All about Seventh Day Adventists and Catholics

[Kyrby_Caluna]

I was once a doubting Catholic and so it lead me to attend many churches. One of them is a Seventh day Adventist Church. I attended for 6 months and was very much acquainted with their beliefs through their pastors and televisions like 3ABN and Hope Channel. If I were to say that Sola Scriptura is the truth, then I’m 100% sure that the most Bible-based Protestant denomination in the world is the Seventh-day Adventist Church. But since, I now don’t believe in Sola Scriptura, it lead me back to the only true church, the Catholic Church. I attended and studied the beliefs of many other churches: SDA, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, Dispensationalists, Iglesia ni Cristo, etc. etc. Too many to count.****

 

[Pythons]

I was once a doubting Catholic and so it lead me to attend many churches. One of them is a Seventh day Adventist Church. I attended for 6 months and was very much acquainted with their beliefs through their pastors and televisions like 3ABN and Hope Channel. If I were to say that Sola Scriptura is the truth, then I’m 100% sure that the most Bible-based Protestant denomination in the world is the Seventh-day Adventist Church. But since, I now don’t believe in Sola Scriptura, it lead me back to the only true church, the Catholic Church. I attended and studied the beliefs of many other churches: SDA, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Pentecostals, Evangelicals, Dispensationalists, Iglesia ni Cristo, etc. etc. Too many to count.****

First off - Praise God you are back!

2nd,

How did you justify the SDA teaching that Christ could have sinned and lost His salvation & Christ prior to the Incarnation existed as archangel Michael to be “Bible-based”?

 

[Coimbe]

I’ve been following this thread with interest, but all the back and forth without regard to questions and the weird SDA propaganda about monasteries with skulls etc. was exhausting!

I think it all boils down to the questions “What do you think of Catholics?” and the answer that was something like “I think there are some good Catholics.” That’s a dodge and almost exactly the same answer that I saw in a SDA propaganda book I happened to see sitting on a table at my mother-in-laws house, which stated that the Catholic Church, Vatican, and Pope were the great evil BUT there could be some good Catholics so try to convert them. My husband’s family are die hard SDA’s and my husband (now an atheist - go figure!) has told me some hair raising stories about growing up in the church and what they say about Catholics. Basically, the church is the whore of Babylon, 666=the pope, and we all are the minions of the anti-Christ who bear the mark of the beast. I thought this was probably all just closeted bigotry, but I’ve seen them come right out and say these things on 3ABN (I watched just to see if my husband was really telling me the truth because I couldn’t believe that could be the case in this modern age). The last Christmas we spent together with his family they brought out a DVD on the prophesies of the book of Daniel and wanted to watch it. I knew what it was, of course, but played ignorant, hoping they would drop the idea of watching it. One of the family members came right out and explained that it was about how the bible confirms that the Pope is the antichrist. Seriously?! And on Christmas no less?! Nice. For me that was the exact same as if they had brought out a Neo Nazi DVD for a Jew to watch or a KKK video for an African American. I’m terrified how this will affect my children and really shocked that it could still exist in such an open way in today’s world. Sad, sad, sad.

 

[KathleenGee]

Welcome to Christ’s Church…He founded only one Church.

What I point out to them, and they can’t see it, is that part of their whole momentum is that they are right and we are condemned…and when I hear that bit oh, there are some good Catholics, it is the same you hear from other Restorationists.

Their religion appears to be based on self-righteousness and using the Sacred Word of God, meant to nurture and guide us, as instead a tool to invalidate millions and millions of Catholics.

I saw one SDA TV show, beginning with a big number 7 next to the front door…and Ellen White was into numerology.

All these groups come out of the United States. We have among the most bigoted and deliberately closed minded Christians on the planet. Two guys came to my front door to tell me how the priests molest children, and I slammed the door on their face.

