already downhearted

[rwoehmke]

Like who?

You guys are the ones citing Bishops and priests for non-compliance. Not me. I am only a placid lay guy happy with what I have and would suppose there are lots of other lay people who feel the same way.

A good solemn high Mass with all the stops pulled out is a beautiful thing. Beats Opera any day. Faith and entertainment satisfied at the same time. Not only that but folks who care make it reverent and uplifting. Who could ask for more?

 

[rwoehmke]

200 we don’t get that at every Pauline Mass in some of our parishes. 10 or 11 families (as defined by the local church) is a good start. Of cours since we usually have larger familes it could easily be 70 people or more .

Takes 120 men to start a new Synagogue and ten men just to form a minyan for daily prayer. Of course some Judiac persuasions count women in the head count.

 

[otjm]

Regarding size, if I may quote the venerable Fr Z, “There is no implication in coetus that the number must be “significant”, that is, “large”. A coetus can be very small. The Motu Proprio does not require a minimum number. To impose one would be outside the provisions of the Holy Father.”

It is easy for somone to sit in their armchair and make decisions. It is true there is no minimum number; there is also the reality of a priest shortage and Canon law (905) which limits the number of Masses a priest can say, as well as the inclination of the parish.

Some places will have a goodly number of people who wish to attend Mass on Sunday under the EF; in those parishes it will most likely be no problem at all.

In some parishes, there will be a large majority who wish to have the OF; given the very real and practical issues of replacing one of the Masses of the OF with an EF, with potentially a significant drop in attendance is simply not living in the real world. In those circumstances, it is much more likely that there may be a combination of parishes cloesly located having one Mass between them, and potentially not by the Pastor.

It will vary by parish and by diocese; there will be some dioceses where there is a much greater need for the EF, and there will be others where there is not. That is just reality. I have been flamed for this, but frankly, if 25 people want a Sunday Mass in the EF where there is, for example my parish, one priest who is saying three Masses on Sunday (the limit in Canon law) and they want an additional Mass, they will have to find someone else to say it; and to presume that with three Masses with 300 to 600 in attendance that they will replace one of those is just not likely. NOTE: I did not say impossible; just not likely. In the same circumstance, if there were somewhere like 100 or 150, then I could very easily see one of the Masses being given in the EF, as there will be other attendees simply because of the time slot. But for all those who want to say that only a few people can have a Mass on Sunday in a large parish, well, there is also a rumor that pigs may fly.

On the other hand, if you have a relatively small parish, those same 25 become more significant in the overall picture.

Even the Pope, in his letter said that the new Missal would remain the ordinary form. “…neither of these {liturgical formation and some knowledge of Latin, ed.} is very often found.” Time will tell, and I suspect it will not tell quickly.

 

[KathleenElsie]

You guys are the ones citing Bishops and priests for non-compliance. Not me. I am only a placid lay guy happy with what I have and would suppose there are lots of other lay people who feel the same way. You are welcome to feel this way it is legitimate. Many of us felt this way in the 1960’ and 1970’s.
A good solemn high Mass with all the stops pulled out is a beautiful thing. A rare Mass. But, one that is wonderful. When I was a teen these were rare even then. Most of the Masses I attended were LOW Mass. Beats Opera any day. Faith and entertainment satisfied at the same time. Maybe but the wonder of the worship is what keeps people longing for it. Not only that but folks who care make it reverent and uplifting. Reverent is the prime concerne of many of us. Who could ask for more? None that I know of./quote]

I pray that any changes for the good of Holy Mother Church are slow and understood by all. I don’t want anyone else to suffer through the wrenching experiences many of us went through after Vat II in the 'SPIRIT" of Vat II.

 

[KathleenElsie]

The quandary is this:

Fewer practicing Catholics, fewer vocations. fewer priests and nuns in the modern church. So what is the cure?

In the smaller (yes I agree with the fact that we are smaller) more traditional parishes there tends to be a higher percentage of vocations. (note I said percentage not number) In our small Catholic homeschool groups we personally know of young men and women that are discerning vocations now for the FSSP and cloistered convents. One young woman entered into the convent two weeks ago.

So, if it is more of the traditional young people that are entering into vocations, then does it not seem to make sense to encourage more traditional style parishes? Just a suggestion.

 

[Hellisreal]

You guys are the ones citing Bishops and priests for non-compliance. Not me. I am only a placid lay guy happy with what I have and would suppose there are lots of other lay people who feel the same way.

