Allah is the One God of Abraham

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Publisher:
Again…what does the Magisterium say?
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I already answer this a few posts ago.
 
BelFarfalla said:
The “Magisterium”, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that Muslims worship the same God. The issue is not which God, as there is only One God. The issue is that some of the things that Muslims believe about God are misguided at best.

You are right that for Catholics that should settle it. If a Catholic does not agree, then contemplation on the topic might be in order.
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So I’m assuming that since the issue is not settled, at least from the posts on this thread, Catholics can disregard the teachings of the Magisterium on any given subject with which they disagree?

On any other subject it seems there is almost a “pride” that the CC has the Magisterium to clear up misconceptions…but on this topic, they don’t hold much 'teaching authority"…(I’m not being disrespectful…I’m trying to drive home a point…for Catholics the issue would appear to be settled as to whether Muslims and Catholics worship the same God…the answer is “YES, they worship the same God.”)
 
BelFarfalla said:
No where in the Bible does it say that there are other true gods. What the bible says is they are false gods, figments of people’s imaginations.
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No where in the Bible does it say that false gods are peoples imaginations. geese, Did god say you shall imagine no other God but me? No in fact in the story of the exodus the God of moses (our God) did not prove the other gods non existant but only not Him and not the one True God. I origianlly posted this because the person said in effect that other Gods do not exist. Wheather or not they exist or not i.e Shiva, Vishnu, or any other proffessed god, They are not the one True god, they may very well be figures of someones imagination, they may even be real, but we know that God does not allow thier worship.
I believe in God he Father almighty, In jesus Christ His only Son, And in the Holy spirit. That is my God… Any other god is false, wrong, and can only be eveil, that includes allah, The dead, removed god of the muslims. My God is three in one, that is His fullness, you cant just worship one part because then you are not worshiping my God. Jesus lives, allah lies and is dead.
 
Potato1 said:
No where in the Bible does it say that false gods are peoples imaginations. geese, Did god say you shall imagine no other God but me? No in fact in the story of the exodus the God of moses (our God) did not prove the other gods non existant but only not Him and not the one True God. I origianlly posted this because the person said in effect that other Gods do not exist. Wheather or not they exist or not i.e Shiva, Vishnu, or any other proffessed god, They are not the one True god, they may very well be figures of someones imagination, they may even be real, but we know that God does not allow thier worship.
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If you are a monotheist, by definition you cannot believe that other Gods actually exist. If you believe that other Gods actually exist, but choose to worship only one God exclusively, you are a henotheist. If you believe that other Gods actually exist and worship more than one of them, you are a polytheist.
 
There is a well asked and answered question in the Ask a Apologist section that is relavent to the OP.

Specifically:
Muslims believe that the Qur’an is divine revelation; the Catholic Church does not share that belief. Islam claims that it descends from Abraham; the Church recognizes that Islam makes such a claim:
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Publisher said:
So I’m assuming that since the issue is not settled, at least from the posts on this thread, Catholics can disregard the teachings of the Magisterium on any given subject with which they disagree?

On any other subject it seems there is almost a “pride” that the CC has the Magisterium to clear up misconceptions…but on this topic, they don’t hold much 'teaching authority"…(I’m not being disrespectful…I’m trying to drive home a point…for Catholics the issue would appear to be settled as to whether Muslims and Catholics worship the same God…the answer is “YES, they worship the same God.”)
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I think that most Catholics just have not looked up this topic in the CCC. here is the extent of what the CCC says about Muslims.
CCC - 841:The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
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scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#841

This basically says that the RCC does not question the FAITH of Muslism. We can however question the teachings, laws, dogma, doctrine of Isalm. I believe this is the correct way to look at it.
 
If the magesterium says so, then so do I. What about those of you fellow Catholics who have been disagreeing vehemently about the Allah/God controversy. Are you changing your mind?
 
Pjs2ejs said:
If the magesterium says so, then so do I. What about those of you fellow Catholics who have been disagreeing vehemently about the Allah/God controversy. Are you changing your mind?
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I don’t think that the CCC’s position on Islam is an infallible dogma (though I do appreciate that position as a socially positive one).
 
BelFarfalla said:
I think that most Catholics just have not looked up this topic in the CCC. here is the extent of what the CCC says about Muslims.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm#841

This basically says that the RCC does not question the FAITH of Muslism. We can however question the teachings, laws, dogma, doctrine of Isalm. I believe this is the correct way to look at it.
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I will concede a point, but not the match. I agree with the Church fully in this regard. Where you have concluded the underlined in your post; I conclude differently and can appreciate the caution of the Church, and the care you and Pjs2ejs express toward Her integrity. I share that.