Another guy from a Bible college in town told me about how Catholics masturbate while praying the rosary just like the Buddhist monks do with their beads…my girlfriend, raised Catholic…she and her husband joined the SDA’s in the South. Her mother came to visit. When she went to the church meeting, the minister got up and began denouncing the Catholic Church. The mother got up and when starting to leave, he insulted her behind her back. Sick religionist. Here in this state, they put up a big billboard next to the interstate with a picture of John Paul II on it calling him the anti-christ. I think there is much more presence of God in John Paul II than in these kinds of groups condemning that which they cannot understand.

My friends came to my house and asked me questions, like do you believe the bible is the Word of God, do you place the Word of God above the Church?..well then how do you explain this and that?..I couldn’t then…but I was praying the rosary by then and the Blessed Mother protected me.

Later they started questioning the SDA beliefs, saw errors, found out about the numerology and some other things, and left. But they did not have the Catholic faith. They became evangelicals instead.

I have heard the SDA’s are the least receptive to the RCIA classes and don’t stay.
A Catholic woman in ours married a man from the SDA’s, but it worked out. There is mutual respect and she shares with us the loving things her in-laws do in when teaching her children…nothing to contradict our faith…a different perspective, though.

I was invited to another fundamentalist church when I was 8. The minister got up yelling, and said the Catholic Church was going to hell. I saw nothing holy in the meeting room, saw darkness in there, and never wanted to go back to a protestant church again. In college, I went to some evangelicals, Methodist, Lutheran, and they were all very nice. Nothing like the other.

So in time people reap what they sow.

 

[Pythons]

The SDA’s are inbetween a massive rock and VERY hard place in that the current SDA leadership…
…Is attempting to move the Church in the direction of Trinitarianism while doing it’s best to maintain Ellen White as a prophet.
…Unfortunately the two cannot be reconciled.

The SDA Church has started to fracture into splinter cell groups which are now calling the General Conference…
…A sister power of the Catholic Church.
…The issue has been sparked by the growing numbers of SDA’s who realize that Ellen White was against the Trinity.

Of course the steam that powered the SDA engine was simply a hatred of the Catholic Church…
…And in the 1800’s this was generally all Prot’s wanted or needed to know about fellow Prots.
…I.E. do they also hate the Catholic Church? Ok - then we give them a pass.

Coimbes’ post lines up exactly with the anti-Catholic teachings of Ellen White - what follows is a dream she detailed.

Ellen White, Testimonies Volume 1 578.1
That night I dreamed that I was in Battle Creek looking out from the side glass at the door and saw a company marching up to the house, two and two. They looked stern and determined. I knew them well and turned to open the parlor door to receive them, but thought I would look again. The scene was changed. The company** now presented the appearance of a Catholic procession**. One bore in his hand a cross, another a reed. And as they approached, the one carrying a reed made a circle around the house, saying three times: “This house is proscribed. The goods must be confiscated. They have spoken against our holy order.” Terror seized me, and I ran through the house, out of the north door, and found myself in the midst of a company, some of whom I knew, but I dared not speak a word to them for fear of being betrayed. I tried to seek a retired spot where I might weep and pray without meeting eager, inquisitive eyes wherever I turned. I repeated frequently: “If I could only understand this! If they will tell me what I have said or what I have done!” I wept and prayed much as I saw our goods confiscated. I tried to read sympathy or pity for me in the looks of those around me, and marked the countenances of several whom I thought would speak to me and comfort me if they did not fear that they would be observed by others. I made one attempt to escape from the crowd, but seeing that I was watched, I concealed my intentions. I commenced weeping aloud, and saying: “If they would only tell me what I have done or what I have said!” My husband, who was sleeping in a bed in the same room, heard me weeping aloud and awoke me. My pillow was wet with tears, and a sad depression of spirits was upon me.

Ellen had convinced herself that Great Controversy theme she described of Michael the archangel Vs Lucifer…
…Would again be repeated by the wicked Church who stole the truth Sabbath Vs the true Sabbath keeping people of God.
…This is the whole foundation of the SDA hatred of Catholicism.
…For they believe that we will eventually come after them and torture them for keeping Saturday as the Sabbath.

