All will be saved

[AveOTheotokos]

A strawman? Only when you don’t take the rest of what was quoted by me from the article. And I didn’t cherry pick on my own, I posted the whole tract and YOU request that I pull a relevant quote.

Quote mining? You asked me to give you a relevant quote from the second article. You took that quote and cut it in half. You basically quote mined my post, and set up a strawman of your own.

The rest said:

[T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard”

You also ignored the comment that was after the quote in the article which states:

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

And this has a NIHIL OBSTAT and IMPRIMATUR. You have not responded to that as well.

Your quotes are all on Jesus winning salvation for all. He did win salvation for all, that is not the question here. What you didn’t provide is a quote saying that the salvation can’t be rejected, or that once we are saved it cannot be lost.

 

[o_mlly]

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

If the issue of who (human) will go to hell is undecided then then the issue of any human at all going to hell must also be undecided. I would still like to see a citation supporting the claim Catholicism teaches that “not all will be saved.”

Please re-read the apparently sympathetic quotes I offered from JPII to Balthasar’s theology.

 

[o_mlly]

What you didn’t provide is a quote saying that the salvation can’t be rejected, or that once we are saved it cannot be lost.

Why would I do that? I have not claimed such nonsense to be Catholic teaching.

What I have asked for is simply a magisterial citation that supports the claim that Catholicism teaches “not all will be saved.” Why do so many evade this simple request with strawman arguments?

 

[o_mlly]

And this has a NIHIL OBSTAT and IMPRIMATUR. You have not responded to that as well.

Many misunderstand the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur certifications. These certifications only indicate that nothing is objectionable in this writing; not that this writing presents Catholic doctrine.

The difference between what Catholics must believe and what Catholics may believe is considerable. The certifications insure that the writing does not breach only the former.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

If the issue of who (human) will go to hell is undecided then then the issue of any human at all going to hell must also be undecided. I would still like to see a citation supporting the claim Catholicism teaches that “not all will be saved.”

Please re-read the apparently sympathetic quotes I offered from JPII to Balthasar’s theology.

No, Jesus tells us some WILL be rejected. He does not say who or how many, but that there will be some. There can’t be wailing and gnashing of teeth if there is noone there to do it

“… therefore in Jesus’ human nature, and therefore, the whole of humanity is redeemed, saved, enobled to the extent of participating in divine life by means of grace.” (General Audience 1978).

Only to the extent of participating. Those who refuse to participate and reject God’s grace will not remain saved

“Christ obtained, once and for all, the salvation of man – of each man and of all men" (L’Osservatore Romano, May 6, 1980).

He obtained it, but this can still be lost. Jesus repeatedly tells of the loss and rejection of salvation.

“He obtains once and for all the salvation of man, of each man, and for all, of those that no one shall snatch out of his hand. Who, in fact, could snatch them?” (Homily April 27, 1980).

Correct no one can snatch us away. But we are free to reject Him. Or are you implying that Jesus holds us against our will and binds us to salvation?

The Redemption even brings salvation to all, for each one is included in the mystery of the Redemption and with each one Christ has united himself forever through this mystery" (Encyclical Redemptoris Missio).

Yes, Christ has brought redemption to all. We are free to reject that redemption and instead of saying “Thy will be done” we have the freedom to say “No, MY will be done” and God loves us so much as to respect our choice and in turn tells us “Thy will be done”. He let’s us choose or reject Him freely.

All your quotes are about Jesus attaining salvation and redemption for all. This is true, but this salvation and redemption can be rejected. Your quotes are all referring to how Jesus and the New Covenant are meant to be available to all of humanity for eternity as opposed to the earlier covenants with God which only applied to specific groups of people (a man, a family, a tribe, a nation, etc…)

 

[AveOTheotokos]

Many misunderstand the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur certifications. These certifications only indicate that nothing is objectionable in this writing; not that this writing presents Catholic doctrine.

The difference between what Catholics must believe and what Catholics may believe is considerable. The certifications insure that the writing does not breach only the former.

