All have sinned.. including Mary.

[peary]

Originally Posted by **DLC **
Mary was not sinless or even exempt from original sin. No Bible passage even in the slightest sense refers this this idea.

To be “full of grace” is the absence of sin, especially if the message/salutation comes directly from God Himself through His angelic Messenger.

 

[po18guy]

Roman Catholics… Why don’t you believe ALL (including Mary) have sinned? God said it… shouldn’t that be final?

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Standard Protestant error. Your belief is the odd one, not the Catholic belief. Remember, every scriptural cherry you pick has a pit at its center. Please consider: (Gen 3:15) “I will put enmity between you and the woman” What did Jesus call Mary at Cana (John 2:4) and on the Cross (John 19:26)? “Woman” He never once called her “mother”.

A house divided cannot stand, right? (Luke 11:17) So, if Mary had sin, there could be no enmity between her and the evil one.

It almost appears that your God is not powerful enough to create a third human without sin. I pray that’s not the case.

Christ’s peace.

 

[meandean]

Vade post me, Satana

likewise, diablo

 

[planten]

Thanks planten…looks like the boat is back on course, or at least a parallel one now.

I’m a Catholic. I don’t believe Jesus was a sinner. St Peter, upon whom Jesus said He would build his Church said the** Blood of Christ is the blood of a lamb innocent and without blemish**(1 Peter 1:18,19).

Thanks for a good, gentle reply. We look to Jesus only if he said that he was a lamb etc. But I doubt if he did. So we should not invent things.

Your idea of leaving the decisions of a matter of who is a sinner up to God Almighty is a good one as far as it concerns our fellow men. We are better off concentrating on our own faults rather than those of others

.

Yet in keeping with the sense of the forum, it is listed under non-Catholic religions - not under non-Christian religions. So to many of us to say leaving it up to God Almighty to decide if Jesus was a sinner is the same as saying “Leaving it up to God Almighty to decide if God Almighty was a sinner.”

Yes, that is difficult for you to say that God was a sinner. But I wonder when they say “Wages of sin are death”. The church believes that Jesus died on the cross. So he was a sinner? It is such a complicated religion , criss crossed into many unbelievable fields, such as the original sin and the inherited sins. We Muslims do not believe in any born sinners at all.

But while we’re on the subject, let’s take a closer look:

Was Jesus in his human nature capable of sinning ? I think so because in Luke 4: 1-13, and Matt 4: 1-11, it says the devil tempted Jesus three times. What I find interesting is that each time Jesus replied “It is written…” or " Scripture has it…"; depending on your translation of the bible (if you have one).

The very fact that Jesus refers the tempter to sacred scripture indicates that He was in complete conformity with the word of God (He could not be otherwise because he is the Word of God [John 1: 1-14]).

** That is another point of difference. I feel that I am at a better level than you in some ways. I do not believe that Jesus was a sinner and I do not believe that Jesus should be tempted by the devil. Devil coming near Jesus is bad enough.**

Jesus was God and man - having both a human nature and a divine nature; hence a human will and a divine will. That’s why we find in scripture more than one reference to Jesus’ obedience - He obeyed his divine will with his human will So he didn’t sin

.

**Sorry we muslims cannot believe dual status for any one. We cannot believe that Jesus was God or smaller god. We cannot believe that he had a dual status. This dual status is created by the will of the church to give cover to the wrong beliefs. We cannot believe that any man or angel or Jinn can be God.

Please drop this dual status. keep one status for Jesus, as a man or as a God. Jesus never said that he had dual status. So it means you people have deduced it from different writings. It is not the truth. It is Not the word of Father God or the son god**…

However, in his agony in the garden of Gethsemane, he took all our sins upon Himself for the purpose of expiation; to Saint Faustina Kowalska of the Divine Mercy, Jesus said he endured **a dreadful loathing of soul **in the garden of Gethsemane…only God can know what that feels like.

Yes we are sorry that Jesus suffered much pain at the hands of his staunch enemies. But that is all. That was bad for every one.

If one does not believe Jesus is God, then one will not be able to grasp that truth that Jesus did not sin

.

** I do not agree. I do not believe that Jesus is God. But I do very well believe that Jesus was not a sinner. I also believe that his mother Mary was also not a sinner. No prophet of Allah was a sinner. That is the major difference in the Muslim and christian thinking.**

God bless all who have posted here

.

Thanks for blessing all. May Allah reward you for all your good words and deeds.

 

[peary]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeedImprovement
Thanks planten…looks like the boat is back on course, or at least a parallel one now.

Quote:
I’m a Catholic. I don’t believe Jesus was a sinner. St Peter, upon whom Jesus said He would build his Church said the Blood of Christ is the blood of a lamb innocent and without blemish(1 Peter 1:18,19).