If the SDA’s didn’t have this teaching they would cease to be Seventh-day Adventist…
…Which would NOT be in the best interest for them wereas MONEY is concerned.

The most dangerous teaching of SDAism I believe isn’t the sabbath one at all…
…It’s the absolute maggoty anti-Trinitarian promulgations of Ellen White.

Aside from that the SDA’s have many good things going for them with their Schools and medical work…
…Many SDA’s are Doctors and Nurses and the Priest who married my wife and I had his life save by them in Africa.

 

[KathleenGee]

well, it looks like some more people to pray for in the book of intentions…will put their names in for this coming Sunday Mass…

 

[loneviking]

I’ve been following this thread with interest, but all the back and forth without regard to questions and the weird SDA propaganda about monasteries with skulls etc. was exhausting!

I think it all boils down to the questions “What do you think of Catholics?” and the answer that was something like “I think there are some good Catholics.” That’s a dodge and almost exactly the same answer that I saw in a SDA propaganda book I happened to see sitting on a table at my mother-in-laws house, which stated that the Catholic Church, Vatican, and Pope were the great evil BUT there could be some good Catholics so try to convert them. My husband’s family are die hard SDA’s and my husband (now an atheist - go figure!) has told me some hair raising stories about growing up in the church and what they say about Catholics. Basically, the church is the whore of Babylon, 666=the pope, and we all are the minions of the anti-Christ who bear the mark of the beast. I thought this was probably all just closeted bigotry, but I’ve seen them come right out and say these things on 3ABN (I watched just to see if my husband was really telling me the truth because I couldn’t believe that could be the case in this modern age). The last Christmas we spent together with his family they brought out a DVD on the prophesies of the book of Daniel and wanted to watch it. I knew what it was, of course, but played ignorant, hoping they would drop the idea of watching it. One of the family members came right out and explained that it was about how the bible confirms that the Pope is the antichrist. Seriously?! And on Christmas no less?! Nice. For me that was the exact same as if they had brought out a Neo Nazi DVD for a Jew to watch or a KKK video for an African American. I’m terrified how this will affect my children and really shocked that it could still exist in such an open way in today’s world. Sad, sad, sad.

To be fair, it isn’t just SDA’s that do this, although they have a pretty systematic anti-catholic teaching. But, there are other protestant groups and writers just as virulently anti-Catholic such as Jack Chick and Dave Hunt, the author of the book ‘A Woman Rides the Beast’.

Further, the Catholic church doesn’t help it’s image either when there are dozens of priests being either prosecuted and/or defrocked for all sorts of nasty sexual behavior…behavior that was covered up by the bishops and cardinals of the church. For some of us raised in these anti-Catholic enviroments, just being around a priest gives us the willies, wondering what evil they are up too.

It’s going to take a long time and a lot of effort to ever bridge the Catholic/Protestant divide.

 

[Pythons]

It’s certainly true that we’ve all fallen short and I for one am disgusted at the damage gay & pedophile Priests problem brought to the cause of Christ…
…I would still say that when one considers the size of the Catholic Church it didn’t have more molesters in it’s clergy.
…Than clergy in Prot denominatiions.

You certainly made a good point Loneviking - the Church militant is made up of humans…
…Running the pure water of the gospel through our rusty pipes.
…May God help us all.

 

[Coimbe]

To be fair, it isn’t just SDA’s that do this, although they have a pretty systematic anti-catholic teaching. But, there are other protestant groups and writers just as virulently anti-Catholic such as Jack Chick and Dave Hunt, the author of the book ‘A Woman Rides the Beast’.

Further, the Catholic church doesn’t help it’s image either when there are dozens of priests being either prosecuted and/or defrocked for all sorts of nasty sexual behavior…behavior that was covered up by the bishops and cardinals of the church. For some of us raised in these anti-Catholic enviroments, just being around a priest gives us the willies, wondering what evil they are up too.

