All will be saved

[teresa63]

teresa63:

o_mlly, do you adhere to the idea of “assurance of heaven”? Because that is not Catholic soteriology.

My only claim is that God can save all. Do you claim He cannot?

I’ve never made that claim, nor would I; because I know that God can do anything He wills to do.
God wills for all to be saved; but He also wills that His Divine Will shall not force the free will of man.

 

[teresa63]

teresa63:

Is the Word of God, in Jesus’ own voice, good enough? The Apostle Matthew recorded His words in Mt 7:21-23.

Again, your interpretation is not binding. Moreover, if one’s personal interpretation contradicts Church teaching then on must recant. Do you have a magisterial citation or not?

o_mlly, I’m a certified catechist with a BA in Catholic theology. Believe me when I say that I know what the Catholic church teaches.

 

[o_mlly]

Are There Souls in Hell Right Now? | Catholic Answers

What the Early Church Believed: Hell | Catholic Answers

Tim Staples is not a bishop.

Please cite in the second link the words and source that you think supports your claim.

 

[o_mlly]

_mlly, I’m a certified catechist with a BA in Catholic theology. Believe me when I say that I know what the Catholic church teaches.

Your appeal to your own authority is a logical fallacy. Do you have a citation?

 

[teresa63]

o_mlly:

teresa63:

Is the Word of God, in Jesus’ own voice, good enough? The Apostle Matthew recorded His words in Mt 7:21-23.

Again, your interpretation is not binding. Moreover, if one’s personal interpretation contradicts Church teaching then on must recant. Do you have a magisterial citation or not?

o_mlly, I’m a certified catechist with a BA in Catholic theology. Believe me when I say that I know what the Catholic church teaches.

My “interpretation” is not a “personal interpretation” nor can it ‘contradict Church teaching’.
My teaching is in full compliance with the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.
Are you Catholic? I do not see that in your profile.

 

[Melchior_1]

Your appeal to your own authority is a logical fallacy. Do you have a citation?

So to be clear; you’re looking for a citation from a Pope saying there is a Hell? Would the catechism suffice?

 

[teresa63]

teresa63:

Is the Word of God, in Jesus’ own voice, good enough? The Apostle Matthew recorded His words in Mt 7:21-23.

Again, your interpretation is not binding. Moreover, if one’s personal interpretation contradicts Church teaching then on must recant. Do you have a magisterial citation or not?

Carl Olson explains this well:

“Christ died to redeem the whole world. We can distinguish his redemptive work from the acceptance of salvation. He redeemed the whole world. However, many will reject that saving work. In affirming the universality of Christ’s redemptive work we are not universalists. To say that he redeemed the whole world is not to conclude that all will be saved.”

See full article in The Catholic World Report here:

https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2013/05/23/pope-francis-teaches-that-everyone-is-saved-wow-hold-on-wait-a-second/

 

[AveOTheotokos]

Tim Staples is not a bishop.

No, but he quotes the CCC:

Please cite in the second link the words and source that you think supports your claim.

Sure! This one seems relevant:

Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, “In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard” (pp. 185–6).

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

And this part at the end is kind of important too :

NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

Jesus said a couple things about Hell as well. For example in Matthew 25:41-46:

41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’
44 Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’
45 Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’
46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 

[Latin]

God bless you Teresa63 and God bless every readers of the CAF.
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The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.
.
Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

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(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote.
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.
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THE CRUX OF THE MATTER IS: THERE ARE SOME GRACES WE ARE ALWAYS COOPERATE AND WE CAN NEVER RESIST. – DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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SOME EXAMPLES

CCCS = Catechism of the Catholic Church, Simplified.

Explaining Justification
The grace of God’s Justification CCCS 1990-1991; Justification is God’s free gift which detaches man from enslavement to sin and reconciles him to God.

Justification is also our acceptance of God’s righteousness. In this gift, faith, hope, charity, and OBEDIENCE TO GOD’S WILL are given to us.
.

The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming totally from God’s decision and surpassing all power of human intellect and will. End quote.
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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ANOTHER EXAMPLE:

WE ALWAYS COOPERATE WITH GOD’S GRACE THE GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE.

GOD’S GRACE THE GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE IS AN INFALLIBLE PROTECTION OF EVERY INITIALLY JUSTIFIED.