We should not assume what it basically says, but understand what it/they specifically say…and does not say.

This debate and conclusion is sound- with a caveat.
Vatican Council II and Pope John Paul II have taught rightly that in spite of their disbelief in the Incarnation and the Trinity, Muslims cannot justly be classified as idolaters. Allah—nothing other than the Arabic word for God—cannot be equated with Baal, Zeus, Ashtaroth, Krishna, Aphrodite, and the other local, finite, false deities of pagan polytheists. The nature of Islam is more that of a heresy—an offshoot of Christianity and Judaism that retains the basic monotheistic concept of the one true Creator God. In short, although Muslim worship, which includes a flat denial of Christ’s divinity, is not in itself fitting, God-pleasing, or salvific in character, the object of that defective worship—that is, the Being toward whom it is directed—is nevertheless the true God, imperfectly understood, as distinct **from a disguised demon **or a nonexistent figure of myth or legend.
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The name Allah is qualified to be benign with no reference to the historical pre-Islamic pagan god allah. This does not disqualify its historical influence in Islam however.

The first bolded statement qualifies the limit to which Mohammedans know God as Catholics do, and thus to that limit only does the second bolded statement merit its qualifier. That is where I concede my point, though wickedly misguided, their worship is to God.

The third bolded statement makes clear that the qualified name of Allah, limited to the qualified limit of Truth in Islam as the Church limits agreement toward Islam, is not to be confused with much if anything else about that faith that would soil our own faith by that limited agreement/association.

When Allah is used in that qualified sense I will agree they are the same Creator God be it by Catholic/Christians around the world as well as Muslims to that limited degree. When Allah is used in that qualified sense as the god of Mohammed giving the words of the Koran, I cannot agree it is the same Creator God.

I believe Mohammad in one thing only. I believe he was visited and influenced by a spirit, but it was not Gabriel for the Koran does not identify the Archangel specifically, and the Qur’an is not the literal Word of the qualified Allah or Creator God- the Father, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit revealed to Mohammad through Gabriel. The unqualified Allah/unidentified spirit may well be a disguised demon.

Murder-bombers, terrorists, and Muslim countries that practice Sharia law does so egregiously in the qualified name of Allah; much like Christian abortion-clinic bombers, political, racist, and homophobe murderers do in the name of Christ.

The significant difference is one can be proven by Scripture and Dogma to be acting contrary to the Creator God, and the other is acting truly in accordance with the tenets of its faith.

The Quran is the word of the unqualified Allah which is what all Mohammedans profess. The unqualified Allah is not God. That is the sense in which I continue to state the god Allah of the Koran is not the same as the God Allah in an Arabic Christian bible unless it is qualified. Everytime a Pope speaks about Islam and Muslims, and every Church writing I have found has such qualifiers. Without them, they are not the same entity, and with them makes my conclusion valid.
 
Milliardo said:
What’s sad is that there are some who still cannot accept that Muslims worship the same God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Where we differ, as I keep saying, is on the nature of God.
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But the problem is, is that God cursed Ishmael, saying that his covenant would be with Issac… Ishmael would be a “Wild ***” of a man and his hand will be against everyone,and everyone against him…He is always accredited as the older rejected son in the bible,…

Even though Ishmael grew up into a big nation just like God said it dosen’t mean that the covenant is with him… It is with Issac… Thats where Islam splits…

The same thing happened with Esau(Issac’s son who married into Ishmaels cousin), which God hated. The Edomites were accursed … This puts the muslims in even more big of a curse…

And there is no real proof that Muhammed was a real Ishmaelite…and whats even worse, is that theres no proof that the Kaba was built by them… I doubt structures even looked like the Kaba did in Abrahams time…The archeology of the kaba dosen’t correspond to how buildings were built back them
 
Verisimilitude said:
I will concede a point, but not the match. I agree with the Church fully in this regard. Where you have concluded the underlined in your post; I conclude differently and can appreciate the caution of the Church, and the care you and Pjs2ejs express toward Her integrity. I share that.

We should not assume what it basically says, but understand what it/they specifically say…and does not say.

This debate and conclusion is sound- with a caveat.

The name Allah is qualified to be benign with no reference to the historical pre-Islamic pagan god allah. This does not disqualify its historical influence in Islam however.

The first bolded statement qualifies the limit to which Mohammedans know God as Catholics do, and thus to that limit only does the second bolded statement merit its qualifier. That is where I concede my point, though wickedly misguided, their worship is to God.