It’s going to take a long time and a lot of effort to ever bridge the Catholic/Protestant divide.

I have a large range of experience with other protestant groups, such as Episcopalians, Presbyterians, Methodists, Evangelicals, and Mormons and have never seen the evil Catholic Church wacky conspiracy theories to the extant that the SDA’s do it. My dad was raised as a Baptist, going to bible school and church in the Deep South and he said that never in his life did he hear or experience any of this type of rhetoric. So the “everyone does it” excuse doesn’t really work when you are talking about prophesy DVD’s at Christmas. Adventism is based on two things 1) Saturday worship 2) the Catholic Church is evil.

However, I can see the logic of going after the Catholic Church if you are a protestant religion since the entire existence of your faith hinges on the fact that there had/has to be something wrong with Catholicism. But if just being around a Catholic priest give you the “willies” (the same sort of indoctrination my husband struggled against as a child - once he seriously thought that an old lady who had given him a cookie was trying to poison him when he ate it after finding out she was Catholic) it gives ME the “willies” to think of these congregations spending their church time spinning wacky theories about minions and prophesies and indoctrinating their children into bigotry and hate.

Say what you want about Catholicism, but having practiced it while living in four countries and having gone to several Catholic schools, I have never heard a priest say anything negative about Protestants, Jews, Muslims, etc. Never. Is it because all other religions are perfect, with no child molesting pastors or rabbis, no hypocrisy, no doctrinal issues that we disagree with? No, we just have better things to do - like actually practicing Christianity.

At the end of mass, the priest asks the congregation to pray “So that all Christians everywhere can come together in peace, love, and understanding.” Of course, when I told my Adventists friends this, they interpreted it as “See! The Catholic Church IS on a mission to force everyone to submit to their will, become Catholic, and worship only on Sunday.” Sure.

 

[barboza21]

barboza21,

What is your understanding of the theological ramifications of Post # 170 in this thread?
…And do you see how those beliefs could warp ones understanding of the Apocalypse St. John wrote.

I understand and believe Jesus is 100 percent God. I know He is. I find it hard to believe how so people reject His Divinity, yet I see it all the time.

Specifically, how do you mean? about “how those beliefs could warp ones understanding of the Apocalypse St. John wrote.”

 

[Pythons]

barboza21:

I understand and believe Jesus is 100 percent God. I know He is. I find it hard to believe how so people reject His Divinity, yet I see it all the time.

Specifically, how do you mean? about “how those beliefs could warp ones understanding of the Apocalypse St. John wrote.”

In the SDA rubric Michael the archangel got His diety “conferred” or “gifted” by the real God ( The Father )…
…This is how Ellen White was able to say it was impossible for Diety to sink and eternally die.
…While it WAS very possible that Christ could sink and eternally die.

Because the diety Michael possessed wasn’t intrinsic to him Michael was required to continue to meet the conditions…
…So that he would be able to “keep” his “conditional” diety.

According to SDA theology the ONLY people saved at the end of days will be those who keep Saturday as a Sabbath…
…Therefore Christ was an “example” of how humanity must continue to keep the holy law of God, of which the Sabbath is the most important part.

Apocalypse in SDA theology is interpreted to be the great final battle between those who worship Christ on Sunday…
…Vs those who worship Christ on Saturday.
…Those who worship Christ on Sunday are understood to be paying homage to Lucifer.
…Who they claim is the god of Sunday.

 

[loneviking]

In the SDA rubric Michael the archangel got His diety “conferred” or “gifted” by the real God ( The Father )…
…This is how Ellen White was able to say it was impossible for Diety to sink and eternally die.
…While it WAS very possible that Christ could sink and eternally die.

Because the diety Michael possessed wasn’t intrinsic to him Michael was required to continue to meet the conditions…
…So that he would be able to “keep” his “conditional” diety.

I’m not sure where you got this from, but the source is not reliable as to SDA theology!

