already downhearted

[Mattjolley]

okay, so the 14th september should have represented a day where restrictions on the latin mass were lifted and that the mass could be brought into a parish with greater ease, if enough people wanted it there.

Unfortunately, what I am sensing from many of the posts on here is that people are finding it hard to convince their parishes, or priests, that the latin mass is now a regular occurrance, and that it can be allowed. Some people just arent getting the message, even if it came from the Pope!

I’m saying this after discussing with my Priest last sunday that now the motu proprio is in effect, will there be more latin masses in my local area. all he said was he didnt think so, so i told him where the nearest ones were to us, and he said that theyre probably my best bets.

However, i refuse to go to the nearest one, which is 20 miles away (quite far for a mass in England, i know americans see distances differently due to the size of their country, hehe) because the last time I ventured there my car was broken into.

To sum up, I’m sick of the apparent ignorance held by parishoners and Priests over this incredible gift the holy father has bestowed upon us. what can i do, short of screaming from the top of my lungs at a sunday high mass that we are actually allowed to go to a latin mass I mention it to my Priest and he shrugs it off and says ‘go back to the place your car was trashed’, well, effectively. I think its just easier for them to ignore the MP and carry on regardless. Gosh, if there was huge demand in my parish, I honestly dont know what they’d do! Since we are a parish with our priest sent from the Order of St. Benedict, you’d expect them to be rather learned, possibly some of them do speak latin. Just another thought.

Oh im sorry for my rants, i guess its just annoying me right now.

Matt

 

[Hellisreal]

I was told you would need at least 200 or so requesting it in a parish and then they would study the matter.

I think that is reasonable.

 

[seremina]

okay, so the 14th september should have represented a day where restrictions on the latin mass were lifted and that the mass could be brought into a parish with greater ease, if enough people wanted it there.

Unfortunately, what I am sensing from many of the posts on here is that people are finding it hard to convince their parishes, or priests, that the latin mass is now a regular occurrance, and that it can be allowed. Some people just arent getting the message, even if it came from the Pope!

I’m saying this after discussing with my Priest last sunday that now the motu proprio is in effect, will there be more latin masses in my local area. all he said was he didnt think so, so i told him where the nearest ones were to us, and he said that theyre probably my best bets.

However, i refuse to go to the nearest one, which is 20 miles away (quite far for a mass in England, i know americans see distances differently due to the size of their country, hehe) because the last time I ventured there my car was broken into.

To sum up, I’m sick of the apparent ignorance held by parishoners and Priests over this incredible gift the holy father has bestowed upon us. what can i do, short of screaming from the top of my lungs at a sunday high mass that we are actually allowed to go to a latin mass I mention it to my Priest and he shrugs it off and says ‘go back to the place your car was trashed’, well, effectively. I think its just easier for them to ignore the MP and carry on regardless. Gosh, if there was huge demand in my parish, I honestly dont know what they’d do! Since we are a parish with our priest sent from the Order of St. Benedict, you’d expect them to be rather learned, possibly some of them do speak latin. Just another thought.

Oh im sorry for my rants, i guess its just annoying me right now.

Matt

I know how you feel, but please cheer up. You can watch TLM at any time. Its updated daily. Just follow along with your missal. On Sundays, you can go to your usual Catholic Church and fulfill your Sunday obligation and receive communion. Here’s the link…

latinmass-ctm.org/mass/online.htm

I hope this helps.

 

[markadm]

Matt,

I sympathise. Our Parish, whilst I’ve lived here most of my life and have good friends here, really annoys me. The music is awful 70s “liturgical songs”, and the mode of the celebration of the liturgy is devoid of any awe or reverence. It is so utilitarian! Eugh!

(and the children are noisy, and the adults chat! …need I go on?)

My sympathies.

I was told you would need at least 200 or so requesting it in a parish and then they would study the matter.

I think that is reasonable.

Hrmmm… I’m not sure that’s reasonable, but mind you in the UK we generally have smaller congregations so 200 is a big number here. Nevertheless, I have issues with any numerical definition of “a stable group” asking a Priest for the extraordinary form of the Mass. The latin text uses a word which simply cannot be defined by such a number…Priests who are knowledgeable have explained to me that the word could mean just a handful of people, literally!

