All about Seventh Day Adventists and Catholics

[Pythons]

I’ve learned a lot in this thread, and it makes me understand why my wife (who is an SDA) shies away from Ellen White, and never discusses her with me. As a Catholic, we do go back-and-forth quite a bit, of course.
Practically speaking, I never understood the SDA’s contention that the Catholic church would persecute Adventists in the end days. To me, it seems laughable, in that Catholics in the US are neither powerful nor particularly loved by the mainstream community. The fate of the one practicing Catholic president comes to mind.

One thought, however, as to the adherence to this belief. The SDA’s are growing rapidly in Latin America, and among latinos in the US as well. Specifically, Brazil has been fertile ground for the SDA’s. Within their own boundaries, Brazilians have a culturally pervasive distaste for converts, having a heavy Catholic flavor pervasive within the larger culture. However, Brazil’s Catholic church is also liberal, openly corrupt, and rebellious. As such, there is growing contempt for Catholicism, restrained only by the need for appearances of orthodoxy among the population. In that environment, Adventism’s reactionary nature is flourishing, as it focuses on community worship and rigid anti-establishment dogma, feeding both the need for social acceptance and a sense of struggle.
The US’s latin immigrant influx has created fertile ground for evangelization for the SDA. Couple this with other bad examples of the inability of Catholicism to deal with impinging paganism (Santa muerte, and Candomble comes to mind) in other predominantly Catholic latin nations spells good news for the raw numbers of potential SDA groups.
I concur with the earlier poster who mentioned the particular devotion that Adventists have regarding anti-Catholicism. I’ve noticed personally that the anti-Catholic rhetoric is kept to a minimum in mixed meetings, but there’s a lot of indoctrination among the congregants- the nature of the anti-Catholic messages I get from my wife’s friends are too similar in context and wording to be anything but sermon content.

What you’ve said about Latin America is so true & it’s because most all of us have failed to “know our Faith”…
…I was a prime example of that for YEARS and as is always the case, that minute a person feels the call to know God better.
…The wolves are usually right there waiting to strike and scatter the sheep.

The Jehovah’s Witnesses are right there along with the SDA’s in their feverish work in Latin America…
…And if a person is not grounded in 101 Christian Doctrine.
…An average SDA or JW can turn a Catholic into a pretzel in about 10 minutes.
…Leaving the Catholic with the impression those folks “know their Bible” AND are right.

Then, subsequent to some razzle dazzle prophetic meetings the real programming starts…
…And the individual is keep so busy with the SDA or JW interpretation of prophecy.
…There is no time or chance for the person to vett the teachings.
…Within a year or so the “once” Catholic will be looking toward heaven clutching a Bible & affirming Christ** could have **sinned and lost His salvation.

Ellen White
**I saw **that God had NOT changed the Sabbath, for He never changes. **But the Pope had changed it **from the seventh to the first day of the week: for he was to change time and laws.A Word to the Little Flock, p. 18.

Ellen White
In the holiest I saw an ark; … In the ark was the golden pot of manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tables of stone which folded together like a book. Jesus opened them, and I saw the ten commandments written on them with the finger of God. On one table were four, and on the other six. The four on the first table shone brighter than the other six. But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all; for the Sabbath was set apart to be kept in honor of God’s holy name. The holy Sabbath looked glorious–a halo of glory was all around it. Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 32, 33.

Ellen White
I saw all that “would not receive the mark of the Beast, and of his Image, in their foreheads or in their hands,” could not buy or sell. O REV. 13: 15–17.] I saw that the number (666) of the Image Beast was made up; P REV. 13: 18.] and that it was the Beast that changed the Sabbath, and the Image Beast had followed on after, and kept the Pope’s, and not God’s Sabbath. And all we were required to do, was to give up God’s Sabbath, and keep the Pope’s, and then we should have the mark of the Beast, and of his image

In the SDA rubric Matthew 5,18 is taken to mean that since the world “never ends” God’s holy law will never end…
…With the 10 Commandments being in SDA mind the only real “law of God”.
…The Saturday Sabbath will never terminate - God Himself is required to keep it, or else.