Michael, in SDA theology IS Christ and appears both pre and post incarnate in the Bible. (I’m not defending this belief, just clearing this up). I would be very curious as to where you got the idea that deity was conferred on Michael? I learned my theology from some very good SDA theologians and I never heard that from them.

I also don’t recall ever seeing a quote from EGW that it was impossible for God to die. That would be in direct contradiction to the SDA belief that there is no soul, and there is no hell at present. In turn, that means the Christ had no conciousness after death, and contrary to what some read in the Bible, He did not descend into Hell.

I know, it’s hard to grasp and the longer I’m out of Adventism the harder it is for me to explain—especially with a straight face.

 

[Pythons]

lineviking,

Ellen White
Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own.** His Deity could not be lost **WHILE He stood faithful and true to His loyalty. Surrounded with sorrow, suffering, and moral pollution, despised and rejected by the people to whom had been intrusted the oracles of heaven, Jesus could yet speak of Himself as the Son of man in heaven. He was ready to take once more His divine glory when His work on earth was done

That’s conditional diety right there…
…diety was Christ’s as long as He didn’t sin and loose it.
…If He sinned the diety would go back to the Father who issued it.
…And Christ would of course eternally die.

Ellen White
Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen

Ellen White
The new tomb enclosed Him in its rocky chambers. **If **one single sin had tainted His character the stone would never have been rolled away from the door of His rocky chamber, and the world with its burden of guilt would have perished

Ellen White
Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour’s head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope.” ( Signs of the Times, June 9th 1898, see also Selected Messages Book 1 page 256)

Ellen White also said it was the pre-Incarnate Christ who risked his future eternal existence by coming to earth to try and save man…
…If you would like I can also provide her direct quotes to that effect.

 

[loneviking]

lineviking,

Ellen White
Though Christ humbled Himself to become man, the Godhead was still His own.** His Deity could not be lost **WHILE He stood faithful and true to His loyalty. Surrounded with sorrow, suffering, and moral pollution, despised and rejected by the people to whom had been intrusted the oracles of heaven, Jesus could yet speak of Himself as the Son of man in heaven. He was ready to take once more His divine glory when His work on earth was done

That’s conditional diety right there…
…diety was Christ’s as long as He didn’t sin and loose it.
…If He sinned the diety would go back to the Father who issued it.
…And Christ would of course eternally die.

Ellen White
Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted. He could have sinned; He could have fallen

Ellen White
The new tomb enclosed Him in its rocky chambers. **If **one single sin had tainted His character the stone would never have been rolled away from the door of His rocky chamber, and the world with its burden of guilt would have perished

Ellen White
Could Satan in the least particular have tempted Christ to sin, he would have bruised the Saviour’s head. As it was, he could only touch His heel. Had the head of Christ been touched, the hope of the human race would have perished. Divine wrath would have come upon Christ as it came upon Adam. Christ and the church would have been without hope.” ( Signs of the Times, June 9th 1898, see also Selected Messages Book 1 page 256)

Ellen White also said it was the pre-Incarnate Christ who risked his future eternal existence by coming to earth to try and save man…
…If you would like I can also provide her direct quotes to that effect.

Is this in response to my post? Because if it is, you really didn’t adress the issues. There isn’t one thing in here about Michael. And yes, I already know about the conditional deity, which is heresy. Put simply, the SDA position is that of two natures/beings in one body. One human, one divine. The divine aspect was ‘on loan’ from God the Father, instead of the intertwined God/man that orthodox Christianity teaches. And, as you just quoted, it would be impossible for ‘God’ to die as if Christ failed, the divine essence would return to the Father.

Where the SDA theology falls apart is this:
Christ didn’t fail, He died, and yet the essence would not have gone back to the Father—so how did the Trinity exist if Christ was not concious and working during the time He was dead? Try running that issue around with an SDA for a while and see what sort of odd responses you get!

 

[Pythons]

loneviking:

Michael, in SDA theology IS Christ and appears both pre and post incarnate in the Bible. (I’m not defending this belief, just clearing this up). I would be very curious as to where you got the idea that deity was conferred on Michael? I learned my theology from some very good SDA theologians and I never heard that from them.

