All about Seventh Day Adventists and Catholics

[PRmerger]

Let me ask Pythons, do you think that it was God’s purpose that man sin?

The Church’s answer is that this was man’s free will, but that it was “O happy fault!”

WHERE SIN ABOUNDED, GRACE ABOUNDED ALL THE MORE.

 

[Pythons]

Let me ask Pythons, do you think that it was God’s purpose that man sin?

It was God’s purpose to “create man” absolutely however it was not the purpose of God that man would live apart from God’s will…
…Like PRmerger has said, God created man as a creature of free will.

2 Timothy 2,12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he CANNOT deny himself.

If “God” sinned and lost His Salvation and forever ceased to exist ( as the SDA rubric requires )…
…It would first require that God denied Himself.

Zeph 3,5
The just LORD is in the midst thereof; he will NOT do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no shame

 

[Richard_Kastner]

It was God’s purpose to “create man” absolutely however it was not the purpose of God that man would live apart from God’s will…
…Like PRmerger has said, God created man as a creature of free will.

So, It was God’spurpose that man live according to His will?

2 Timothy 2,12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he CANNOT deny himself.

If “God” sinned and lost His Salvation and forever ceased to exist ( as the SDA rubric requires )…
…It would first require that God denied Himself.

Zeph 3,5
The just LORD is in the midst thereof; he will NOT do iniquity: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light, he faileth not; but the unjust knoweth no shame

So what you are saying then is that Christ did not come in the likeness of sinful flesh like every other man and that He did not have free will ie. the ability to sin and lose eternal life? Is that right?

 

[PRmerger]

So what you are saying then is that Christ did not come in the likeness of sinful flesh like every other man and that He did not have free will ie. the ability to sin and lose eternal life? Is that right?

Having free will is not consonant with necessarily sinning, Richard.

Take this analogy: Picture a man living in a cabin in the woods on a hill. From his elevated position he can see the origin of a river. A town is dumping sewage into the river. Downstream there is a family living near the river. From their position they cannot see that a town is dumping sewage into the river, so they drink from that river.

However, the man, from his vantage point, can see that the river is polluted–**and while he certainly has the free will to drink from the river–has no desire to do so.
**
That, I think, is a wonderful way to portray the fact that there is no contradiction between having free will and never sinning.

 

[PRmerger]

So, It was God’spurpose that man live according to His will?

Yes. Catholicism teaches that there is a difference between God’s antecedent will, and God’s consequent will. The antecedent will is, essentially and inevitably, fulfilled. The consequent will, however, is that which has its origins in our choices.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
So what you are saying then is that Christ did not come in the likeness of sinful flesh like every other man and that He did not have free will ie. the ability to sin and lose eternal life? Is that right?

Having free will is not consonant with necessarily sinning, Richard.

Never said it was PR. Read my post again. Merely trying to clarify Pythons position.

 

[PRmerger]

Never said it was PR. Read my post again. Merely trying to clarify Pythons position.

My apologies. Then I am not understanding your question. What about Python’s position needs clarification? That Jesus had free will yet never sinned?

 

[Pythons]

PRmerger gave a very good answer in what he said…
…I would have said the same thing - however in not as good of a way.
Richard Kastner:

So what you are saying then is that Christ did not come in the likeness of sinful flesh like every other man and that He did not have free will ie. the ability to sin and lose eternal life? Is that right?

No, that’s not at all what I’m saying and attempting to help you see…
…The question is phrased in an Adventist premise which supposes.
…That the likeness of sinful flesh IS sinful flesh.

Jesus came to us in the “likeness” of sinful flesh NOT in sinful flesh…
…All the Apostles of Christ were absolutely “in sinful flesh”.
…He ( Christ ) was in “all” ways like us APART from sin.

Hebrews 4,14
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin

The meaning of “infirmities” is explicit and describes the pains and ills of human flesh…
…Such as getting hurt, sick, feeling hungry, tired, ability to die, etc.