From this the SDA follows the prophetic utterance of Ellen White that Jesus didn’t come to “fulfill” the law and terminate the 1st Covenant…
…Instead Christ came for the express purpose to “Vindicate” God’s Holy law of which the Sabbath is the most important part of that law.
…And a Christian, if they are to be saved must also continue to Vindicate the Saturday Sabbath.

I’ll pray for you Westerley and your wife - if you take it slow and use Scripture and reasoning…
…The Holy Spirit will do the rest.

God Bless.

 

[westerly]

Thank you, Pythons- I’m actually heading from the US down to South America on Wednesday. Should be interesting to live among the Adventists down there for a few weeks. The biblical knowledge base of the Adventists is certainly impressive, in terms of being able to quote and discuss biblical passages- their adherence to sola scriptura and concurrent interpretation of the passages referenced, however, just seems contrary to me.

 

[Pythons]

Thank you, Pythons- I’m actually heading from the US down to South America on Wednesday. Should be interesting to live among the Adventists down there for a few weeks. The biblical knowledge base of the Adventists is certainly impressive, in terms of being able to quote and discuss biblical passages- their adherence to sola scriptura and concurrent interpretation of the passages referenced, however, just seems contrary to me.

May God go with you Westerly!

I believe that the key in reaching them is simply knowing the Scriptures yourself and the context they are in…
…Like the JW’s the SDA’s are programmed to see those texts within ONLY the context of the SDA apologetics fed to them.

In a gloating way they will produce statements from Catholics which say the Catholic Church changed the sabbath by it’s power…
…They obsess over these types of statements while ignoring the same article they are getting it from.
…When it StateS that “this power” was given them via Christ Himself.

In effect what they do is attempt to paint the Catholic Church in such a way so as to make you believe…
…The Apostles had nothing at all to do with Christians holding Mass on Sunday.

When I get the chance to talk to SDA’s ( after they show me these quotes ) I always ask them…
…"IF you believe that the Catholic Church “transferred” ( changed ) the Sabbath to Sunday because the Catholic Church said so - WHY don’t you also believe the Catholic Church when it says IN THE SAME ARTICLE that the Apostles were CATHOLIC and THEY DID IT?

Usually that’s when they get an odd look on their face and say something about needing to go ask their pastor this question…
…It works the same way with the JW’s.

I think the Trinity issue is the holy grail of showing SDA’s they are participating in a false religion…
…Once you demonstrate to them in a simple clear way that according to Ellen White Jesus was NOT God.
…That puts the seed in their mind that perhaps not everything they have been fed is correct doctrine.

 

[KathleenGee]

The Church of South America needs to restore faith through the Rosary…it fights heresy…Our Blessed Mother does great work in bringing Catholics back to the faith.

 

[Pythons]

The Church of South America needs to restore faith through the Rosary…it fights heresy…Our Blessed Mother does great work in bringing Catholics back to the faith.

Indeed, Mary is the destoryer of heresies…
…“Mother of God” pretty much sums up the problem the cults have her.
…I.E. A Christ which had “CONIDITIONAL DIETY” such as the Mormon, SDA & JW Christ can’t be “God”.

 

[Protector]

Jesus said prior to being tempted “OF” or “BY” the Devil that the Devil was coming…
…But had NOTHING in Him.
John 14,30
“Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, **and hath nothing in me” **

Jesus explicitly said the Devil had NOTHING in Him…
…Therefore Jesus was tempted ‘of’ or ‘by’ the Devil externally.

Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit and therefore had, “Put on the whole armour of God that…(He was)… able to stand against the wiles of the Devil” (Eph.6:11. KJV) Bracketed content mine.

Protector.

 

[CopticChristian]

Thank you for starting the thread. I am a SDA for 2. 5 years . Your last statement is sincere… may the Holy Spirit open our hearts and minds and allow the truth of His word be made known.