Thanks for a good, gentle reply. We look to Jesus only if he said that he was a lamb etc. But I doubt if he did. So we should not invent things.

Quote:
Your idea of leaving the decisions of a matter of who is a sinner up to God Almighty is a good one as far as it concerns our fellow men. We are better off concentrating on our own faults rather than those of others

.

Quote:
Yet in keeping with the sense of the forum, it is listed under non-Catholic religions - not under non-Christian religions. So to many of us to say leaving it up to God Almighty to decide if Jesus was a sinner is the same as saying “Leaving it up to God Almighty to decide if God Almighty was a sinner.”

Yes, that is difficult for you to say that God was a sinner. But I wonder when they say “Wages of sin are death”. The church believes that Jesus died on the cross. So he was a sinner? It is such a complicated religion , criss crossed into many unbelievable fields, such as the original sin and the inherited sins. We Muslims do not believe in any born sinners at all.

Quote:
But while we’re on the subject, let’s take a closer look:

Was Jesus in his human nature capable of sinning ? I think so because in Luke 4: 1-13, and Matt 4: 1-11, it says the devil tempted Jesus three times. What I find interesting is that each time Jesus replied “It is written…” or " Scripture has it…"; depending on your translation of the bible (if you have one).

The very fact that Jesus refers the tempter to sacred scripture indicates that He was in complete conformity with the word of God (He could not be otherwise because he is the Word of God [John 1: 1-14]).

That is another point of difference. I feel that I am at a better level than you in some ways. I do not believe that Jesus was a sinner and I do not believe that Jesus should be tempted by the devil. Devil coming near Jesus is bad enough.

Quote:
Jesus was God and man - having both a human nature and a divine nature; hence a human will and a divine will. That’s why we find in scripture more than one reference to Jesus’ obedience - He obeyed his divine will with his human will So he didn’t sin

.

Sorry we muslims cannot believe dual status for any one. We cannot believe that Jesus was God or smaller god. We cannot believe that he had a dual status. This dual status is created by the will of the church to give cover to the wrong beliefs. We cannot believe that any man or angel or Jinn can be God.

Please drop this dual status. keep one status for Jesus, as a man or as a God. Jesus never said that he had dual status. So it means you people have deduced it from different writings. It is not the truth. It is Not the word of Father God or the son god…

Quote:
However, in his agony in the garden of Gethsemane, he took all our sins upon Himself for the purpose of expiation; to Saint Faustina Kowalska of the Divine Mercy, Jesus said he endured a dreadful loathing of soul in the garden of Gethsemane…only God can know what that feels like.

Yes we are sorry that Jesus suffered much pain at the hands of his staunch enemies. But that is all. That was bad for every one.

Quote:
If one does not believe Jesus is God, then one will not be able to grasp that truth that Jesus did not sin

.

I do not agree. I do not believe that Jesus is God. But I do very well believe that Jesus was not a sinner. I also believe that his mother Mary was also not a sinner. No prophet of Allah was a sinner. That is the major difference in the Muslim and christian thinking.

:banghead:

 

[NeedImprovement]

Planten perhaps you could verify something . First of all I believe you are at a better level in one way because you have an advantage: You know a fair amount about Christianity but I don’t know very much about Islam.

A priest friend of mine told me that the Koran actually had more verses in it on Mary the mother of Jesus, than the Bbible did. Could you tell us if this is so please ?

Thx.

ps.
I try to base what I post on material that is written, so I didn’t mean to give you the impression that I invented the name “Lamb” for Jesus. I was quoting St. Peter. Christians believe that Jesus was the sacrificial Lamb prefigured in the Old Testament (Leviticus 4:32). Isaiah 53:7 also speaks of the Messiah as a “lamb innocent led to slaughter”. In the Gospel of St. John, John the Baptist calls Jesus the “Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” So technically one would have to say that the prophet Isaiah, St. Peter and St. John the Baptist invented the name “Lamb”.

 

[tomshaikh]

Roman Catholics… Why don’t you believe ALL (including Mary) have sinned? God said it… shouldn’t that be final?

Rom 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

THE BIRTH OF MARYAM AND THE WAY SHE WAS RAISED

Maryam, who was chosen to give birth to Jesus (as), was born at a time of disorder when the Children of Israel placed all their hopes on a Messiah's coming. Allah specially chose Maryam for this blessed duty and brought her up accordingly. Maryam came from a noble family, the family of 'Imran. Allah chose this family over the rest of all people. 