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THE GIFT OF FINAL PERSEVERANCE

Quote: St. Thomas Aquinas, In his Summa Theologiae he wrote:

[P]erseverance is called he abiding in good TO the end of life.

And in order to have this perseverance man . . . needs the divine assistance guiding him and guarding him against the attacks of the passions . . . that he may be kept from evil TILL the end of his life (ST IIa:109:10)

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This same teaching was infallibly taught by the Council of Trent after the Protestant Reformation.

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A Tiptoe Through TULIP by James Akin

Quote: Trent’s Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of “That Great and Special Gift of Final Perseverance,” and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of which it is written:

‘He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],’ Which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]."

Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; The gift of final perseverance always works.

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Catholics even have a special name for the GRACE God gives these people: “The Gift of Final Perseverance.”
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The Church formally teaches that there is a Gift of Final Perseverance.

Aquinas (and even Molina) said this grace always ensures that a person will persevere.

Aquinas said, “Predestination [to final salvation] most certainly and infallibly takes effect.”

In order to have this perseverance man…needs the divine assistance guiding and guarding him against the attacks of the passions…” End quote
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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THREE THEOLOGICAL FACT ACCORDING TO THE ABOVE TEACHINGS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
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1. WITHOUT God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance everyone would positively end up in hell. – INFALLIBLE teachings of the Trent.
   .
2. WITH God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance every Initially Justified has Everlasting Life. – DE FIDE Dogma of the Catholic Church.
   .
3. If even one receiver would/could reject/resist God’s grace The Gift of Final Perseverance would end up in hell and God would instantly lose His omniscience. – DE FIDE Dogma of the Catholic Church.

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CONCLUSION
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God’s free and undeserved gift of Initial Justification saves the Initially Justified, and His grace The Gift of Final Perseverance keep saved the Initially Justified and infallible makes sure every Initially Justified dies in the state of Grace. – DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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IF God REFUSE to give (which NO ONE can resist – Theological FACT + DE FIDE Dogma) the grace of God’s call (CCCS 1996-1998) and the grace of The Gift of Final Perseverance to anyone or to the majority of the helpless human race is ABSOLUTELY EQUAL with PREDESTINATION TO HELL of the HELPLESS majority of the human race.
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OFFICIAL TEACHINGS
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Strictly ONLY the receivers of the IRRESISTIBLE and IRREVOCABLE grace of God’s call (CCCS 1996-1998) and the IRRESISTIBLE and IRREVOCABLE grace of The Gift of Final Perseverance has the possibility of salvation and in fact, their salvation is an ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY. – Predestination of the elect, which is a DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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The above theological facts are absolute proofs GOD’S LOVE AND JUSTICE DEMANDS Universal Salvation. – There is NO WAY out.
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The salvation of the entire human race 100 % depends SOLELY on God’s Eternal Design/Plan and Eternal Will and 0 % depends on the human race.
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NO ONE can contradict the above statements!!!
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So, God’s Eternal Design/Plan is Universal Salvation, God’s Eternal Will is Universal Salvation.
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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THE TRANSFORMATION FROM THE ENSLAVEMENT TO SIN INTO THE GLORIOUS FREEDOM OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD
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THE PROCESS OF THE GRACE OF GOD’S CALL

The Grace of God’s Call (1996-1998)
Justification comes from grace (God’s free and undeserved help) and is given to us to respond to his call.

This call to eternal life is supernatural, coming totally from God’s decision and surpassing all power of human intellect and will. End quote.

John 15:16; You did not chose Me, but I chose you.
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First: At God’s call, at our Initial Justification, God PERFORMS a heart transplant in us, etc. – God recreates us/Born Again, 2 Cor.5:17; (NIV) Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! End quote.
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Ez.36:25-28;
25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols.

26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my Spirit in you and CAUSE YOU [our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation] TO FOLLOW MY DECREES and be careful to keep my laws. – In the brackets added.

28 Then you will live in the land, I gave your ancestors; you will be my people, and I will be your God. End quote.
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Did you notice Teresa63?
Ez.36:25-28 addressed to the Nation of Israel that they will live in the land, NOT IN HEAVEN, of course the same principle applies to the PEOPLE of all Nations who are not elected to be members of the Church/Bride of Christ.
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Only the Church/Bride of Christ goes to heaven, the members of all the Nations stay here in the New Recreated Earth. – Ez.36:25-28; Dan.7:27; Is.2:4; etc.