The SDA believes that the one and only true faith is** that by the grace of God we will be saved by faith in Jesus Christ. No mater what we do, whatever “works” we do , we can never do anything ourselves to be saved, it is a gift from God. **Jesus Christ is the head of the church. The only authority of the SDA is that of the bible. No one person has authority over the church.

written with love

Just so we are on the same page, the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church believes and has taught this since Christ founded the Church.

 

[CopticChristian]

**Response - Hey, I pray that all is well with you. Nice to hear from you. This is the kind of post I don’t mind responding to… written with honest questions and not with an attitude. Your statements above are a fair assessment.

Not directed to you Benedict, but to others who read this thread. I was never implying that; most, high ranking officials of the Catholic Church left the Catholic faith and transfered their membership to the Millwright movement. I clarify that there were people from many different denominations that believed Miller in 1844. These people did not necessarily leave their denomination. For example, I have talked with many Catholic people who do not believe it is necessary to confess their sins to a priest, yet they still attend the Catholic Church and believe in the other doctrines of the church.

This will be my last post on the topic of Mr. Miller.

written with love**

Catholic priests like Zwingli, Luther & Knox denied the Eucharit and did not believe that it was necessary to confess to priests and they were priests and they chose not to attend Catholic Churches and believe in other doctrines.

 

[CopticChristian]

**Response - I agree with most of your above comments. I just read in many posts by Catholics that if I do not attend the Catholic Church I might not be saved. I do not believe my salvation is based on whether I believe in hell, purgatory, that I have to confess my sins to a priest, etc. **By the grace of God I am saved through faith, not of my works, but that of the Lord working in me. There is nothing I can do to be saved.****written with love

This would make you a good Catholic.

 

[CopticChristian]

**This is in response to post 39 - Everything that man says has to be measured to the bible. If the word of man is not in the word of God throw it out. (Isa 8:20) To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

written with love **

For this to be true it would have to be true for all times and for all. The bible has not been around for all time.

 

[CopticChristian]

Response - Yes, God wants one church However, people will be saved from other denominations that are not Catholic, or SDA…
written with love

This also would make you a good Catholic. Innocence is different than Ignorance.

 

[CopticChristian]

barboza21;7935051:

BTTG;7928911:

Revelations 12

**Response - I did a study a while ago on Rev 12.

Chapter about the war of light and darkness – God and Satan

About the women

(Rev 12:1)
Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a **woman ( true churchWoman ****

= Church Eph.5 22-24 / 2 Cor.11:2( writing to church at Corth.) / Jer.2:23, 6:2 / Is. 54:5-6 / Hos.2:19-20

• see ) clothed with the sun ( light of Christ- opposite of the women in 17:4 who was arrayed in gaudy garments carrying a cup of abominations), with the moon (old testament- types and shadows, which were eclipsed by the revelations that came through Christ) under her feet( subjection – control) , and on her head a garland (crown-a victors crown - ) of twelve stars ( 12 disciples – leadership of the church in the NT).

The woman represents the true church of Jesus. “I Have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman." Jeremiah 6:2. “And say unto Zion, Thou art my people.” Isaiah 51:16.
The sun represents Jesus, His gospel, and His righteousness. “The Lord God is a sun.” Psalms 84:11. ((Mal 4:2) But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Without Jesus there is no salvation (Acts 4:12). More than anything else, Jesus wants His church to overflow with His presence and glory.

“The moon under her feet” represents the sacrificial system of the Old Testament. As the moon reflects the light of the sun, so the sacrificial system was helpful spiritually only as it reflected light from the Messiah to come (Hebrews 10:1).

Sun , moon and stars give light to the earth – women is clothed with natural beauty, as opposed to women in Rev 17

. The “crown of twelve stars” represents the work of the 12 disciples, which crowned the early years of the New Testament church.
The “third of the stars that were cast down” represent a third of Lucifer’s angles when he faught with Michael. Revelation 12:9; Luke 10:18; Isaiah 14:12)
The dragon was working through pagan Rome at the time of Jesus’ birth. The ruler who tried to kill Jesus was Harod.