A good solemn high Mass with all the stops pulled out is a beautiful thing. Beats Opera any day. Faith and entertainment satisfied at the same time. Not only that but folks who care make it reverent and uplifting. Who could ask for more?

You got me mixed up with someone else. I never cited bishops or priests for non compliance.

Maybe you mixed up one of my posts with someone else, because I say let management decide these things.

*as far as others very shocked by the number 200 or more, yes, my parish is huge.

Really really big. Yes.

 

[rien]

okay, so the 14th september should have represented a day where restrictions on the latin mass were lifted and that the mass could be brought into a parish with greater ease, if enough people wanted it there.

Unfortunately, what I am sensing from many of the posts on here is that people are finding it hard to convince their parishes, or priests, that the latin mass is now a regular occurrance, and that it can be allowed. Some people just arent getting the message, even if it came from the Pope!

I’m saying this after discussing with my Priest last sunday that now the motu proprio is in effect, will there be more latin masses in my local area. all he said was he didnt think so, so i told him where the nearest ones were to us, and he said that theyre probably my best bets.

However, i refuse to go to the nearest one, which is 20 miles away (quite far for a mass in England, i know americans see distances differently due to the size of their country, hehe) because the last time I ventured there my car was broken into.

To sum up, I’m sick of the apparent ignorance held by parishoners and Priests over this incredible gift the holy father has bestowed upon us. what can i do, short of screaming from the top of my lungs at a sunday high mass that we are actually allowed to go to a latin mass I mention it to my Priest and he shrugs it off and says ‘go back to the place your car was trashed’, well, effectively. I think its just easier for them to ignore the MP and carry on regardless. Gosh, if there was huge demand in my parish, I honestly dont know what they’d do! Since we are a parish with our priest sent from the Order of St. Benedict, you’d expect them to be rather learned, possibly some of them do speak latin. Just another thought.

Oh im sorry for my rants, i guess its just annoying me right now.

Matt

Have you ever thought that there was near the call for the TLM that you were told?

IMO, admittedly liberal, the sign-up shhets are emptyu or virtually none.

I think the liberal bishops were too afraid in allowing this. it looks so far like it is turning out to be a whimper.

If the TLM demand isn’t there what does that say? I can’t begin to comment.

 

[the_phoenix]

Have you ever thought that there was near the call for the TLM that you were told?

IMO, admittedly liberal, the sign-up shhets are emptyu or virtually none.

I think the liberal bishops were too afraid in allowing this. it looks so far like it is turning out to be a whimper.

If the TLM demand isn’t there what does that say? I can’t begin to comment.

May I direct your attention to the following thread in the “In the News” section of Catholic Answers?

It’s called "**(Tridentine) Latin Mass Missal Sales DOUBLE!!
**

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2754757#post2754757

Be of good cheer!



~~ the phoenix

 

[Hellisreal]

That may or may not mean anything. Some people, like myself buy things that relate to hot topics from time to time.

The real determining factor would be far more objective.

How many are asking for this? How is your parish handling the request process?

May I direct your attention to the following thread in the “In the News” section of Catholic Answers?

It’s called "**(Tridentine) Latin Mass Missal Sales DOUBLE!!
**

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2754757#post2754757

Be of good cheer!



~~ the phoenix

 

[the_phoenix]

That may or may not mean anything. Some people, like myself buy things that relate to hot topics from time to time.

The real determining factor would be far more objective.

How many are asking for this? How is your parish handling the request process?

And may I direct YOUR attention to THIS thread?

“Updated list of Churches that will/may start celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass after September 14”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=177324

And this is only the first month of the Motu Proprio taking effect … Give it some time, eh? As for me, I rejoice at each and every single new Latin Mass that is taking place because of the Motu Proprio, wherever that Mass may be. May the list continue to grow!

~~ the phoenix

 

[Hellisreal]

If the demand is there, I say Amen!

You dont have to direct me to a thread to support those who wish for this to happen, but you also wont see me “downhearted” if there are not enough to do this in a parish I happen to be stuck in.

I wonder how much weight the Cross was to carry for some.

And may I direct YOUR attention to THIS thread?

“Updated list of Churches that will/may start celebrating the Traditional Latin Mass after September 14”

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=177324

And this is only the first month of the Motu Proprio taking effect … Give it some time, eh? As for me, I rejoice at each and every single new Latin Mass that is taking place because of the Motu Proprio, wherever that Mass may be. May the list continue to grow!