 

[Hellisreal]

I let management make the rules.

I am in sales.

(I forgot who said that, Sheen maybe…)

 

[rwoehmke]

Apparently lots of folks don’t see it as a gift.

 

[Hellisreal]

Apparently lots of folks don’t see it as a gift.

Like who?

 

[hazmatdude]

Hi Matt.

I too look forward to the return of the latin mass. I see it as part of the new springtime that Pope John Paul II talked about.

I don’t know how old you are but when I was growing up in the 1950’s and early 60’s every mass was filled to overflowing in my little corner of California. Then the liturgy underwent constant experimentation and innovations in the spirit of Vatican II and mass attendance plummeted 30% or more. By 1968 my own family left the church. When I came home after 32 years my first mass was unrecognizable from any I had ever attended. As unnerving as that was my first holy day mass was horrifying. I quickly learned that now every Christmas, Easter and holy day mass is bilingual and sometimes even trilingual and we are all lost.

My hope is that as the latin mass regains its popularity it will eventually unify us in worship even though around here we are a divided church by language and culture. Until then I will offer up my prayers and this small suffering for the body of Christ which is the church to paraphase Col:1:23.

Try not to be downhearted or disallusioned. We are all sinners including our Bishop’s but we have the sacraments and Christ is our physician. Praise God that we are blessed to be part of his one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

 

[LilyM]

what can i do, short of screaming from the top of my lungs at a sunday high mass that we are actually allowed to go to a latin mass

Surely you could either put a notice in your church’s bulletin asking those who are interested in a TLM to contact you, or set up a table with an actual petition outside the Church next Sunday. Then you could effectively gauge the level of interest.

A second thought - you might do better also putting a notice in the bulletin of the TLM parish asking people who are from your area to contact you if they are interested in setting up a TLM locally (you shouldn’t need to go back there to do so).

Gosh, if there was huge demand in my parish, I honestly dont know what they’d do! Since we are a parish with our priest sent from the Order of St. Benedict, you’d expect them to be rather learned, possibly some of them do speak latin. Just another thought.

They’d probably be sensible and seek help and advice from the other TLM parish who have the knowhow.

There’s much more to the TLM than just learning or knowing Latin by the way - a whole lot more rituals and gestures and such that all have rubrics governing them which have to be learned too, and they’re a lot more stringent and precise than the NO, things really have to be done and said just so by the altar servers and deacons as well as the priest.

 

[deigloriam]

I let management make the rules.

I am in sales.

(I forgot who said that, Sheen maybe…)

Yeah… thats the whole issue. The Holy Father is management at its highest level, so hence the frustration.

 

[Hellisreal]

Yeah… thats the whole issue. The Holy Father is management at its highest level, so hence the frustration.

Can you elaborate?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

okay, so the 14th september should have represented a day where restrictions on the latin mass were lifted and that the mass could be brought into a parish with greater ease, if enough people wanted it there.

Unfortunately, what I am sensing from many of the posts on here is that people are finding it hard to convince their parishes, or priests, that the latin mass is now a regular occurrance, and that it can be allowed. Some people just arent getting the message, even if it came from the Pope!

I’m saying this after discussing with my Priest last sunday that now the motu proprio is in effect, will there be more latin masses in my local area. all he said was he didnt think so, so i told him where the nearest ones were to us, and he said that theyre probably my best bets.

However, i refuse to go to the nearest one, which is 20 miles away (quite far for a mass in England, i know americans see distances differently due to the size of their country, hehe) because the last time I ventured there my car was broken into.

To sum up, I’m sick of the apparent ignorance held by parishoners and Priests over this incredible gift the holy father has bestowed upon us. what can i do, short of screaming from the top of my lungs at a sunday high mass that we are actually allowed to go to a latin mass I mention it to my Priest and he shrugs it off and says ‘go back to the place your car was trashed’, well, effectively. I think its just easier for them to ignore the MP and carry on regardless. Gosh, if there was huge demand in my parish, I honestly dont know what they’d do! Since we are a parish with our priest sent from the Order of St. Benedict, you’d expect them to be rather learned, possibly some of them do speak latin. Just another thought.

Oh im sorry for my rants, i guess its just annoying me right now.