(Rev 12:2)
**Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth. ( This was talking about Jesus- the church/God’s people cried out because ** king Harod was trying to kill baby Jesus)

(Rev 12:3)
And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon ( Satan)having seven heads(and ten horns (horns is military power) , and seven diadems(greek meaning is crown- crown means political power) on his heads. ( The Romans, through the works of Satan, killed Jesus, at the same time tried to abolish Christianity. After Jesus died now Satan through false churches is trying to conquer God/Christianity)

(Rev 12:4)
His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth ( Dan. 8:10) . And the dragon( Satan ) stood before the woman ( church-religion-God’s word )who was ready to give birth, to devour ( destroy infant Jesus) her Child as soon as it was born (Harod – king was killing the first born).

(Rev 12:5)
She bore a male Child (Jesus) who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron (Rev. 2:18-29 is talking about the corrupt church, not a church during the 1000 years. Therefore, vs 27, is Jesus ruling with an iron rod – Rev 2:27, 12:5, 19:15. also see Psa. Passages next) Christ has the authority to rule

((Psa 2:8)
Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And the ends of the earth for Your possession.

(Psa 2:9)
You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’ "

And her Child was caught ( representation of Jesus’ ascension to heaven)(Heb 10:12) But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,

up to God and His throne.

Verses 2 thru 5 is the life, death and resurrection of Jesus.

Jesus had the power to rule - (Mat 28:18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

continued next post

For a while there you had me going. Your interpretation was Catholic up until you said the woman was the Church and then gave birth to the Church. Catholics would say Mary is the woman and gave birth to Jesus. Jesus is the Church.

 

[CopticChristian]

**Response - Can you biblically prove that these statements by EG White are false?

If I may take a moment to discuss how Jesus took on the form of a human and not on the nature of the unfallen Adam. Jesus came to the earth in human flesh, he was the seed of Abraham. He was not in the form of a spiritual angle, nor did He have the powers…… “For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham” (Hebrews 2:16). How could He partake of Abraham’s seed if He took on Him the nature of unfallen Adam? Jesus did not take on some sinless nature such as angels or holy Adam, but He had the same nature that Abraham’s children possessed. They had sin-full fleshly bodies and minds. So did Jesus.

One can be subject to sin and not be guilty of it. He was tempted in the same way we are, yet He never once even thought about sin. He remained undefiled by sin and was always totally pure and holy. Jesus was made like us.
“Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God” (Hebrews 2:17).

Paul declared that Jesus “was made of the seed of David according to the flesh” (Romans 1:3). It would be wrong to say that these words are to be interpreted to mean that Christ inherited a holy, unfallen nature from Mary. Whatever David’s seed was like after the flesh, our Lord partook of the same. All of those descendants of David, except one, committed personal sins. Jesus, like all others, inherited the nature of David after the flesh, but He did not yield to the inherent weaknesses of that nature. Although tempted in all ways like us, He did not respond to any of those temptations. Jesus used His spiritual power against Satan.
Jesus relied on His Father’s strength, He demonstrated the victory that is possible for all of David’s seed after the flesh to experience.

We also read, "Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same" (Hebrews 2:14). The body of Christ took on the same flesh and blood as man.   HE—ALSO—HIMSELF—LIKEWISE. These four words are used consecutively even though they are repetitive and redundant. WHY? In order to impress us that Jesus really did enter into the SAME nature man possessed.

" Doesn’t this tell us without question the kind of nature Christ possessed? Did Adam have any children born before he sinned? Not one! The fact is that all the children who have ever been born in the world have inherited the same fallen nature of Adam, because they were all born after Adam sinned. In Hebrews it reads that Jesus “himself likewise took part of the same.” The same what? The same flesh and blood as children inherit from their parents. What kind of flesh do children inherit from their parents? Only sinful flesh. Has any other kind of flesh except sinful flesh ever been known among the descendants of Adam? None whatsoever. If Jesus partook of the same flesh and blood as the children, it had to be sinful flesh and blood.