I also don’t recall ever seeing a quote from EGW that it was impossible for God to die. That would be in direct contradiction to the SDA belief that there is no soul, and there is no hell at present. In turn, that means the Christ had no conciousness after death, and contrary to what some read in the Bible, He did not descend into Hell

Ellen White
Lucifer in heaven, before his rebellion, was a high and exalted angel, next in honor to God’s dear Son. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing a powerful intellect. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. A special light beamed in his countenance and shone around him brighter and more beautiful than around the other angels; yet Christ, God’s dear Son, had the pre-eminence over all the angelic host. He was one with the Father before the angels were created. Lucifer was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which DEVOLVED on Christ alone. {SR 13.1}

Devolved

1. Transfer or delegate (power) to a LOWER level, esp. from central government to local or regional administration.
2. (of duties or responsibility) Pass to (a body or person at a LOWER level).

As for it being “impossible” for true diety to die.

Ellen White, 21MR 418.5
"Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person–the Man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; THAT would have been impossible

I do realize that the SDA’s advocate soul sleeping and as such they believe while Christ was dead…
…That He was in a state of being as if He never existed in the 1st place.
…From the point of death until the Resurrection.
…My points have nothing to do with that.

The issue as I see it is all about SDA teaching that it was A) possible for Jesus to sin &…
…B) “Had” Jesus sinned He would have lost His Salvation and eternally cease to exist.
…Because SDA’s reject the Spirit living on the following is one of many clear examples of Ellen White’s teachings on this matter.

Ellen White
If one single sin had tainted His character the stone would NEVER have been rolled away from the door of His rocky chamber, and the world with its burden of guilt would have perished

&

Ellen White, Review and Herald, Jan 14, 1909
We are to be partakers of knowledge. As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven

In the SDA rubric Michael the archangel was made out of the actual “substance” or “essence” OF God…
…While Lucifer the archangel was made out of nothing by God to be as close to God as possible.
…Therefore God was required to sit Michael down on the throne and call a general assembly in heaven.
…To delegate the authority that SHOULD be Christ’s by His birthright.

This was what actually caused Lucifer to pop his cork according to SDA teaching…
…Lucifer wanted to get the special attention and get the highest honors like Christ did.

Ellen White
The Lord has shown me that Satan was once an honored angel in heaven, next to Jesus Christ. His countenance was mild, expressive of happiness like the other angels. His forehead was high and broad, and showed great intelligence. His form was perfect. He had a noble, majestic bearing. And I saw that when God said to his Son, Let us make man in our image, Satan was jealous of Jesus. He wished to be consulted concerning the formation of man. He was filled with envy, jealousy and hatred. He wished to be the highest in heaven, next to God, and receive the highest honors. UNTIL this time all heaven was in order, harmony and perfect subjection to the government of God. {1SG 17.1}

Sorry for not being more clear in my previous post to ya loneviking…
…Hope that helps clear it up a bit.

 

[loneviking]

Pythons, not looking for a fight, but I can tell you that your conclusions are not in line with SDA thought and teaching. What book is (SR) referring to? The quote that you have there is in line with what I learned except for the last line:

Lucifer was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which DEVOLVED on Christ alone. {SR 13.1}

I have never heard an SDA theologian, or any of my pastors, say that Lucifer assumed command in any way, shape or form. Lucifer, so the story goes, wanted to be equal with God, and you can see that in Ezekial 38.

The other quote is also interesting as it too is close, but not quite, to what I’ve read and was taught. This is why Lucifer was angry to rebel:

And I saw that when God said to his Son, Let us make man in our image, Satan was jealous of Jesus. He wished to be consulted concerning the formation of man. He was filled with envy, jealousy and hatred

It wasn’t because of Micheal. Your quote:

Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven

Satan was the highest angel, the covering cherub. The highest being created next to the Trinity. The quote is not saying that Christ was an angel. There shouldn’t be a comma after ‘was’. It should read that ‘Satan was next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven’.