Yes, and this line from the document:

“Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided”

Is certified as not contradicting Church teaching. Some can’t go if all are saved.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

Some more links:

A follow up to Tim’s article earlier (I know he isn’t a bishop)

What Is Hell? | Catholic Answers Magazine

This one is on Neo-Universalism which appears to be your position:

The Reality of Hell

"Neo-universalists" claim it's possible that all men, without exception, go to heaven. Is it possible that hell is empty? Click here for an answer.

www.catholic.com

And a few more

Hell? Yes! (Part I)

Many preachers today are silent on the topic of hell. What does the Catholic Church teach about this it? Click here for a thorugh explanation.

www.catholic.com

Hell? Yes! (Part II)

What does the New Testament say about hell? In this article, we explain the Catholic understanding of doctrine of hell, and where it is found in the Bible.

www.catholic.com

 

[Latin]

God bless you AveOTheotokos And God bless every readers of the CAF.
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The Catholic Church affirms predestination as a DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA
THE CATHOLIC DOGMA. – The predestination of the elect.
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Consequently, the whole future membership of heaven, down to its minutest details, has

been IRREVOCABLY FIXED FROM ALL ETERNITY. Nor could it be otherwise. For if it

were possible that a predestined individual should after all be CAST INTO HELL or that

one not predestined should in the end REACH HEAVEN, then God would have been

MISTAKEN in his foreknowledge of future events; He would NO LONGER be omniscient.

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(2) The second quality of predestination, the DEFINITENESS of the number of the elect,

follows NATURALLY from the first. For if the eternal counsel of God regarding the

predestined is UNCHANGEABLE, then the number of the predestined must likewise be

UNCHANGEABLE and DEFINITE, subject NEITHER to ADDITIONS nor to

CANCELLATIONS. Anything indefinite in the number would eo ipso imply a lack of

certitude in God’s knowledge and would DESTROY His omniscience. End quote.
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You said AveOTheotokos:
Correct no one can snatch us away. But we are free to reject Him. Or are you implying that Jesus holds us against our will and binds us to salvation?
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As you see above AveOTheotokos if even one Child/elect of God would reject God’s salvation, in all Christian history, God would instantly lose His omniscience, DE FIDE Dogma (the highest level of binding theological certainty).
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No child/elect of God ever want to reject God’s salvation [they are free to reject it, but they are NEVER reject it (it is a theological IMPOSSIBILITY to reject their salvation)], their salvation are INFALLIBLE protected by God’s special grace The Gift of Final Perseverance. – DE FIDE Dogma. + Infallible teachings of the Trent.
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God bless you AveOTheotokos And God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[Latin]

God bless you AveOTheotokos And God bless every readers of the CAF.

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I give you further proof that no child/elect of God ever reject his/her salvation.
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AFTER THE TRANSFORMATION FROM THE ENSLAVEMENT TO SIN INTO THE GLORIOUS FREEDOM OF THE CHILDREN OF GOD, GOD IS THE ONE WHO WORKING IN HIS CHILDREN BOTH TO WILL AND TO ACT
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RIGHTEOUSNESS AND MERIT by James Akin

Quote: One is saved the moment one is initially justified.

Of course, a Calvinist can say (as a Thomistic Catholic would say) that both cooperations in the giving and the embracing of the eternal call are themselves produced (not just enabled) by God’s grace, and this is perfectly fine.

A Calvinist and a Catholic alike can say that our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation. No problem at all. End quote.

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Phil.2:13; “For it is God who works in you BOTH TO WILL and TO ACT for His good pleasure.”

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Aquinas said, “God changes the will without forcing it.
But he can change the will from the fact that He himself operates in the will as He does in nature,” De Veritatis 22:9.

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ST. AUGUSTINE ON GRACE AND PREDESTINATION

De gratia Christi 25, 26:
"For not only has God given us our ability and helps it, but He even works [brings about] willing and acting in us; not that we do not will or that we do not act, but that without His help we neither will anything good nor do it."
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De gratia et libero arbitrio 16, 32:
"It is certain that we will when we will; but He brings it about that we will good. . . . It is certain that we act when we act, but He brings it about that we act, PROVIDING MOST EFFECTIVE POWERS TO THE WILL."