Jesus was fully God and He was fully man. Jesus could draw upon either of these natures while living here in the flesh. But Jesus did not use His divine power to save Himself from the weaknesses and temptations inherited from His human ancestry. He chose to live His life here as a man in the same way we have to live it. To save Himself from sin and the flesh of the body, Jesus depended constantly and solely upon the power of His Father. It was by this, that He overcame the devil, had victory over all temptations, and lived a life of perfect obedience.

Jesus never fell to the ways of the flesh. He set an example of the kind of victory that may come to every child of Adam through depending on the Father.
Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness to use His divine power to satisfy His hunger. Satan knew that Jesus had the power of deity to work that miracle. His hope was that he could entice Christ to draw upon His divinity for relief. Why would that have been such a triumph for Satan? He could have used that to prove his way that God required an obedience that no man in the flesh could produce. If Jesus had failed to overcome satan in the same nature we have, and by the same means available to us, the devil would have proven that obedience is indeed an impossible requirement. Satan understood very well that Jesus could not use His divine power to save Himself and to save man at the same time.

If Jesus actually inherited the nature of Adam, then why didn't He sin like the rest of Adam's descendants? Because He was filled with the Holy Spirit from birth and possessed a fully surrendered will and sanctified human nature.

some words and thoughts above were help from a friend.

(had to remove some quotes from above due to character limits)

written with love**

You might want to consider rereading the letter to the Romans. Paul makes the point to the Judaizing Christians that they are not descendants of Abraham rather descendant of Adam that they have inherited sin from. For by one man sin entered into the world. Jesus is the new adam.

 

[CopticChristian]

Ok. So history documents this. Can you please give me ~specifics~ to back your statement up? Not looking for trouble or challenges - just want to see what you (and others) consider proof that the Catholic Church wrote and assembled the Bible.
THanks -
Annie

The Holy Spirit wrote the Bible. The Catholic Church recognized it and canonized it. Here is the Council of Rome 382. I have a copy as a PDF file. I could not upload it.

The Canon of Sacred Scripture 2

[From the same decree and the acts of the same Roman Synod]
Likewise it has been said: Now indeed we must treat of the divine 84
scriptures , what the universal Catholic Church accepts and what she
ought to shun.

The order of the Old Testament begins here: Genesis one book, Exodus
one book, Leviticus one book, Numbers one book, Deuteronomy one
book, Josue Nave one book, Judges one book, Ruth one book, Kings four
books, Paralipomenon two books, Psalms one book, Solomon three books,
Proverbs one book, Ecclesiastes one book, Canticle of Canticles one book,
likewise Wisdom one book, Ecclesiasticus one book.
Likewise the order of the Prophets. Isaias one book, Jeremias one book,
with Ginoth, that is, with his lamentations, Ezechiel one book, Daniel
one book, Osee one book, Micheas one book, Joel one book, Abdias one
book, Jonas one book, Nahum one book, Habacuc one book, Sophonias
one book, Aggeus one book, Zacharias one book, Malachias one book.
Likewise the order of the histories. Job one book, Tobias one book,
Esdras two books, Esther one book, Judith one book, Machabees two
books.
Likewise the order of the writings of the New and eternal Testament,
which the holy and Catholic Church supports. Of the Gospels, according
to Matthew one book, according to Mark one book, according to Luke
one book, according to John one book.
The Epistles of Paul [the apostle] in number fourteen. To the Romans
one, to the Corinthians two, to the Ephesians one, to the Thessalonians
two, to the Galatians one, to the Philippians one, to the Colossians one,
to Timothy two, to Titus one, to Philemon one, to the Hebrews one.
Likewise the Apocalypse of John, one book. And the Acts of the Apostles
one book.
Likewise the canonical epistles in number seven. Of Peter the Apostle
two epistles, of James the Apostle one epistle, of John the Apostle one
epistle, of another John, the presbyter, two epistles, of Jude the Zealot,
the Apostle one epistle, see n. 162 ff.1
The canon of the New Testament ends here.

