for signs of life does not automatically mean that every scientist behind it is some godless atheist. It also does NOT mean that evolutionary theory (with some very specific guidelines that must be adhered to as set by the church) is incompatible with the faith either. Further, even if life was found elsewhere in the universe, it doesn’t change the Catholic faith one iota, at least as set forth for humans.

 

[johnpfmcguire]

Masons think their Occult science is never incompatible with the Catholic Faith simply because they think it is beyond it, more enlightened, which is an easy paradigm to adopt once one overcomes the hurdle of denying the supernatural. There are many ways to write off the supernatural: you can chalk it up to imagination, fanaticism, the subconscious…there’s a whole lexicon of pseudoscientific terms used not to advance science but to undermine both science and religion. People whose religion is Macroevolutionism never distinguish between macro- and microevolution - hence the diabolically unclear term “evolution” being thrown around like a political football - because once the intellect does that the cult of Darwinism begins irrevocably to crumble. Darwin and Marx had one common mission: to distort humanity. The devil always helps those who attack God, and being that the human being bears God’s image we are prime targets. Transhumanism has inspired not the innovation or the science but certainly the distortion and the spins which take up 99% of the U.S. intellect. Microevolution (better known as adaptation) is amenable to Faith, reason, science and common sense. Macroevolution is amenable more to Occult philosophy, Platonism, Communism and transhumanism. One can only hope this clears the air at least for those who read it. They say a word to the wise is sufficient. It is by no coincidence aliens are routinely depicted as serpents.

 

[cassini]

Unfortunately no. Just because one uses a space probe to look for signs of life does not automatically mean that every scientist behind it is some godless atheist. It also does NOT mean that evolutionary theory (with some very specific guidelines that must be adhered to as set by the church) is incompatible with the faith either. Further, even if life was found elsewhere in the universe, it doesn’t change the Catholic faith one iota, at least as set forth for humans.

Well Rolltide, your Catholic faith can find room for evolution and alien life, but my Catholic faith does not, and I believe Cassini’s would not either. Of course it changes the Catholic faith many iotas. The whole concept of the creation of the angels, the universe, flora, fauna and man is seriously compromised, as is the Redemption. The search for aliens is but a continuation and extension of the Copernican heresy, Copernican evolutionism. The search for ‘alien life’ is the search for a godless world. If you haven’t figured that out by now, time to wake up. Compromisers are the Catholic faith’s greatest ememies. I respect those who hold atheistic evolutionism, I respect those who adhere to Catholic creationism, but spare me from those who promote a compromising evolutionary Catholicism, they want to play it safe, have their intellectual pride among their peers and have their Catholicism. When God chose a man to champion Christianity He did not chose a compromiser, He chose St Paul, that impressed me.

Oh, by the way, bet you anything aliens will NOT be found in our or any other lifetime. Why not use the money to protect life on earth.

 

[johnpfmcguire]

Bullseye.

 

[Rolltide]

Oh, by the way, bet you anything aliens will NOT be found in our or any other lifetime. Why not use the money to protect life on earth.

Interestingly, I believe that you are correct. If there is alien life, I think it will be many generations before some type of alien life is discovered, and even then, I think it is most likely to be microbial. I realize that you don’t believe such a thing would happen, but if it did, I would be curious as to how such a discovery would impact your view of Catholicism.

 

[johnpfmcguire]

It is more likely that the sky turn purple tomorrow, but nothing factual ever seems to contradict orthodox Catholicism, only crackpot theories. Kind of funny, huh? If anyone cared to honestly look at history they’d find out pretty quick that crackpot speculation such as this has never advanced but only hindered legitimate science. I guess that’s what they refer to as “a word to the wise.”

 

[buffalo]

This is true, but I believe what makes this particular discovery unique is that arsenic is actually able to replace phosphorus in the molecules of the amino acids in the DNA code. This isn’t just a life form that’s able to survive another way, like the deep sea life that survives off of chemosynthesis without use of the sun. This is literally a different way of writing the code that creates life.

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20101202/sc_nm/us_arsenic_bacteria

Another plug for IDvolution.

 

[StAnastasia]

Another plug for IDvolution.

"The Discovery Institute has from its beginning claimed it would in short order get actual scientists to consider intelligent design as a viable scientific theory, by publishing peer-reviewed articles in the leading science journals. But they’ve failed. And no matter how much cheering the Institute Fellows get from friendly audiences at Bible schools and church socials, the reality is: this was not the way things were supposed to turn out.

"And now, they’re losing the Catholics. This past year, prominent Catholic conservative intellectuals at once ID-friendly magazines and web sites, started to break their silence about the vapidity of intelligent design.

"First, Edward Feser, professor of philosophy at Pasadena College, began posting a series of essays showing up the hollow philosophical shell at the heart of intelligent design. Feser’s main point is that, at least for Catholics, ID is hopelessly devoid of solid metaphysical grounding:

huffingtonpost.com/john-farrell/intelligent-design-losing_b_790527.html?ref=email_share

 

[buffalo]

"The Discovery Institute has from its beginning claimed it would in short order get actual scientists to consider intelligent design as a viable scientific theory, by publishing peer-reviewed articles in the leading science journals. But they’ve failed. And no matter how much cheering the Institute Fellows get from friendly audiences at Bible schools and church socials, the reality is: this was not the way things were supposed to turn out.

"And now, they’re losing the Catholics. This past year, prominent Catholic conservative intellectuals at once ID-friendly magazines and web sites, started to break their silence about the vapidity of intelligent design.