Strong’s G769
1) want of strength, weakness, infirmity

a) of the body

1) its native weakness and frailty

2) feebleness of health or sickness

Jesus ( God ) suffered all the effects of our infirmities related to our frail bodies and in all ways was like us APART from sin…
…So I can honestly say Christ came in the likeness of sinful flesh and that He did NOT ever have the possibillity of sin.

Jesus was only tempted / tested “by” OR “of” the Devil…
…That the Christ “would NOT sin” was simply another test or “proof’ that Jesus was the Christ.
…Same as the Prophets saying the Christ would be born a Virgin, called out of Egypt, 'would not sin”, etc.

 

[Pythons]

I was originally asked to show Scriptures which demonstrated the impossibility of Christ sinning and loosing His Salvation…
…I followed through with this request by posting those Scriptures.
…To the point I started to feel ill from attaching the Adventist premise subsequent to those Scriptures.

After it was established - that there was eternally no possibility of God ceasing to exist…
…Another concept of “free will” is introduced whereas it is implied that since man has free will.
…Christ would, by default, also have free will because He came in the likness of sinful flesh.

This is generally the mechanism by which error is protected at all costs…
…For a “Bible Only” fundie this question would have been answered immediately.
…However, since the question and Bible answers to that question repudiate Ellen White’s teaching.
…The theological concepts of Ellen White will trump Sacred Scripture each and every time.
…And of course the logic used will be; ‘but, that’s what the Bible teaches’.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

No, that’s not at all what I’m saying and attempting to help you see…
…The question is phrased in an Adventist premise which supposes.
…That the likeness of sinful flesh IS sinful flesh.

Jesus came to us in the “likeness” of sinful flesh NOT in sinful flesh…
…All the Apostles of Christ were absolutely “in sinful flesh”.
…He ( Christ ) was in “all” ways like us APART from sin.

If Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh, there must have been the possibility for Him to have sinned. If there was not the possibility for Him to sin, He was not in the likeness of sinful flesh.

I was originally asked to show Scriptures which demonstrated the impossibility of Christ sinning and loosing His Salvation…
…I followed through with this request by posting those Scriptures.
…To the point I started to feel ill from attaching the Adventist premise subsequent to those Scriptures.

The premise you attached to those scriptures was yours.

After it was established - that there was eternally no possibility of God ceasing to exist…
…Another concept of “free will” is introduced whereas it is implied that since man has free will.
…Christ would, by default, also have free will because He came in the likness of sinful flesh.

This is generally the mechanism by which error is protected at all costs…
…For a “Bible Only” fundie this question would have been answered immediately.
…However, since the question and Bible answers to that question repudiate Ellen White’s teaching.
…The theological concepts of Ellen White will trump Sacred Scripture each and every time.
…And of course the logic used will be; ‘but, that’s what the Bible teaches’.

So, just to be clear once again, you are saying that Christ whithout free will and whithout the possibility of sinning could not have come in the likeness of sinful flesh, right?

 

[KathleenGee]

Richard,

You have been on CAF longer than I…you know our beliefs on Jesus Christ…I haven’t been on SDA threads for awhile…I see the same stance against Catholicism…back and forth, but refusing to face the truth of our faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard,

You have been on CAF longer than I…you know our beliefs on Jesus Christ…I haven’t been on SDA threads for awhile…I see the same stance against Catholicism…back and forth, but refusing to face the truth of our faith in Jesus Christ.

Really Kathleen? You see a stance against Catholicism in my recent posts? In my last 3 or 4 posts I have merely asked Pythons for clarification. How is this “refusing to face the truth of our faith in Jesus Christ.”

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I don’t get your point here. Are you saying this is not true?

 

[Pythons]

If Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh, there must have been the possibility for Him to have sinned. If there was not the possibility for Him to sin, He was not in the likeness of sinful flesh.

That’s like saying since Lucifer went to war against God in heaven Lucifer had to have had a punchers chance in defeating God…
…Otherwise Lucifer would have never got into a war with God because who would war with “God” if there wasn’t at least.
…A possibility they could win!

This is Kingdom Hall Jehovah’s Witness reasoning…
…I’ve already demonstrated, from the Scriptures, that the “infirmites” or “sinful flesh”.
…Is ONLY related to the fallen condition of our bodies.
…We feel pain, get thirsty, hungry, can get sick and can die.
…All of which God experienced in the Incarnation.