Again, I’m not trying to defend SDA beliefs, but just trying to keep the record straight as to what those beliefs are.

 

[Pythons]

Pythons, not looking for a fight, but I can tell you that your conclusions are not in line with SDA thought and teaching. What book is (SR) referring to? The quote that you have there is in line with what I learned except for the last line:

I never though you were looking for a fight…
…My apoloogies if I came over that way.

The conclusions are not mine - they are Ellen White’s…
…I’ve only pointed them out.

SR = ‘The Story of Redemption’ - one of Ellen’s many books. The same quote can also be found in Great Controversy in the chapter “the Fall of Satan” & in the book “Lift Him up”. As well as in the “Signs of the Times” Jan 9, 1879.

The paradox within SDAism is that when speaking to members of other Christian faiths they are QUICK to affirm they believe in the Trinity…
…Yet when in discussion of something else it becomes loud and clear it’s NOT the Trinity of Orthodox Christianity.
…Such as Christ having a diety ONLY on the conditions He didn’t sin.

Perhaps you are familiar with “Charles Longacre” who was a famous SDA that did some legal work on the SDA church behalf…
…Observe what he says below.

Charles S Longacre
If it were impossible for the Son of God to make a mistake or commit a sin, then His coming into this world and subjecting Himself to temptations **were all a farce **and mere mockery. If it were possible for Him to yield to temptation and fall into sin, then He MUST have risked heaven and His very existence, and EVEN all eternity. That is exactly what the Scriptures and the Spirit of Prophecy say Christ, the Son of God did do when He came to work out for us a plan of salvation from the curse of sin.

If Christ “risked all,” EVEN His ETERNAL EXISTENCE in heaven, then there was a possibility of His being overcome by sin, and if overcome by sin, He would have gone into Jo*seph’s tomb and neither THAT tomb nor any other tomb would EVER have been opened. All would have been lost and HE would have suffered “eternal loss,” the loss of ALL He ever possessed &; His DIVINITY and His humanity and heaven itself would have been "lost & eternally lost

It was possible for one of the God-head to be lost, and eternally lost - and IF that had happened, and it WAS possible to happen, God, the Father, would still have remained as the One and only absolute and living God, reigning supreme over all the unfallen worlds, but with all the human race blotted out of existence on this earth. The Deity of Christ’, paper presented to the Bible Research Fellowship Angwin, California January 1947, page 13 & 14)

loneviking:

I have never heard an SDA theologian, or any of my pastors, say that Lucifer assumed command in any way, shape or form. Lucifer, so the story goes, wanted to be equal with God, and you can see that in Ezekial 38.

I agree, Lucifer wanted to be equal with God, according to the Scriptures…
…However that was NOT what Ellen White taught.
…Lucifer’s beef was that he thought it unfair that Michael the archangel was exalted past him.

Ellen White said it.

loneviking:

The other quote is also interesting as it too is close, but not quite, to what I’ve read and was taught. This is why Lucifer was angry to rebel:

If what you’ve read from people other than Ellen White and what you’ve heard from SDA’s is similar or “close” to what Ellen White said…
…And you have the actual quote of what Ellen White said.
…What does the difference between the two tell you?

loneviking:

It wasn’t because of Micheal. Your quote:

Satan was the highest angel, the covering cherub. The highest being created next to the Trinity. The quote is not saying that Christ was an angel. There shouldn’t be a comma after ‘was’. It should read that ‘Satan was next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven’.

Again, I’m not trying to defend SDA beliefs, but just trying to keep the record straight as to what those beliefs are.

I didn’t add the comma…
…See page 8 of the following archive.
adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH19090114-V86-02__B.pdf#search=%22 the highest angel in heaven %22&view=fit

 

[loneviking]

Pythons, you have definitely caught on to the fact that the SDA trinity is not the Trinity of the orthodox Christian!