"First, Edward Feser, professor of philosophy at Pasadena College, began posting a series of essays showing up the hollow philosophical shell at the heart of intelligent design. Feser’s main point is that, at least for Catholics, ID is hopelessly devoid of solid metaphysical grounding:

huffingtonpost.com/john-farrell/intelligent-design-losing_b_790527.html?ref=email_share

The conclusion will be different about IDvolution. It is the solution.

 

[johnpfmcguire]

That’s the difference between a philosopher and a professor of philosophy. A philosopher (such as buffalo) would go find the metaphysical grounding.

 

[Anselm33]

skymania.com/wp/2010/11/alien…on-earth.html/

Sensation title, but the article explains that life emerged from a toxic lake. The microbes are based on arsenic, not the usual phosphorous.

I suppose the implications are that life on Earth may not be so unique in the universe. But I am a laymen, so what do I know?

I’ve looked at the communication in online Science (via my university library facility) and I’ll modify (somewhat) my original skepticism. The growth data look persuasive. The inference about replacement of phosphate by arsenate in small molecules is done by “synchrotron X-ray studies to determine the speciation and chemical environment of the intracellular arsenic (11). Micro X-ray absorption near edge spectroscopy (μXANES) of +As/-P grown cells exhibited an absorption edge characteristic of As(V) coordination with no evidence of As(III) observed.” (quoting from the article.) Reading further, the identification of arsenate in small biomolecules is speculative, i.e. uses inter-atomic distance findings to infer chemical species present. I’ll quote again from the last sentence: “How arsenic insinuates itself into the structure of biomolecules is unclear, and the mechanisms by which such molecules operate are unknown.” My take is that the results look interesting, and worth following up with a more definitive analysis than the x-ray edge absorption spectroscopy.
We’ll wait and see if this is another “cold fusion” episode, or something more interesting.
anselm.

 

[StAnastasia]

The conclusion will be different about IDvolution. It is the solution.

You’d better get Casey Luskin and Bruce Chapman working on this fast, as the DI is losing Catholic adherents. If you don’t have major papers published on “IDvolution” in major journals, and sessions scheduled at scientific conferences, no one is going to take you seriously.

 

[johnpfmcguire]

Someone’s going to have to explain the concept of IDvolution to me. I always thought Intelligent Design already allowed for the Occult theory of Macroevolution, no? And while we’re in the field of junk science, why not borrow EGOvolution from psychanalysis to add to the crackpot mix? Or we could just cut to the chase and go diving for Atlantis. Who brought their scuba gear?

 

[cassini]

Interestingly, I believe that you are correct. If there is alien life, I think it will be many generations before some type of alien life is discovered, and even then, I think it is most likely to be microbial. I realize that you don’t believe such a thing would happen, but if it did, I would be curious as to how such a discovery would impact your view of Catholicism.

Good reply Rolltide. What I meant of course was that alien life will never be found, whether microbial, whole or human. I say this based on my Catholic faith, not science. As an example of this faith let me quote the rarely quoted bit (in blue) from Cardinal Bellarmine’s Letter to Foscarini, 1615 with another act of faith against scientific possibilities that proved true.

'Third. I say that if there were a true demonstration that the sun was in the centre of the universe and the earth in the third sphere, and that the sun did not travel around the earth but the earth circled the sun, then it would be necessary to proceed with great caution in explaining the passages of Scripture which seemed contrary, and we would rather have to say that we did not understand them than to say that something was false which has been demonstrated. But as for myself, I do not believe that there is any such demonstration; none has been shown to me. It is not the same thing to show that the appearances are saved by assuming that the sun is at the centre and the earth is in the heavens, as it is to demonstrate that the sun really is in the centre and the earth in the heavens. I believe that the first demonstration might exist, but I have grave doubts about the second, and in a case of doubt, one may not depart from the Scriptures as explained by the holy Fathers.

I add that the words “the sun also riseth and the sun goeth down, and hasteneth to the place where he ariseth, etc.” were those of Solomon, who not only spoke by divine inspiration but was a man wise above all others and most learned in human sciences and in the knowledge of all created things, and his wisdom was from God. Thus it is not too likely that he would affirm something which was contrary to a truth either already demonstrated, or likely to be demonstrated. And if you tell me that Solomon spoke only according to the appearances, and that it seems to us that the sun goes around when actually it is the earth which moves, as it seems to one on a ship that the beach moves away from the ship, I shall answer that one who departs from the beach, though it looks to him as though the beach moves away, he knows that he is in error and corrects it, seeing clearly that the ship moves and not the beach. But with regard to the sun and the earth, no wise man is needed to correct the error, since he clearly experiences that the earth stands still and that his eye is not deceived when it judges that the moon and stars move. And that is enough for the present.
I salute Your Reverence and ask God to grant you every happiness. From my house, April 12, 1615,
Your very Reverend Paternity’s brother,
Cardinal Robert Bellarmine

I believe earth is the only ‘world’ wherein life resides. I see no purpose in it being created anywhere else. God could of course have done that but from reading St Thomas in Paula Haigh’s 40 Theses against E I believe scholastic philosophy dismisses it. Again I stress, that microbial life you consider possible is another word for life from inorganic matter. That is what Atheists believe. And please do not tell me God gave chemicals the ‘power’ to generate life by natural means. that is the Catholic compromise of God.s *ex nihilo *creative act.

So, like Cardinal Bellarmine, the question ‘what would happen to my faith if life was found’, is like saying, ‘what would happen my faith if they discovered Christ did not rise from the dead.’