The third bolded statement makes clear that the qualified name of Allah, limited to the qualified limit of Truth in Islam as the Church limits agreement toward Islam, is not to be confused with much if anything else about that faith that would soil our own faith by that limited agreement/association.

When Allah is used in that qualified sense I will agree they are the same Creator God be it by Catholic/Christians around the world as well as Muslims to that limited degree. When Allah is used in that qualified sense as the god of Mohammed giving the words of the Koran, I cannot agree it is the same Creator God.

I believe Mohammad in one thing only. I believe he was visited and influenced by a spirit, but it was not Gabriel for the Koran does not identify the Archangel specifically, and the Qur’an is not the literal Word of the qualified Allah or Creator God- the Father, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit revealed to Mohammad through Gabriel. The unqualified Allah/unidentified spirit may well be a disguised demon.

Murder-bombers, terrorists, and Muslim countries that practice Sharia law does so egregiously in the qualified name of Allah; much like Christian abortion-clinic bombers, political, racist, and homophobe murderers do in the name of Christ.

The significant difference is one can be proven by Scripture and Dogma to be acting contrary to the Creator God, and the other is acting truly in accordance with the tenets of its faith.

The Quran is the word of the unqualified Allah which is what all Mohammedans profess. The unqualified Allah is not God. That is the sense in which I continue to state the god Allah of the Koran is not the same as the God Allah in an Arabic Christian bible unless it is qualified. Everytime a Pope speaks about Islam and Muslims, and every Church writing I have found has such qualifiers. Without them, they are not the same entity, and with them makes my conclusion valid.
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I agree with this. To me, when I read the CCC, I understand that this is all the underpinning of their carefully worded statement.
 
Pjs2ejs said:
If the magesterium says so, then so do I. What about those of you fellow Catholics who have been disagreeing vehemently about the Allah/God controversy. Are you changing your mind?
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No. Pjs2ejs, did you even read my post? :confused: It seems like you haven’t. In any case, Verisimilitude has just reinforced the points I made, and we are in agreement with the Church.

As a side note, the Vatican’s diplomatic efforts are not dogma, and I shouldn’t have to (and in fact, don’t) agree with their approach on every issue.
 
#44 KarenNC said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Potato1 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
No where in the Bible does it say that false gods are peoples imaginations. geese, Did god say you shall imagine no other God but me? No in fact in the story of the exodus the God of moses (our God) did not prove the other gods non existant but only not Him and not the one True God. I origianlly posted this because the person said in effect that other Gods do not exist. Wheather or not they exist or not i.e Shiva, Vishnu, or any other proffessed god, They are not the one True god, they may very well be figures of someones imagination, they may even be real, but we know that God does not allow thier worship.

If you are a monotheist, by definition you cannot believe that other Gods actually exist. If you believe that other Gods actually exist, but choose to worship only one God exclusively, you are a henotheist. If you believe that other Gods actually exist and worship more than one of them, you are a polytheist.
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If you are a monotheist, and believe that God-created “spirits” can masquerade as “The God” (aka capital “G” God), as well as various supposedly co-equal “gods”, then you are a monotheist who realises that “spirits” can be quite intelligent and “tricky”.

Allah is “THE god” because he called himself so, or had one of his minions do it for him, to that fellow Mamet.

While it’s true that the “typical” moslem does indeed believe in the One God, who IS actually God, the koran is a deceptive counterfeit of God’s “words” told by a great deceiver, probably through a slightly lesser deceiver, to a great dupe.

Why do I believe this? Because Allah rejects the Holy Trinity, which invalidates Allah as being God.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
 
Keikiolu said:
If you are a monotheist, and believe that God-created “spirits” can masquerade as “The God” (aka capital “G” God), as well as various supposedly co-equal “gods”, then you are a monotheist who realises that “spirits” can be quite intelligent and “tricky”.

Allah is “THE god” because he called himself so, or had one of his minions do it for him, to that fellow Mamet.

While it’s true that the “typical” moslem does indeed believe in the One God, who IS actually God, the koran is a deceptive counterfeit of God’s “words” told by a great deceiver, probably through a slightly lesser deceiver, to a great dupe.

Why do I believe this? Because Allah rejects the Holy Trinity, which invalidates Allah as being God.

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.
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I enjoyed that… 👍
 
It is all right to disagree with the Church, especially on non-Christian matters. Who is this nameless Church person who said that the muslim allah is the Christian god? Seems to me the Church is often wrong. This is one such example, IMHO.

You can never convince me that YOUR GOD condones persecution of Christians, and I’m not even a believer.
 
Correction: your god did not condone persecution of Christians. He ordered it to be done.
 
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