Matt

I asked this in another thread (and I’m asking it respectfully):

What if there simply isn’t that much of a demand? What if the majority of Catholics would simply prefer Mass in their own language (ie, they’ve nothing AGAINST the EF, per se)?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

okay, so the 14th september should have represented a day where restrictions on the latin mass were lifted and that the mass could be brought into a parish with greater ease, if enough people wanted it there.

Unfortunately, what I am sensing from many of the posts on here is that people are finding it hard to convince their parishes, or priests, that the latin mass is now a regular occurrance, and that it can be allowed. Some people just arent getting the message, even if it came from the Pope!

It’s allowed - but it cannot displace, & has not displaced, “ordinary” form of the Roman Rite, which is that of the Pauline reform. (The terms used to distinguish between the revised & pre-conciliar expressions of the Roman Rite are not altogether satisfactory, but there we are).​

Besides, there is no point in allowing something, if there is no one competent to do it. This applies as much to the Liturgy as to anything else. If the priests in a diocese or other jurisdiction cannot offer the Mass in what is now referred to as its “extra-ordinary” form, then there will not be one. And there are many good reasons why this may not be possible. The change of Missals 40 years ago did not take place overnight; far from it: so there is little reason to expect the change now to be quick or smooth: if it should in fact be both, that is something for which those who want that particular expression of the Mass should be grateful.

One trap that needs to be avoided is the attitude of “shopping around” from parish A to parish B so that one can get “the Mass one wants” - the Mass is not primarily for our benefit; we must never allow it to become an expression of “my own spirituality”. It is above all the public worship of the Church as a body, as The Body, offered in the Spirit to the Father through His Son. “What I want” is not the point. “Consumerism” in the Liturgy = possible; bad; not inevitable. (James Hitchcock is very good on this.)

Because we are sinners, our sinfulness is quite capable of disguising itself as zeal for the Liturgy. That way trouble lies - such as the (obvious ?) evil of schism, or that (less obvious ?) of being so concerned for the “mechanics” of the rite, that one forgets what the Eucharist is meant to do in “us who receive it”. (Has no one pointed these things out ? )

It would be such a shame if this gift to the Church were to be spoiled: for the Church, for its unity & charity, for us - & so, for its mission.

I’m saying this after discussing with my Priest last sunday that now the motu proprio is in effect, will there be more latin masses in my local area. all he said was he didnt think so, so i told him where the nearest ones were to us, and he said that theyre probably my best bets.

However, i refuse to go to the nearest one, which is 20 miles away (quite far for a mass in England, i know americans see distances differently due to the size of their country, hehe) because the last time I ventured there my car was broken into.

To sum up, I’m sick of the apparent ignorance held by parishoners and Priests over this incredible gift the holy father has bestowed upon us. what can i do, short of screaming from the top of my lungs at a sunday high mass that we are actually allowed to go to a latin mass I mention it to my Priest and he shrugs it off and says ‘go back to the place your car was trashed’, well, effectively. I think its just easier for them to ignore the MP and carry on regardless.

As an Evangelical might say: “Take it to the Lord in prayer” The form of the rite is less important than its fruitfulness​

Gosh, if there was huge demand in my parish, I honestly dont know what they’d do! Since we are a parish with our priest sent from the Order of St. Benedict, you’d expect them to be rather learned, possibly some of them do speak latin. Just another thought.

Oh im sorry for my rants, i guess its just annoying me right now.

Matt

 

[Hellisreal]

Because we are sinners, our sinfulness is quite capable of disguising itself as zeal for the Liturgy. That way trouble lies - such as the (obvious ?) **evil of **schism, or that (less obvious ?) of being so concerned for the “mechanics” of the rite, that one forgets what the Eucharist is meant to do in “us who receive it”. (Has no one pointed these things out ?

Gottle of Geer

My reply

I did by way of asking for elaboration about Holy Father.

 

[otjm]

okay, so the 14th september should have represented a day where restrictions on the latin mass were lifted and that the mass could be brought into a parish with greater ease, if enough people wanted it there.

Technically yes; in that it no longer required an indult. But it has been about 38 years since most priests who were then ordained have said the Mass; most of forgotten the rubrics. If the average age then was 28 for ordination, and tht would be a priest who had learned the Mass but not said it (or barely), he is now 66; if he had been saying it for 10 years he is now 76. At 76, a good bit is at the minimum rusty, if not forgotten. And the rest, ordained since then, weren’t taught the rubrics.

