Almost walked out of Mass

[NewsTheMan]

NewsTheMan,

While I can appreciate the views of Dr. Carrol, this perspective is independent and not one that is supported by Church teaching. It is simply opinion, with which I perceive that you agree.

Going further into your quote from Card. Arinze, that too, is his personal opinion and not one that is supported by Church teaching. I can cherry-pick from his words, as well, to support a different perspective than the words you highlighted.

The culture of youth and a liturgy geared to them is not going to be filled with gregorian chant, but will most likely have guitars. Understand, please, that I am not promoting the use of guitars at mass, for that is not my preference, either. But can we agree that there occasions when guitar for youth is appropriate, and NOT forbidden by any teaching of our Church?

I suppose so. That is my problem with these things, there are no outright condemnations. However, how can there be? Banning a guitar would be wrong - simply because guitars could have a place. What needs to be understood is that the Mass is not a reflection of culture, but us moving ourselves towards God and lifting ourselves up to Him rather than dragging Him down to us and our musical styles. A Mass which uses guitars improperly is illicit. A “youth Mass” which has music that cannot be distinguished from Protestant music or pop-music or folk music is not suitable.

Of course the documents can be cherry picked from either camp - this is problematic for me. People can play any old music and say “yeah but this really does lift me towards God” and then any further comment will be called “judgmental” because we cannot judge their hearts. I don’t know. It is very hard to say in that regard. However, the point of music is not for entertainment. Nor is it only to lift ourselves up. It is also to glorify God. It must be reverent and show understanding of the context of the Mass.

With that in mind I cannot ever say that a ‘youth Mass’ with guitars is appropriate. There is no such thing as a ‘youth Mass’ unless you are describing those who happen to be at Mass (i.e. it was youthful/there were more young than old). Going down the path of youth Mass leads us to clown Mass, to puppet Mass etc etc etc etc. “Well if this group can have their way, why can’t I!”. Which is not how things should be! We are Catholic before all else.

It is not forbidden. I agree that it is not forbidden. Anything more and I get uncomfortable. I’m making points all over the place - I hate this topic of guitars at Mass.

 

[Sirach2]

It is not forbidden. I agree that it is not forbidden. Anything more and I get uncomfortable. I’m making points all over the place

Thank you.

I hate this topic of guitars at Mass.

I don’t think any of us missed your point here. Gotcha!

 

[NewsTheMan]

Thank you.

No problem. But I will add that just because it is not forbidden it doesn’t make it good or proper. There are no documents which outrightly forbid monkeys doing dances during Mass but that doesn’t mean they are allowed. In any case, hopefully this will be resolved soon enough (and, at the speed that Rome goes, soon here means within the next 100 years).

 

[Sirach2]

No problem. But I will add that just because it is not forbidden it doesn’t make it good or proper.** There are no documents which outrightly forbid monkeys doing dances during Mass but that doesn’t mean they are allowed**. In any case, hopefully this will be resolved soon enough (and, at the speed that Rome goes, soon here means within the next 100 years).

Now that’s really applying a broad brush, isn’t It? You are unfortunately not the ultimate judge of what is “good or proper.” I reserve that right to your particular sensibilities; however, you are misinforming the faithful with strong innuendo such as this attached to your sensibility.

From the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy: (Pay attention to #37)

1. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.
   But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html
　
37. Even in the liturgy, the Church has no wish to impose a rigid uniformity in matters which do not implicate the faith or the good of the whole community; rather does she respect and foster the genius and talents of the various races and peoples. Anything in these peoples’ way of life which is not indissolubly bound up with superstition and error she studies with sympathy and, if possible, preserves intact. Sometimes in fact she admits such things into the liturgy itself, so long as they harmonize with its true and authentic spirit.

1. The competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, must, in this matter, carefully and prudently consider which elements from the traditions and culture of individual peoples might appropriately be admitted into divine worship. Adaptations which are judged to be useful or necessary should when be submitted to the Apostolic See, by whose consent they may be introduced.

Let’s rest this. We are not going to see eye to eye, but we do need to avoid giving the impression that what WE dislike is forbidden or improper.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Can guitars be dignified?

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Just because it’s not forbidden doesn’t mean it should be done. There are a lot of things which are not forbidden that are not suitable for a Holy Mass. That’s if you want to convey that it is holy.

We should be think about how best to glorify God, not what we can get away with.

 

[manualman]

Good points. There is an attitude (prevalent on CAF too) that if you so much as talk badly about a Mass that is rife with abuse that you are a judgmental Pharisee know-it-all who wasn’t concentrating on Jesus. That if you aren’t celebrating the irreverence and protestant-inspired worship styles you’re a good-for-nothing judger of souls.