~~ the phoenix

 

[30miller]

Regarding size, if I may quote the venerable Fr Z, “There is no implication in coetus that the number must be “significant”, that is, “large”. A coetus can be very small. The Motu Proprio does not require a minimum number. To impose one would be outside the provisions of the Holy Father.”

You are correct - and I think Fr. Zuhlsdorf (an authority in the Latin language, for those who are not familiar with him) translates coetus as “few as 3” people.
An additional ambiguity in the Motu Proprio is the reference to a “stable” group requesting the Latin Mass. Unfortunately, this is an “opening” as wide as the Lincoln Tunnel for those bishops to go thru who want to make it difficult for those of us who would like to attend the Latin Mass - i.e. a “stable” group will be whatever they say it is.

 

[rien]

I also felt trasditionalists were in for a big disappointment if the TLM was freed. As it should have been. reality is very few care by reports coming in. In the parish near where I live. 2000 families - there have been less than 50 requests for the Mass in latin. Not enough. I agree with the pastor.

IMO the TLM may prove to be a paper tiger…for those expecting it to halt the decline. I don’t see that happening.

 

[rien]

Regarding size, if I may quote the venerable Fr Z, “There is no implication in coetus that the number must be “significant”, that is, “large”. A coetus can be very small. The Motu Proprio does not require a minimum number. To impose one would be outside the provisions of the Holy Father.”

Playing with words IMO. The point is the response by reports so far has been minimal. I always felt traditionalists were wrong assuming many would flood back if given the chance. it just does not seem to be happening.

 

[Joannm]

Playing with words IMO. The point is the response by reports so far has been minimal. I always felt traditionalists were wrong assuming many would flood back if given the chance. it just does not seem to be happening.

I asked my pastor today how many of our parishioners have requested it and he said one person did and the person had never been to a Latin Mass and was just curious. He directed her to the parish that offers it every week.

 

[RomanRevert]

Give it time… it will come. We can’t expect the Church to turn on a dime and impose this on everyone seemingly overnight (oh wait … that already happened 40 years ago). Anyway, give it time, once people have the opportunity to see the beauty and reverance of the TLM vs the banality of the NO, they will come. Have faith… they will come.

 

[30miller]

Playing with words IMO. The point is the response by reports so far has been minimal. I always felt traditionalists were wrong assuming many would flood back if given the chance. it just does not seem to be happening.

That’s quite an insult to Fr. Zuhlsdorf, who I assume you know nothing about. For all the time and effort he’s put in to mastering the Latin language - I’m quite sure he doesn’t deserve those who know nothing about the language disparaging his (correct) translations. If Fr. Z says 3 or more - I’m sure it is 3 or more. It’s not 50. Fr. Z has no problem exploring ambiguities in translating Latin. 3 vs. 50 is not one of those ambiguities.
These kind of completely uninformed “IMO’s” are exactly what the bishops (in general) like to hear in continuing their disobedience to the popes’ (JPII and Benedict) over 25 year old request to them to “liberally grant permission” for the Latin mass to be held - the same disobedience which is one of the prime causes for the new motu proprio by Pope Benedict in the first place. That’s exactly why Pope Benedict just took it out of their hands and gave all priests the authority themselves. (Though many bishops are even trying to ignore the clear words of the Pope).
In general, I think the majority of our bishops have no intention of embracing the Pope’s motu proprio. To them, it’s business as usual - from fingerprinting church volunteers in Arlington, Va. to giving communion to radically pro-abortion politicians. Business as usual. “He’s not in - he’ll get back to you…”.

 

[maryalene]

I think a lot of it might also be finding priests who are able to say a TLM. After the MP was released, our priest mentioned at Mass that he was approached by a parishioner about it. Our priest is in his mid-50s and said that if the Vatican wanted to send a priest to say the TLM, he would be glad to act as the altar server since that was all he knew for the Latin Mass.

 

[30miller]

I think a lot of it might also be finding priests who are able to say a TLM. After the MP was released, our priest mentioned at Mass that he was approached by a parishioner about it. Our priest is in his mid-50s and said that if the Vatican wanted to send a priest to say the TLM, he would be glad to act as the altar server since that was all he knew for the Latin Mass.

Another idiotic comment for a priest to make! While mid-50 year old Americans lose their good jobs left and right to the so-called “global economy” and must scramble to learn entirely new careers - it’s insulting for a lazy priest to go out of his way to make the point that he refuses to learn anything he hadn’t learned before reaching some magic unspecified age - by proclaiming that he would serve as an altar boy.

 

[maryalene]

Yes, our priest is a smart aleck sometime…