And that is one of the toughest things to get across to most pastors (and Christians) when dealing with SDA’s. They say the right things, but the meaning that they have—the way that they define what to us are common Christian terms, is something very different. When you study with an SDA, you have to explore and define every single little detail because their theological roadmap is very different from anything you’ve ever seen before. And, at it’s heart, their theology is right from EG White. The Bible must conform too her writings, and that is what makes the SDA church a cult.

 

[Pythons]

Pythons, you have definitely caught on to the fact that the SDA trinity is not the Trinity of the orthodox Christian!

And that is one of the toughest things to get across to most pastors (and Christians) when dealing with SDA’s. They say the right things, but the meaning that they have—the way that they define what to us are common Christian terms, is something very different. When you study with an SDA, you have to explore and define every single little detail because their theological roadmap is very different from anything you’ve ever seen before. And, at it’s heart, their theology is right from EG White. The Bible must conform too her writings, and that is what makes the SDA church a cult.

Exactly, you’ve just summarized my experience to an absolute “T” !
…It’s like if you ask one if they believe in the Trinity and they say “yeah, Father, Son and Holy Spirit - the Trinity”.

Then a few weeks into the “Prophecy Study” they invited you to, you hear them mentioning how Christ could have lost His eternal Salvation…
…Then you say something does not compute - ya go and spent a bunch of time on their archive search engine.
…And discover a theology that’s as alien to the truth as it gets.

The beef I have is that they hold these “Explore The Prophetic” ( that’s what they call it ) programs with lots of razzle dazzle…
…And toward the middle of it they flat out say the Pope is part of the Antichrist power.
…And that a Pope stole the real Sabbath and traded it for Sunday.
…And now that you know this what are you gonna do about it!

I had that experience myself and after digging into the carcas which is SDA theology…
…I discovered a most maggoty mess and with all the Catholics who have been tricked into this foul mess.
…I intend on doing my part to get the word out what the REAL teachings of this Church is.

And to think that they have the gall to trick uneducated people into believing the Catholic Church has teaching against the Bible…
…And is the Beast power and Antichrist all rolled into one.
…While they still maintain a Christ that is less than One True God!
…WOW!

Anyway, you boiled it down better than I could have…
…Thanks viking!

 

[westerly]

I’ve learned a lot in this thread, and it makes me understand why my wife (who is an SDA) shies away from Ellen White, and never discusses her with me. As a Catholic, we do go back-and-forth quite a bit, of course.
Practically speaking, I never understood the SDA’s contention that the Catholic church would persecute Adventists in the end days. To me, it seems laughable, in that Catholics in the US are neither powerful nor particularly loved by the mainstream community. The fate of the one practicing Catholic president comes to mind.

One thought, however, as to the adherence to this belief. The SDA’s are growing rapidly in Latin America, and among latinos in the US as well. Specifically, Brazil has been fertile ground for the SDA’s. Within their own boundaries, Brazilians have a culturally pervasive distaste for converts, having a heavy Catholic flavor pervasive within the larger culture. However, Brazil’s Catholic church is also liberal, openly corrupt, and rebellious. As such, there is growing contempt for Catholicism, restrained only by the need for appearances of orthodoxy among the population. In that environment, Adventism’s reactionary nature is flourishing, as it focuses on community worship and rigid anti-establishment dogma, feeding both the need for social acceptance and a sense of struggle.
The US’s latin immigrant influx has created fertile ground for evangelization for the SDA. Couple this with other bad examples of the inability of Catholicism to deal with impinging paganism (Santa muerte, and Candomble comes to mind) in other predominantly Catholic latin nations spells good news for the raw numbers of potential SDA groups.
I concur with the earlier poster who mentioned the particular devotion that Adventists have regarding anti-Catholicism. I’ve noticed personally that the anti-Catholic rhetoric is kept to a minimum in mixed meetings, but there’s a lot of indoctrination among the congregants- the nature of the anti-Catholic messages I get from my wife’s friends are too similar in context and wording to be anything but sermon content.