The members of the family of 'Imran were known to be people having deep faith in Allah. They turned to Him while doing all their deeds and meticulously observed His limits. When 'Imran's wife learned that she was pregnant, she turned to her Creator and prayed, and she devoted what was in her womb to the service of Allah. Allah gives an account of this in the Qur'an: 

Remember when the wife of 'Imran said, "my Lord, I have pledged to You what is in my womb, devoting it to Your service. Please accept my prayer. You are the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing." When she gave birth, she said, "My Lord! I have given birth to a girl" - and Allah knew very well what she had given birth to, male and female are not the same - "and I have named her Maryam and placed her and her children in Your safekeeping from the accursed shaytan." (Surah Al 'Imran: 35-36) 

When Maryam was born, Imran's wife sought only the good pleasure of Allah. She turned to Allah and placed Maryam and her children in His safekeeping from the accursed Shaytan. In return for her sincerity and prayer, Allah gave Maryam noble virtues. In the Qur'an, Allah explains how Maryam was brought up under His protection and meticulous care. "Her Lord accepted her with approval and made her grow in health and beauty." (Surah Al 'Imran: 37) Zakariyya (Zachariah) became Maryam's guardian and during the time she spent with him, he realised that she was favoured with exceptional qualities. Moreover, Allah showed her many favours "without any reckoning": 

…Every time Zakariyya visited her in the Upper Room, he found food with her. He said, "Maryam, how did you come by this?" She said, "It is from Allah. Allah provides for whomever He wills without any reckoning." (Surah Al 'Imran: 37) 

Just as Allah chose the family of 'Imran, He also chose Maryam, a member of 'Imran's family, and provided her with an exceptional upbringing. Allah purified Maryam and chose her over all other women. This attribute of hers is stated in the Qur'an as follows: 

And when the angels said, "Maryam, Allah has chosen you and purified you. He has chosen you over all other women. Maryam, obey your Lord and prostrate and bow with those who bow." (Surah Al 'Imran: 42-43) 

In the community in which she lived, Maryam became a person known for the loyalty and sincerity she showed to Allah. She is especially distinguished as a woman "who guarded her chastity." In Surat at-Tahrim, it is informed in the Qur'an as below:

(Allah has made an example for those who believe) Maryam, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity - We breathed Our Spirit into her and she confirmed the Words of her Lord and His Book and was one of the obedient. (Surat at-Tahrim: 12)

 

[justasking4]

po18guy;3549533]Standard Protestant error. Your belief is the odd one, not the Catholic belief. Remember, every scriptural cherry you pick has a pit at its center. Please consider: (Gen 3:15) “I will put enmity between you and the woman” What did Jesus call Mary at Cana (John 2:4) and on the Cross (John 19:26)? “Woman” He never once called her “mother”.

Here is what the New American Bible on Genesis 3:15 says:

“He will strike . . . at his heel: since the antecedent for he and his is the collective noun offspring, i.e., all the descendants of the woman, a more exact rendering of the sacred writer’s words would be, “They will strike . . . at their heels.” However, later theology saw in this passage more than unending hostility between snakes and men. The serpent was regarded as the devil (Wisdom 2:24; John 8:44; Rev 12:9; 20:2), whose eventual defeat seems implied in the contrast between head and heel. Because “the Son of God appeared that he might destroy the works of the devil” (1 John 3:8), the passage can be understood as the first promise of a Redeemer for fallen mankind. The woman’s offspring then is primarily Jesus Christ.”
Notice that these catholic scholars say nothing of Mary here.

A house divided cannot stand, right? (Luke 11:17) So, if Mary had sin, there could be no enmity between her and the evil one.

Do you think there was enmity between the apostles and satan? Keep in mind they did sin.

It almost appears that your God is not powerful enough to create a third human without sin. I pray that’s not the case.

Christ’s peace.

 

[planten]

Planten perhaps you could verify something . First of all I believe you are at a better level in one way because you have an advantage: You know a fair amount about Christianity but I don’t know very much about Islam.

A priest friend of mine told me that the Koran actually had more verses in it on Mary the mother of Jesus, than the Bbible did. Could you tell us if this is so please ?

.

Yes, Dear, there is lot more on Mary, the Mother in the Quran than it is in the bbile. I rely myreply on the four gospels only because I amnot an expert on the rest of the bible NT.

There is complete chapter (Ch.19) of the Quran on Mary. In various other places (ch.3) the birth of Mary is described, and the mother of Mary is mentioned with good words. Also the marriage of Mary is described (without naming Joseph). It is told that the marriage was arranged by Allah, i.e. God Himself.

I hope it is enough for now. If need be I can present the relevant verses. Thanks. I do not know much about the lamb yet.

 

[LilyM]

Do you think there was enmity between the apostles and satan? Keep in mind they did sin.

In the sense of total and utter opposition? No - in that they sinned they were still at least partly doing Satan’s work, as we all do when we sin. How could they really be in enmity with him as Jesus was?

Remember God said ‘enmity between you, the woman and her seed’, meaning the woman is Satan’s enemy to pretty much the same degree as her seed. Being a sinner isn’t compatible with that sort of enmity.