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Similarly, the Council of Orange Canon 25 states, "In every good work, it is not we who begin … but He (God) first inspires us." (#329.2)

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CCC 2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace PRECEDES, PREPARES, and ELICITS the free response of man. …”
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In other words, when God commands, He capacities the hearer to respond.
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Our cooperation is produced (not just enabled) by God’s operation.

Yet the ability to respond is also His gift.
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God bless you AveOTheotokos And God bless every readers of the CAF.

Latin

 

[Debbie_Kono]

I DO disagree with the Pope on chapter 8’s infamous footnote.

Which is why he is so very dangerous and MUST answer the dubia. What will happen if and when another Pope Pius X is in Peter’s Chair? Will we be allowed to disagree with him too?

 

[AveOTheotokos]

Your selection of partial quotes omits the overall picture. Your understanding of Predestination from a Catholic perspective is somewhat distorted. Yes, the elect will not be snatched away, but not all are members of the elect The elect are predestined in that God already knows that they are elect, that they will cooperate with His will, before they are created. God knows all things, potential, actualized, future, things that will not be, etc…

God does not overwhelm us with Grace to override our free will. This would obliterate the ability of us to freely choose to love Him. If He did this, he would be a tyrant.

I suggest you take a look at the video I posted on Hell, as well as Fr. Mike Schmitz talk on “The Four Last Things: Death, Judgement, Heaven, Hell”

Here is some more reading that may help you to correct some of the erroneous assumptions and slants present in your position:

From the very beginning of the Catholic Encyclopaedia entry on Predestination:

Predestination (Latin præ, destinare), taken in its widest meaning, is every Divine decree by which God, owing to His infallible prescience of the future, has appointed and ordained from eternity all events occurring in time, especially those which directly proceed from, or at least are influenced by, man’s free will. It includes all historical facts, as for instance the appearance of Napoleon or the foundation of the United States, and particularly the turning-points in the history of supernatural salvation, as the mission of Moses and the Prophets, or the election of Mary to the Divine Motherhood. Taken in this general sense, predestination clearly coincides with Divine Providence and with the government of the world, which do not fall within the scope of this article (see DIVINE PROVIDENCE).
Notion of predestination

Theology restricts the term to those Divine decrees which have reference to the supernatural end of rational beings, especially of man. Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost through their own fault, there must exist a twofold predestination: (a) one to heaven for all those who die in the state of grace; (b) one to the pains of hell for all those who depart in sin or under God’s displeasure. However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine "reprobation", so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect.

Predestined for Freedom | Catholic Answers Magazine

 

[AveOTheotokos]

The Catholic dogma​

Reserving the theological controversies for the next section, we deal here only with those articles of faith relating to predestination and reprobation, the denial of which would involve heresy.

The reprobation of the damned​

We may now briefly summarize the whole Catholic doctrine, which is in harmony with our reason as well as our moral sentiments. According to the doctrinal decisions of general and particular synods, God infallibly foresees and immutably preordains from eternity all future events (cf. Denzinger, n. 1784), all fatalistic necessity, however, being barred and human liberty remaining intact (Denz., n. 607). Consequently man is free whether he accepts grace and does good or whether he rejects it and does evil (Denz., n. 797).
ust as it is God’s true and sincere will that all men, no one excepted, shall obtain eternal happiness, so, too, Christ has died for all (Denz., n. 794), not only for the predestined (Denz., n. 1096), or for the faithful (Denz., n. 1294), though it is true that in reality not all avail themselves of the benefits of redemption (Denz., n. 795).
Though God preordained both eternal happiness and the good works of the elect (Denz., n. 322), yet, on the other hand, He predestined no one positively to hell, much less to sin (Denz., nn. 200, 816). Consequently, just as no one is saved against his will (Denz., n. 1363), so the reprobate perish solely on account of their wickedness (Denz., nn. 318, 321). God foresaw the everlasting pains of the impious from all eternity, and preordained this punishment on account of their sins (Denz., n. 322), though He does not fail therefore to hold out the grace of conversion to sinners (Denz., n. 807), or pass over those who are not predestined (Denz., n. 827).
As long as the reprobate live on earth, they may be accounted true Christians and members of the Church, just as on the other hand the predestined may be outside the pale of Christianity and of the Church (Denz., nn. 628, 631). Without special revelation no one can know with certainty that he belongs to the number of the elect (Denz., nn. 805 sq., 825 sq.).