I’ll take that as aimed at me since I’m the one that specifically referenced that Scripture passage. At a certain point of extreme abuse, you become entirely right. But don’t forget that it was JESUS who made that quote in the bible and the pharisee probably knew what he was talking about when identifying people as ongoing sinners. They probably were! But by focusing on the failure of others, the problem wasn’t that he was incorrect, the problem was his attitude. He felt that the sins of other people made him look all that much better to God and Jesus set him in his place

So are you here rebuking Jesus and vacating his lesson of any meaning? What DOES that passage mean to you? How should it be applied?

I maintain that anywhere and anytime humans participate in the liturgy, there are going to be problems with how it is done. The key to being a joyful follower of Christ in this circumstance is to always keep my own failures and sinfulness in mind when I notice the failures of others. The OP noted some actual problems. But ones worthy of walking out over? I think not. We owed our master a great debt we could never pay and he forgive it for us. The least we can do is forgive priests, liturgists and musicians minor offenses like those cited here as well.

 

[NewsTheMan]

I’ll take that as aimed at me

Sorry mate, didn’t even have you in mind. First time I can remember you posting in this thread

I maintain that anywhere and anytime humans participate in the liturgy, there are going to be problems with how it is done.

Wrong. That is why we have rubrics, missals, instructions. When done properly, there will be no problems. It is actually very, very easy. It’s like driving a car on the road. Follow the rules and you’ll do well.

 

[manualman]

Well regardless of the intent, I DID bring up the Jesus’ discussion of the pharisee who prayed thanks that he wasn’t like ‘those sinners.’

What DOES that passage mean and how should it be applied?

 

[NewsTheMan]

Well regardless of the intent, I DID bring up the Jesus’ discussion of the pharisee who prayed thanks that he wasn’t like ‘those sinners.’

What DOES that passage mean and how should it be applied?

Probably a question best for the Scripture sub-forum?

 

[YoungTradCath]

There are going to be occasional mistakes with liturgies, and that’s fine and sinless. But I challenge you to find a church where priests take the time to painstakingly perform liturgies with all in their power yet still regularly “mess up.” It doesn’t happen, unless the priest has a motor or mental disorder or something, and I’m being quite serious here. Even in the cases where a priest does make a mistake, I feel confident in saying that if he later realizes that he made a mistake, a good priest will do all in his power to ensure that it doesn’t happen again in the future.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

May I add, too, that it frequently happens that the priest is just as disgruntled with the hymns the music director has chosen, and that he seldom previews or ok’s. Does he get ruffled in the middle of mass and walk out??? I customarily sat in the front near one of my former pastors, and you could see his hair standing up over some of the poor cantors and music choices that the director imposed on the congregation.

Let’s extend some charity in this regard and refrain from judging this particular liturgy as being filled with abuse.

I think that when priests are afraid to stand up to cantors and demands of the congregation and to exercise their authority is when we should admit that perhaps there is a problem.

My points, and those of News The Man, were more general about often encountered attitudes, rather than responses to this particular case. But although they are general I think they address a number of problems in a valid way.

 

[Morgan_Hiver]

Mass never was even about a personal preference. We have soooo many styles of OF now that it has become the norm to pick and choose which one you’d like to go to this week and next week. It’s become just as easy to pick which greasy fastfood restaurant you’ll be eating tonight “I’m feeling like a psychedelic mass today, sweetie! I love how they changed the lyrics to Darkside of The Moon and renamed it Light Inside The Tomb”. All this talk of personal preference really goes beyond the mass. It extended into our beliefs too and I’m guilty of it as well but I definitely try to see things the way God wants. Anyway…guitar could be great in a chamber setting, as heard in some Taize but most church guitarist aren’t capable of fingerstyle…they just strum strum strum. However, guitar could really never be used in the EF. Chant is so drawn out and guitar is not an instrument that sustains very long at all. I’d like to hear the hurdy-gurdy used again; so much better than the organ. But to get back on topic, music should reflect the sacrifice and the NO songs don’t do that.

Just curious, all the people that keep the “what might be right for you might not be right for some” attitude, how would you feel if your mother, wife, or child died a horrible death and at the funeral the music director and priest took it upon themselves to play circus music on kazoos and dressed as angels and devils? It was a valid funeral, no?

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Just curious, all the people that keep the “what might be right for you might not be right for some” attitude, how would you feel if your mother, wife, or child died a horrible death and at the funeral the music director and priest took it upon themselves to play circus music on kazoos and dressed as angels and devils? It was a valid funeral, no?

And dressing up is not explicitely forbidden. So why not?

 

[YoungTradCath]

And dressing up is not explicitely forbidden. So why not?

But dressing up isn’t “weird” or “questionable to do” at a funeral or even mass in general.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

But dressing up isn’t “weird” or “questionable to do” at a funeral or even mass in general.