 

[tptram]

Originally Posted by Rolltide
Show me an altar call in the Bible.

Actually, for that matter, show me the specific word “Trinity” in the Bible…

Who compiled the Bible, btw?

Altar calls are simply call for people to Accept the gift of salvation through faith in the Jesus. They don’t have to come to the front. They can receive Jesus any where. If they call on Him.

which book and verse please

Trinity is term used to denote the Godhead as 3 in 1. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit.

which book and verse please

 

[NeedImprovement]

In the sense of total and utter opposition? No - in that they sinned they were still at least partly doing Satan’s work, as we all do when we sin. How could they really be in enmity with him as Jesus was?

Remember God said ‘enmity between you, the woman and her seed’, meaning the woman is Satan’s enemy to pretty much the same degree as her seed. Being a sinner isn’t compatible with that sort of enmity.

This (for me personally) appears to confirm one theme of the thread - how sin could not exist where our Lord and his Blessed Mother did, or vice versa.

That passage from Genesis is also describing how good and evil are diametrically opposed.

We humans, although good in essence, do partake in a “fallen” or “wounded” nature. That being said, we are still invited to be at enmity to the same degree as the woman and her seed (another way of saying this is a “call to holiness”). I personally can’t see myself advancing too far down this path without the grace of God.

Luke 10: 17-20 , explains to us just how complete God’s invitation or “call” is :
"The seventy-two returned in jubilation saying , ‘Master even the demons are subject to us in your name.’ He said in reply, ‘I watched satan fall from the sky like lightning. See I have given you power to tread on … all the forces of the enemy.’ "

Jesus next reminded the apostles that it was more important to rejoice that their names were inscribed in heaven.

So the degree to which we are able to partake in this “emnity” or “holiness” would appear proportional to or dependent on how closely we are united to Christ (in my case - with the help of his Mother).

 

[Lampo]

I’m going to bet that Jesus kept the Fourth Commandment. Since we are to follow Jesus and emulate Him, I’m going to do as He did and honor His mother. Plus she *always *points me to Him!

 

[Good_Fella]

I’m going to bet that Jesus kept the Fourth Commandment. Since we are to follow Jesus and emulate Him, I’m going to do as He did and honor His mother. Plus she *always *points me to Him!

“Do whatever he tells you.”
John 2, 5

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[guanophore]

We humans, although good in essence, do partake in a “fallen” or “wounded” nature. That being said, we are still invited to be at enmity to the same degree as the woman and her seed (another way of saying this is a “call to holiness”). I personally can’t see myself advancing too far down this path without the grace of God.

This is so true. It is all dependent upon grace. Adam and Eve were created without sin, and graced to live in the presence of God in the garden. Mary was created without sin, and by the fullness of God’s grace, remained that way. We, who are grafted into the Body, can also, by God’s grace, live in enmity with sin.

 

[justasking4]

LilyM;3555047]In the sense of total and utter opposition? No - in that they sinned they were still at least partly doing Satan’s work, as we all do when we sin. How could they really be in enmity with him as Jesus was?

I agree. It could only be said of Him in Whom no sin was found and in which the evil one had “nothing in Him”. See John 14:30.

Remember God said ‘enmity between you, the woman and her seed’, meaning the woman is Satan’s enemy to pretty much the same degree as her seed. Being a sinner isn’t compatible with that sort of enmity.

So we agree then that a person, even though a sinner, can be at enmity with satan?

 

[LilyM]

So we agree then that a person, even though a sinner, can be at enmity with satan?

We agree no such thing, for starters. And it’s beside the point whether a human can have a limited level of enmity or not.

The point is the woman and her seed have, as God says in Genesis, the same level of enmity - that is, total. Doesn’t matter what any other human being is or is not capable of, the woman (Mary) must also be one in whom the Evil One has nothing, as Jesus is.

 

[justasking4]

We agree no such thing, for starters. And it’s beside the point whether a human can have a limited level of enmity or not.

The point is the woman and her seed have, as God says in Genesis, the same level of enmity - that is, total. Doesn’t matter what any other human being is or is not capable of, the woman (Mary) must also be one in whom the Evil One has nothing, as Jesus is.

Is not Mary part of the woman’s seed also since she to is born of human parents as all sinners are?

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Is not Mary part of the woman’s seed also since she to is born of human parents as all sinners are?

Yup, but she is also the woman herself. She is both the daughter of Eve, and the new Eve. Concieved of sin, but freed from sin.

 

[justasking4]

Originally Posted by justasking4
Is not Mary part of the woman’s seed also since she to is born of human parents as all sinners are?

Goth_Catholic
Yup, but she is also the woman herself. She is both the daughter of Eve, and the new Eve. Concieved of sin, but freed from sin.

Are you saying she had at one point “original sin”?