 

[o_mlly]

Is certified as not contradicting Church teaching. Some can’t go if all are saved.

You cite an anonymous author as a magisterial authority in this tract? I think not. And, you still throw up yet another strawman. Read the posts (again!). I am waiting for a citation that supports another psoter’s claim that the Church teaches that “not all will be saved.” Nothing yet.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

Then you aren’t reading.

Also, why are you on the Catholic Answers Forums if you reject the materials it publishes?

 

[o_mlly]

Then you aren’t reading

Your personal biblical interpretations of scripture and various other bloggers are not magisterial. The Catholic religion is not a hobby.

Pronouncements from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith are magisterial. Do you have anything that even suggests “not all will be saved”? I think not.

 

[o_mlly]

Also, why are you on the Catholic Answers Forums if you reject the materials it publishes?

Baiting? Why can you not cite a magisterial document that supports your claim “not all will be saved?”

The answer is because no such teaching exists. The Church teaches that the economy of salvation is ultimately a mystery. What she does know and professes as binding on Catholics is summarized in the 1995 Catechism. Suggest you read Article 12.

 

[NoelFitz]

I am pleased that this thread has elicited so much interest.
But in the OP I raised the issue of polarization in the Church, and a wish that there should be less divisiveness in the Church. This issue was ignored, but the other concern about Pope Francis and all being saved created more interest.
But I am getting lost now, as the focus seems to be blurred.
Who are contributors who claim Catholics can hold all will be saved? Who disagrees? Does the Pope really believe all will be saved?

I believed, following Hans Urs von Balthasar, that Catholics can believe all MAY be saved.

If people end up in hell, I cannot see how God is good.
But I see things from a human viewpoint, I do not understand the mind of God.

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How inscrutable are his judgments and how unsearchable his ways! “For who has known the mind of the Lord or who has been his counselor?”
(Rom. 11:33-34 NAB).

 

[AveOTheotokos]

Council of Florence:

Session 7—4 September 1439

[Decree of the council of Florence against the synod at Basel]

Eugenius, bishop, servant of the servants of God, for an everlasting record. Moses, the man of God, was zealous for the well-being of the people entrusted to him. He feared that God’s wrath would be roused against them if they followed Korah, Dathan and Abiram in their seditious schism. Therefore he said to the whole people, at the Lord’s command: depart from the tents of these wicked men and touch nothing of theirs, lest you be involved in their sins. For he had perceived, under the Lord’s inspiration, that those seditious and schismatic men would incur a grievous retribution, as was demonstrated afterwards when even the earth could not bear with them but by God’s just judgment swallowed them up, so that they fell alive into hell.

What about what I posted from the Catholic Encyclopaedia, which cites Denzinger? Or do you reject his assmbly of the dogmatic pronouncements and decisions of the Councils of the Church and Popes as well?

Lumen Gentium:

#48 Indeed since we know neither the day nor the hour it is necessary to keep vigil constantly, as the Lord warned us, so that, having completed the one course of our earthly life we may merit to enter the marriage banquet with Him and be numbered among the blessed (cf. Matt. 25:31-46) and so that we not be commanded, like evil and lazy servants, to descend to eternal fire (cf. Matt. 25:41) in the exterior darkness where there will be ‘weeping and the gnashing of teeth’ (Matt. 22:13 and 25:30). For, before we reign gloriously with Christ, all of us will stand before the "tribunal of Christ, so that each may give an account of what he has done in the body, whether good or bad" (2 Cor. 5:10) and at the end of the world “those who have done good will go to the resurrection of life, those indeed who have done evil will go to the resurrection of judgment” (John 5:29; cf. Matt. 25:46).

Pronouncements from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith are magisterial. Do you have anything that even suggests “not all will be saved”? I think not.

Instruction Concerning Eschatology, issued by the CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH, May, 1979:

The Church, faithful to the New Testament and Tradition, believes in the happiness of the elect who will one day be with Christ. She believes that there will be eternal punishment for the sinner who will be denied the vision of God, and that this punishment will affect the whole being of the sinner. She believes in the possibility of a purification for the elect before they see God, a purification altogether different from the punishment of the damned. This is what the Church means when speaking of Hell and Purgatory."