To defend the heretical position of Ellen White you are now claiming if Christ couldn’t sin Christ couldn’t be a sacrifice…
…I’ve already explained this understanding is apart from Scripture and totally alien to it.
…What it is - is a required rubric of Adventism to support Jesus’ Incarnation to “vindicate” God’s law ( as in Christ isn’t really God ).

It’s like saying if the possibility didn’t exist for Christ to not be born of a Virgin…
…Then Christ’s sacrifice wouldn’t mean anything.
…When it only would mean Jesus WASN’T “The Christ”.

According to the Adventist rubric an angel who made it through the trials of life ( similar to Enoch )…
…Could have been the Christ.

This is the exact same logic Ellen White and her contemporaries used when they said…
…If God doesn’t have a literal rectum there wouldn’t be a literal Sanctuary in heaven.
…Therefore since there is a literal Sanctuary in heaven God has a rectum.
Richard Kastner:

The premise you attached to those scriptures was yours.

How do you justify that statement you just made in light of the following?

Ellen White
Because of sin, his posterity was born with inherent propensities of disobedience. But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted.** He could have sinned; He could have fallen**,

Ellen White
The new tomb enclosed Him in its rocky chambers. If one single sin had tainted His character the stone would never have been rolled away from the door of His rocky chamber, and the world with its burden of guilt would have perished

And a whole host more statements from Ellen even worse than those…
…If that could be imagined.
Richard Kastner:

So, just to be clear once again, you are saying that Christ whithout free will and whithout the possibility of sinning could not have come in the likeness of sinful flesh, right?

God can do ANYTHING Richard - execpt NOT BE GOD…
…And if God sinned He wouldn’t be God would he.

 

[Pythons]

Richard Kastner, here is another example of of the almost endless ones generated by Ellen White…
…Pay close attention to the bolded parts of her statement.

Ellen White
Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam’s position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. . . . In man’s behalf, Christ conquered by enduring the severest test. For our sake He exercised a self-control stronger than hunger or death.–The Desire of Ages, p. 117. {7ABC

Someone “exercises” self - control when they WANT to do something and the urge to do something is pulling on them…
…If you are a sex addict and want to sleep with a hooker that is talking to you.
…You will A ) resist the temptation ( exercise self-control ) or B) YIELD to that temptation and NOT exercise self-control.

Jesus said prior to being tempted “OF” or “BY” the Devil that the Devil was coming…
…But had NOTHING in Him.

John 14,30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, **and hath nothing in me **

If you are not GAY and a gay man comes up and tempts you to do stuff to or with him…
…It can be said you were tempted “by” or “of” a gay man.
…However because you are not gay the idea REPULSED you.
…This is how it was for Christ.

James 1,13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God:** for God cannot be tempted with evil**, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Jesus explicitly said the Devil had NOTHING in Him…
…Therefore Jesus was tempted ‘of’ or ‘by’ the Devil externally.
…Just like I showed you how you could be tempted by someone offering something that repulsed you.

However in our case each of us have desires for sin that requires us to resist or exercise self-control…
…To even suggest Christ wanted to do sexual stuff to the cute Jewish girl down the street BUT exercised self control from doing it.
…Is absolutely blasphemous!
…As much as it is absolutely Arian.

I’m happy to discuss these things with you until the cows come home Richard…
…I’ve got several years now of experience at the General Conference of SDA archives.
…And have ordered many “early” copies of Ellen White books ( prior to their tampering ).
…So I am prepared to talk over these things with you.

 

[Protector]

To defend the heretical position of Ellen White you are now claiming** if Christ couldn’t sin Christ couldn’t be a sacrifice…**

Ellen White
But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted.** He could have sinned; He could have fallen**,

and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Heb 9:22 D-R ) But because, “* it is impossible that with the blood of oxen and goats sin should be taken away.” * Heb 10:4 D-R, Christ, our Lord having become sin for us, offered himself, willingly, the perfect sacrifice for the whole world, …

Caiphas unknowingly put this selfless act,(that changed the World forever), into one simple sentence when he advised the Jews, ".that it was expedient that one man should die for the people John 18:14 D-R.