But even the Bride of Christ will come down from heaven with Christ at His Second Coming and He will rule over all Nations with His Bride.
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CCC 677 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.
God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.

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Second: At the point when God gives His grace of Initial Justification/Salvation, God immediately touches and DIRECTLY MOVES THE HEART OF MAN by orienting towards to freely accept and freely choose His grace of Initial Justification/Salvation, every man always responds freely and positively.

This is an infallible work of God in man’s HEART and WILL and man always positively respond and freely cooperates.
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Continue

 

[Latin]

Continuation
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AFTER THE TRANSFORMATION FROM THE ENSLAVEMENT TO SIN INTO THE GLORIOUS FREEDOM OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD, GOD IS THE ONE WHO WORKING IN HIS CHILDREN BOTH TO WILL AND TO ACT
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RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT by James Akin

Quote: One is saved the moment one is initially justified.

Of course, a Calvinist can say (as a Thomistic Catholic would say) that both cooperations in the giving and the embracing of the eternal call are themselves produced (not just enabled) by God’s grace, and this is perfectly fine.

A Calvinist and a Catholic alike can say that our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation. No problem at all. End quote.

.

Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”

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Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.

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ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
"For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it."
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
"It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL."

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Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, "In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us." (#329.2)

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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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In other words, when God commands, He capacities the hearer to respond.
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Our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
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God bless you Teresa63 and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[po18guy]

Where did you learn catechism? Seriously, your views are mainstream Episcopalian - whatever that is.

Whatever happened to the recognition of sin, the repentance from sin - you know, all that Christian stuff?

 

[Latin]

Where did you learn catechism? Seriously, your views are mainstream Episcopalian - whatever that is.

Whatever happened to the recognition of sin, the repentance from sin - you know, all that Christian stuff?

God bless you Po18guy and God bless every readers of the CAF.

I guess Po18guy you asking the questions from me.
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I’m a Catholic Christian, I don’t know at all Episcopalian views on Predestination and Salvation, I don’t even really know Protestant views on the subjects.
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IN MY OPINION
I real Christian has a reverent and healthy fear of God, BY COOPERATION WITH THE GRACE OF GOD always repent when need to and ask forgiveness from God, NOT BECAUSE HAVE TO but because THE LOVE OF GOD.
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God bless you Po18guy and God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[po18guy]

There are still a few conservative Anglicans and Episcopalians, but more and more are embracing active sin without shame or condemnation.

The devil’s greatest trick was to convince us that he does not exist

• Charles Baudelaire

 

[o_mlly]

My “interpretation” is not a “personal interpretation” nor can it ‘contradict Church teaching’.

My teaching is in full compliance with the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

If true then you should have no problem citing the Church authority to support your claim:

… not all will be saved.

Apparently, you cannot.

 

[o_mlly]

So to be clear; you’re looking for a citation from a Pope saying there is a Hell?

No. The existence of hell is not the issue. The poster claimed that the Church teaches “not all will be saved.” I asked for a magisterial source. So far, nothing.

 

[o_mlly]

Carl Olson explains this well:

Carl Olson is not a bishop. That said, in this article, Olson is correcting those knee-jerk Catholics who misunderstood Pope Francis.

 

[o_mlly]

Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, “In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell.

Strawman alert. The issue is not the existence of hell. The citation that seems to elude the poster is one which magisterially teaches “not all will be saved.”

Be careful citing JPII to mine quotes out of context about Catholic soteriology. Balthasar was his favorite theologian.

Here’s a few JPII quotes that seem to say quite the opposite:

• “… therefore in Jesus’ human nature, and therefore, the whole of humanity is redeemed, saved, enobled to the extent of participating in divine life by means of grace.” (General Audience 1978).
• “Christ obtained, once and for all, the salvation of man – of each man and of all men" (L’Osservatore Romano, May 6, 1980).
• “He obtains once and for all the salvation of man, of each man, and for all, of those that no one shall snatch out of his hand. Who, in fact, could snatch them?” (Homily April 27, 1980).
• The Redemption even brings salvation to all, for each one is included in the mystery of the Redemption and with each one Christ has united himself forever through this mystery" (Encyclical Redemptoris Missio).