That should do it for the Council of Rome

 

[CopticChristian]

We may be getting off topic…so you may want to start your own thread on this.

There was only one church in existence for the first 1500 years…the Catholic Church. All the writers were Catholics. Through it’s action, the CC compiled the books of the Bible.

See Council of Nicea (AD 325) and Synod of Hippo and Council of Carthage.

I would like you to look for this…Provice me the chapter and verse in the Bible were St. Mark claims authorship of the Gospel of Mark? (minus the table of contents and title-these were put in by the publisher)

Here is the Council of Carthage.

COUNCIL OF CARTHAGE (III) 397
The Canon of the Sacred Scripture3

. But the Canonical Scriptures are: Genesis, Exo-dus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books
of Kings, Paralipomenon two books, Job, the Psalter of David, five books
of Solomon, twelve books of the Prophets, Isaias, Jeremias, Daniel,
Ezechiel, Tobias, Judith, Esther, two books of Esdras, two books of the
Machabees. Moreover, of the New Testament: Four books of the Gospels,
the Acts of the Apostles one book, thirteen epistles of Paul the Apostle, one
of the same to the Hebrews, two of Peter, three 1 of John, one of James,
one of Jude, the Apocalypse of John. Thus [it has been decided] that the
Church beyond the sea may be consulted regarding the confirmation of
that canon; also that it be permitted to read the sufferings of the martyrs,
when their anniversary days are celebrated.

 

[CopticChristian]

**Response - If I am understanding this discussion correctly, Catholics believe they wrote the NT as per the authors of Matthew, Mark, Luke, Peter, etc. I believe the aforementioned were “Christians”, followers of Christ and were of the “church” of Christ. Yes, you could also say they belonged to the “catholic church”, regarding the Greek word for “Catholic” as “universal”. In saying that, Paul, Matthew, etc., I believe, did not belong to the “Catholic church” as we know it today. They belonged to the universal church, the one church, the Christian church, who were in acceptance to the whole work of Christ, in which Christ is the head of the church then and now.

Therefore, Peter, Paul, John, etc,. were Christians and not of the Catholic denomination at their time.

written with love.**

Their is no Catholic denomination. All other Protestant beliefs incuding 7th day adventists denominated.

 

[CopticChristian]

To be fair, it isn’t just SDA’s that do this, although they have a pretty systematic anti-catholic teaching. But, there are other protestant groups and writers just as virulently anti-Catholic such as Jack Chick and Dave Hunt, the author of the book ‘A Woman Rides the Beast’.

Further, the Catholic church doesn’t help it’s image either when there are dozens of priests being either prosecuted and/or defrocked for all sorts of nasty sexual behavior…behavior that was covered up by the bishops and cardinals of the church. For some of us raised in these anti-Catholic enviroments, just being around a priest gives us the willies, wondering what evil they are up too.

It’s going to take a long time and a lot of effort to ever bridge the Catholic/Protestant divide.

Zwingli was an admitted fornicator prior to the reformation and Knox, Zwingli married shortly after. Luther married a nun. Image is everything.

 

[PRmerger]

For a while there you had me going. Your interpretation was Catholic up until you said the woman was the Church and then gave birth to the Church.

I had never heard this interpretation of Revelation before. An entity giving birth to* itself?* That sound like some kind of deviant aberration of nature, no?

 

[CopticChristian]

I had never heard this interpretation of Revelation before. An entity giving birth to* itself?* That sound like some kind of deviant aberration of nature, no?

Fascinating isn’t it. I believe that too many Protestants, cults that portray themselves as Christian using the bible and Sola Scriptura have given birth to aberrant thought with the Book of Revalation. It is amazing:thumbsup:.

In all my years I looked at Revelation, read Revelation and when Protestants approached me like they understood it, I thought whoa. In consideration of their inability to explain and understand other issues I didn’t take this seriously and in time I never found the use of this book as they use it palatable.

 

[CopticChristian]

I had never heard this interpretation of Revelation before. An entity giving birth to* itself?* That sound like some kind of deviant aberration of nature, no?

Ameboid.