He became sin for us

, “For he hath made him,… who knew no sin (to be) sin for us,” 2 Cor 5:21.

Protector.

 

[PRmerger]

Welcome to the forums, Protector!

Just a friendly tip: check out this thread to learn how to use the quote feature properly. It makes your posts more legible.

In response to your comment:

I think he is saying that because Christ took our sins onto Himself, He became sin for us, “For he hath made him,… who knew no sin (to be) sin for us,” 2 Cor 5:21

.

Catholics give a hearty AMEN! to that. Not sure what you think Catholics disagree with in that verse?

 

[Protector]

Welcome to the forums, Protector!

Just a friendly tip: check out this thread to learn how to use the quote feature properly. It makes your posts more legible.

In response to your comment:.

Catholics give a hearty AMEN! to that. Not sure what you think Catholics disagree with in that verse?

QUOTE=Protector, Thank you for your welcome! Thank you also for the technical advice re- the correct procedure for quoting. There’s me thinking I was doing so well. I will endeavour to correct my errors.
Now to your response, I sincerely hope that Catholics would not disagree with Scripture. My comment was my interpretation of what I believe Richard was saying.
Protector

 

[Pythons]

pythons:

To defend the heretical position of Ellen White you are now claiming** if Christ couldn’t sin Christ couldn’t be a sacrifice…**

Ellen White
But Jesus Christ was the only begotten Son of God. He took upon Himself human nature, and was tempted in all points as human nature is tempted.** He could have sinned; He could have fallen**,

Protector:

“For in that, wherein he himself hath suffered and been tempted, he is able to succour them also that are tempted.” Heb.2:18 D-R

Christ was born without “Original Sin”, but He had free will as is seen from this verse, "Saying: Father, if thou wilt, remove this chalice from me: but yet not my will, but thine be done (Luke 22:42 Douay-Rheims.) so He could have sinned. but chose not to.

i.e. He had no propensity to sin.

"For he hath made him,… who knew no sin (to be) sin for us,; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him…( 2 Cor 5:21 King James).

Consider for a moment the reason God came and “saved us” and think about your reasoning just a little bit…
…Man “sinned” and by that act moved outside the Sanctifying Grace of God.
…God was not under some cosmic universal law whereas God HAD TO save humanity.
…Man did not deserve or merit salvation yet God did what He did out of His love for us.
…That’s Grace in a nutshell.

The Prophets in Sacred Scripture said “God Himself” would come and save us…
…They ( the Prophets ) also said “God does not sin OR fail”.

Zeph 3:5
The just LORD is in the midst thereof;** he will NOT do iniquity**: every morning doth he bring his judgment to light,** he faileth not**

&

Isaiah 35,4
Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; **he will come AND save **you

Hebrews 2,18 & every other text which addresses why Jesus is able to succour us…
…Are all explicit that the reason is because God took our flesh in it’s weakend state.
…Adam and Eve prior to sin had perfect bodies not prone to sickness and death.
…Christ came in “our” ( as in mine and your ) flesh, so God knows exactly how it feels to be in pain.
…That’s how “Christ is like unto us”.

protector:

Now, since, “…the wages of sin is death” Christ, (having taken on himself the sins of the whole World) had to die. Now, "…almost all things, according to the law, are cleansed with blood: and without shedding of blood there is no remission. Heb 9:22 D-R ) But because, “* it is impossible that with the blood of oxen and goats sin should be taken away.” * Heb 10:4 D-R, Christ, our Lord having become sin for us, offered himself, willingly, the perfect sacrifice for the whole world, …

Caiphas unknowingly put this selfless act,(that changed the World forever), into one simple sentence when he advised the Jews, ".that it was expedient that one man should die for the people John 18:14 D-R.

I don’t think anyone here is against that because what you just said above is true…
…From there you’ve somehow incorporated the concept that to want to live is a sin?
…And then jumped from there to saying that’s a valid apologetic for what Ellen White taught.