Unfortunately, what I am sensing from many of the posts on here is that people are finding it hard to convince their parishes, or priests, that the latin mass is now a regular occurrance, and that it can be allowed. Some people just arent getting the message, even if it came from the Pope!

But it is not a regular occurance. For a public Mass, the MP requires “a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition”. If they haven’t been going to either an SSPX Mass or an indult Mass, how do they qualify as “a stable group”? That hasn’t been answered yet.

I’m saying this after discussing with my Priest last sunday that now the motu proprio is in effect, will there be more latin masses in my local area. all he said was he didnt think so, so i told him where the nearest ones were to us, and he said that theyre probably my best bets.

At least for a while, he is probably right.

To sum up, I’m sick of the apparent ignorance held by parishoners and Priests over this incredible gift the holy father has bestowed upon us. what can i do, short of screaming from the top of my lungs at a sunday high mass that we are actually allowed to go to a latin mass I mention it to my Priest and he shrugs it off and says ‘go back to the place your car was trashed’, well, effectively. I think its just easier for them to ignore the MP and carry on regardless. Gosh, if there was huge demand in my parish, I honestly dont know what they’d do! Since we are a parish with our priest sent from the Order of St. Benedict, you’d expect them to be rather learned, possibly some of them do speak latin. Just another thought.

Well, from what you say, it seems that there is not an identifiable stable group. We now have about two generations of people who have never seen an EF; why would they be interested, other than as a curiosity? They have no information to even be interested in. The Pope himself in his letter noted that it would probably not be widespread if for no other reason than that there are few priests who are capable of saying it.

The whole issue is a bit of a Catch - 22; we won’t have many EF Masses if people are not interested, but people will not be interested if there are no Masses to attend.

That is why, in part, it has been suggested that priests can say the Mass privately - that is, as a not regularly scheduled Mass for the parish; and people are welcome to attend if they wish. It may be from that small start that attendance will build to the point of having a large enough stable group that either a Sunday Mass could be added, or one of the regularly scheduled Masses could be the EF.

And JKirk has a point; suppose, just for a minute, that the majority, or even the great majority, prefer Mass in the vernacular? In those circumstances, one would not expect the EF to make much headway. Only time will tell. That, and enought people being exposed to the EF for a long enough time that it can actually be established which one they prefer.

Some people feel that the prayers of the EF are far superior; others feel that the rubrics, which are much more complex, are far superior; but that is mostly within groups who have some experience with the EF. Further, it is not by any means a guarantee; there are those who are old enough to have experienced the EF prior to the OF being introduced who prefer the OF.

Yes, it is a gift. But no, not everyone sees it as a gift, and many simply don’t know much about it.

However, the MP was not written in such a way that it was intended that a bunch of EF Masses be said, and we see who likes what.

 

[retrovert]

I’m 68 years old. Now you know how we felt when they switched to the vernacular. It’s only taken 40 years or thereabouts to get back to the Latin. So be patient and be thankful that you have a priest to offer mass in any language. Remember this is the Catholic Church, so 40 years is warp speed.

 

[Hellisreal]

I’m 68 years old. Now you know how we felt when they switched to the vernacular. It’s only taken 40 years or thereabouts to get back to the Latin. So be patient and be thankful that you have a priest to offer mass in any language. Remember this is the Catholic Church, so 40 years is warp speed.

You are such a wise man.

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

I was told you would need at least 200 or so requesting it in a parish and then they would study the matter.

I think that is reasonable.

YIKES!!!

I don’t even think we have that many in the entire parish, but I could be wrong.

 

[KathleenElsie]

I was told you would need at least 200 or so requesting it in a parish and then they would study the matter.

I think that is reasonable.

200 we don’t get that at every Pauline Mass in some of our parishes. 10 or 11 families (as defined by the local church) is a good start. Of cours since we usually have larger familes it could easily be 70 people or more .

 

[markadm]

Regarding size, if I may quote the venerable Fr Z, “There is no implication in coetus that the number must be “significant”, that is, “large”. A coetus can be very small. The Motu Proprio does not require a minimum number. To impose one would be outside the provisions of the Holy Father.”