Is it okay to quote Aquinas?
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5094.htm

Wherefore in order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful to them and that they may render more copious thanks to God for it, they are allowed to see perfectly the sufferings of the damned.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

Aquinas:

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5099.htm

The everlasting punishment of the wicked will not be altogether useless. For they are useful for two purposes. First, because thereby the Divine justice is safeguarded which is acceptable to God for its own sake. Hence Gregory says (Dial. iv): “Almighty God on account of His loving kindness delights not in the torments of the unhappy, but on account of His justice. He is for ever unappeased by the punishment of the wicked.” Secondly, they are useful, because the elect rejoice therein, when they see God’s justice in them, and realize that they have escaped them. Hence it is written (Psalm 57:12): “The just shall rejoice when he shall see the revenge,” etc., and (Isaiah 66:24): “They,” namely the wicked, “shall be a loathsome sight* to all flesh,” namely to the saints, as a gloss says. [“Ad satietatem visionis,” which St. Thomas takes to signify being satiated with joy; Cf. Supplement:94:3]. Gregory expresses himself in the same sense (Dial. iv): “The wicked are all condemned to eternal punishment, and are punished for their own wickedness. Yet they will burn to some purpose, namely that the just may all both see in God the joys they receive, and perceive in them the torments they have escaped: for which reason they will acknowledge themselves for ever the debtors of Divine grace the more that they will see how the evils which they overcame by its assistance are punished eternally.”

Canons Against Origen:

Can. 9. If anyone says or holds that the punishment of the demons and of impious men is temporary, and that it will have an end at some time, that is to say, there will be a complete restoration of the demons or of impious men, let him be anathema.

COUNCIL OF QUIERSY * 853

(Against Gottschalk and the Predestinarians)

Redemption and Grace *

Chap. 3. Omnipotent God wishes all men without exception to be saved[1 Tim. 2:4 ] although not all will be saved. However, that certain ones are saved, is the gift of the one who saves; that certain ones perish, however, is the deserved punishment of those who perish.

 

[AveOTheotokos]

COUNCIL OF VALENCE * III 855

Can. 2. We faithfully hold that “God foreknows and has foreknown eternally both the good deeds which good men will do, and the evil which evil men will do,” because we have that word of Scripture which says: “Eternal God, who are the witness of all things hidden, who knew all things before they are” [ Dan. 13:42]; and it seems right to hold “that the good certainly have known that through His grace they would be good, and that through the same grace they would receive eternal rewards; that the wicked have known that through their own malice they would do evil deeds and that through His justice they would be condemned by eternal punishment”;* so that according to the Psalmist: “Because power belongs to God and mercy to the Lord, so that He will render to each man according to his works” [ Ps. 61:12 f.], and as apostolic doctrine holds: “To them indeed, who according to patience in good works, seek glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life; but to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man doing evil” [Rom. 2:7 ff.]. In the same sense, this same one says elsewhere: "In the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of His power, in a flame of fire, giving vengeance to them who do not know God, and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall suffer eternal punishment in destruction . . . when He shall come to be glorified in His Saints, and to be made wonderful in all them who have believed [2 Thess. 1:7 ff.]. Certainly neither (do we believe) that the foreknowledge of God has placed a necessity on any wicked man, so that he cannot be different, but what that one would be from his own will, as God, who knew all things before they are, He foreknew from His omnipotent and immutable Majesty. “Neither do we believe that anyone is condemned by a previous judgment on the part of God but by reason of his own iniquity.” * “Nor (do we believe) that the wicked thus perish because they were not able to be good; but because they were unwilling to be good, they have remained by their own vice in the mass of damnation either by reason of original sin or even by actual sin.”

Confession of Faith, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215:

…He will come at the end of time to judge the living and the dead, to render to every person according to his works, both to the reprobate and to the elect. All of them will rise with their own bodies, which they now wear, so as to receive according to their deserts, whether these be good or bad; for the latter perpetual punishment with the devil, for the former eternal glory with Christ.