Jesus wasn’t tempted by the Devil to see if He WOULD SIN - the Spirit led Him into the desert…
…To be tempted of or by the Devil to show He wouldn’t sin.
…And the reason given in Scripture is because He Couldn’t Sin.
…Because God Himself came to save us.

The Prophets said The Christ would:

Be born a human male, Isaiah 9:6-7 - confirmed by Mark 1:1

Be born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7,14 - confirmed by Matt 1:20 -23

Be from the house of Judah, Isaiah 37:31 - confirmed by Matt 1: 1-2

Be born in Bethlehem, Micah 5:2 confirmed by Matt 2:1

Come out of Egypt, Hosea 11:1 confirmed by Matt 2:14

BE GOD HIMSELF, Isaiah 35:4 confirmed by the whole New Testament.

There would be NO sin in him, Isaiah 53:9 - confirmed by Jesus being tempted BY or OF the Devil.

Protector, what if Jesus wouldn’t have been born in Bethlehem? What if Jesus wasn’t born of a Virgin?
…What if!

These questions can be easily answered by saying Jesus wouldn’t have been the Christ…
…We know however that Jesus IS The Christ and each ‘PROOF’ confirms it.

The “real God” spoken of in Isaiah 35 said He was coming to save us and that He would NOT FAIL…
…He also explicitly says He will not SIN.
…That’s very clear.

Protector:

I don’t believe that Richard is saying that God sinned Pythons, I think he is saying that because Christ took our sins onto Himself, He became sin for us, “For he hath made him,… who knew no sin (to be) sin for us,” 2 Cor 5:21.

No, Richard said ( in keeping with Ellen White’s teaching ) that “Christ” COULD HAVE SINNED & could have lost His eternal existence…
…And that this great risk was realized PRIOR to the Incarnation.

I’ll try to jump on later and do a short summary of what Richard and Ellen White are claiming…
…I’ve got it all documented.

And Welcome to the Forum!

 

[Pythons]

A summary of the Seventh-day Adventist teaching on Christ

Ellen White, 21MR 418.5
“Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person–the Man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible”

Catholics would obviously have a problem with Christ’s natures being “blended” which is simply another word for ‘mixed’…
…Aside from that lets determine just what Ellen meant when she said Diety could not sink and die.
…We will do this by looking at her teaching that Christ, prior to the Incarnation, could have sunk and died.

Ellen White
Satan in heaven had hated Christ for His position in the courts of God. He hated Him the more when he himself was dethroned. He hated Him who pledged Himself to redeem a race of sinners. Yet into the world where Satan claimed dominion God permitted His Son to come, a helpless babe, subject to the weakness of humanity. He permitted Him to meet life’s peril in common with every human soul, to fight the battle as every child of humanity must fight it, at the risk of failure and eternal loss.” , The Desire of Ages. Page 49 ‘Unto you a Saviour

What the above just said was that God permitted His Son to come & ‘TRY’ to save humanity…
…At the “RISK” of eternal loss & this risk was realized PRIOR to God’s Son Incarnating.
…By default, this and everything else Ellen said ( which is a lot ) demonstrates that Christ was NOT DIETY in Himself.
…Because as Ellen clearly said it was impossible for Diety to sink and die.

Without Michael the archangel ( commander of God’s army ) heaven itself would be imperiled…
…Satan could, with Michael the archangel out of the way, mount an attack on the Holy City.
…Thus, heaven itself was imperiled.

Ellen White, GCB Dec 1, 1895
Remember that Christ risked all; “tempted like as we are,” he staked even his own eternal existence upon the issue of the conflict. Heaven itself was imperiled for our redemption.

You lay your bets PRIOR to the game starting, not at half-time!
…Ellen flat out said Christ staked his own eternal existence on this race.
…By “agreeing” that he would ( future ) stand in the place of man.

Of course Catholics would affirm that Christ was “eternally” God The Son…
…And that simply means was always God The Son and would always forever be God the Son.
…So what do we do with this Adventist paradoxical statement Ellen White made in which she states.
…That it’s IMPOSSIBLE for Diety to sink and die?