I meant dressing up in costumes (clowns, demons,angels, etc) as the poster above suggested. That would be quite weird, questionable and extremely disrespectful. But allowed because it is not explicitely forbidden. This is the logic some follow when it comes to the way we should celebrate mass.

I often wonder why this freedom to decide does not inspire people to do something beautiful. To build beautiful churches rather than ugly ones, to want beautiful music rather than folksy songs. I just don’t believe people are to be trusted when it comes to these things because for some reason we go for what is bad and tacky. And when bad and tacky creep up into what is sacred… the result is scary. People start offering it up because they suffer at mass. This cannot be justified imo.

 

[NewsTheMan]

It’s absolutely insane, or perhaps telling, that instead of trying to fix abuses and banal novelties at the Mass people instead start ranting about how you should grow in holiness and focus on yourself. It’s the same line people use when justifying their own sin. The old “You do you and I do me”. Problem is, that never solves anything. Keeping your head down does nothing. It is insulting to God and His Church to do that. Yet people talk as if suffering the abuses is the preferred thing. “Hey maybe you will become a Saint because of it so lets make all our Masses sacrilegious and everybody will grow in holiness!” Uh, what?

Anyway, here is a great article by Fr. Chad Ripperger FSSP that should interest some here.

 

[TimothyH]

It’s absolutely insane, or perhaps telling, that instead of trying to fix abuses and banal novelties at the Mass people instead start ranting about how you should grow in holiness and focus on yourself. It’s the same line people use when justifying their own sin. The old “You do you and I do me”. Problem is, that never solves anything. Keeping your head down does nothing. It is insulting to God and His Church to do that. Yet people talk as if suffering the abuses is the preferred thing. “Hey maybe you will become a Saint because of it so lets make all our Masses sacrilegious and everybody will grow in holiness!” Uh, what?

Anyway, here is a great article by Fr. Chad Ripperger FSSP that should interest some here.

Insulting the way the priest speaks, accusing the vocalist of caring only about sounding like a rock star, and pointing out the guitarists mistakes anonymously on an internet message board is not “fixing abuses.”

Keeping your head down does nothing. You are absolutely correct. But pointing out the faults of others is worse. Discussions are fine, even healthy, but detraction is still a sin, and some seem to be on the edge.

-Tim-

 

[rbiel]

It’s absolutely insane, or perhaps telling, that instead of trying to fix abuses and banal novelties at the Mass people instead start ranting about how you should grow in holiness and focus on yourself. It’s the same line people use when justifying their own sin. The old “You do you and I do me”. Problem is, that never solves anything. Keeping your head down does nothing. It is insulting to God and His Church to do that. Yet people talk as if suffering the abuses is the preferred thing. “Hey maybe you will become a Saint because of it so lets make all our Masses sacrilegious and everybody will grow in holiness!” Uh, what?

Anyway, here is a great article by Fr. Chad Ripperger FSSP that should interest some here.

I’m with you. The following story is illustrative and emblematic of many similar and different stories

I went to a parish once to pray the rosary before mass some 45 minutes early.
Du to a situation, I needed special time with the Lord.
The band was setting up, the band setup and did their necessary practice etc, then the band fiddled around , then the band gossipped and talked loudly, then the guitarist did some practice riffs on the guitar that had nothing to do with church music, the drummer did some ditties on the drums. Then they all laughed and guffawed some more up there.
All before mass.
I finally got up and talked to one of the veterans there doing something in the sacristy. She empathised, but this was SOP ., standard operating procedure. A Standard Operating Procedure where a pastor is not involved in the finer details of his parish. I can only imagine the priest is afraid to say anything, lest these band members wont volunteer anymore. But I doubt that sensibility is the whole of it.
Gods people have been silent, we all need to speak up for respect of the rules, instead of respect for ‘let others do their own thing and all complainers should suffer like someone in a religious order’.

Thankfully, I wasnt in church praying to the Lord over a tragedy.
The 15-30 minutes before Mass is reserved and encouraged for us to get ready for the Mass/Eucharist.

 

[Aeolian]

I apologize if this post sounds too confrontational. That is not my intention.

I attended Mass yesterday evening at the parish I used to attend before moving out of the area. A family member passed away yesterday afternoon so I wanted to offer some prayer for her. It was your standard “modern” Mass nowadays, with a guitar, bass, and (irritatingly) drums. The parish I go to now had these things but managed to be respectfully subdued with them…

I have never been to a Mass when there were drums (except tympani), a base or an electric guitar (acoustic, yes.) Not ever in my life. But I have been to some unorthodox Masses. No matter what they were valid which means I was present at Calvary as Jesus Christ was crucified for our sins. I was also able to partake of His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. No matter how difficult Mass might become, it’s nothing like what He did for us. Pray on that next time you begin feeling angry or the desire to leave Mass.