already downhearted

[JKirkLVNV]

And now that I am feeling bad that my priest is being raked over the coals for something I said let me also add that since our priest came to our parish: he moved the altar to the center (it was off to the side) our servers now wear traditional robes, we have incorporated some Latin into the Mass, Gregorian chant is used, the folk group was banished and evening compline is offered several times a week among other things.

Wow, so it turns out the man’s not a flamin’ “Spirit of Vatican II” liberal after all? Good on you, Maryalene, for making the clarification! He sounds like a grand priest and you’re blessed!

 

[Pious_Mat]

Good to know. And here’s a surprise for you (from an ancient 45 year old). If the EF was in the vernacular and had a few other minor reforms/organic developments, that’s the Mass I’d go to, all the time. If we’d simply done that after the council, we would probably have avoided all this mess.

That would also be the mass that I would gladly offer every Sunday for the sins of mankind if I were a priest (after I had said a TLM, of course).

JKirk, I think that the discussion that you and I have had has proven that if we discuss things calmly and analytically go through details, we can all find a happy medium, liturgically speaking. If the NO were revised to look more like the 1965 Mass of Vatican II, we wouldn’t be having this discussion, as the TLM and the NO would thereby complement each other, rather than causing division.

Sometimes I think that if Cardinal Wojtyla (God speed him, JPII, to Sainthood) and Archbishop Sheen had taken the capacities of Cardinal Bugnini and Archbishop Lefebvre during VII, there wouldn’t be any conflict between the two rites.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

That would also be the mass that I would gladly offer every Sunday for the sins of mankind if I were a priest (after I had said a TLM, of course).

JKirk, I think that the discussion that you and I have had has proven that if we discuss things calmly and analytically go through details, we can all find a happy medium, liturgically speaking. If the NO were revised to look more like the 1965 Mass of Vatican II, we wouldn’t be having this discussion, as the TLM and the NO would thereby complement each other, rather than causing division.

Sometimes I think that if Cardinal Wojtyla (God speed him, JPII, to Sainthood) and Archbishop Sheen had taken the capacities of Cardinal Bugnini and Archbishop Lefebvre during VII, there wouldn’t be any conflict between the two rites.

Then I must blushingly apologize for reading your words too “bluntly” and compliment you on a wisdom that belies your years.

Understand this: some of us react badly to the liturgy that brought us into the Church and nurtured our faith (our orthodox faith, for we have no use for lesbian nuns or liberation theologians or priests dancing with the Blessed Sacrament or “Catholic” pro-choice politicians or bishops who cover up for paedophiles) being shown such disdain as is the daily fodder here in these fora and elsewhere. It’s tantamount to calling someone’s mother a whore, in some ways. This, oddly enough, is what made me so supportive of the expansion of the Indult under the Servant of God Pope John Paul II and glad for those who desired the EF given in the MP by HH Pope Benedict XVI: I cannot imagine how it would feel to have the liturgy I loved taken away from me, so I wouldn’t have anyone else undergo the same.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

How will an insurgence of converts from evangelical and other sects of Protestantism influence which Mass is offered the most?

As long as we are making predictions here, I would like to add that I truly believe that in the next twenty years, the Catholic Church will welcome thousands and tens of thousands of evangelicals and other Protestants who have been led home by the Holy Spirit, through the faithfulness of the prayers of many Catholics, and the expertise of Catholic apologists and evangelists. I think that the life issues are going to be a “line in the dirt” for many Protestants who will abandon their “pro-death” anti-Biblical fellowships and become Catholic.

I can only speak for myself and my husband. We will obey the Pope because he is the Vicar of Jesus Christ; if he establishes the TLM as the only valid, licit Mass in the Catholic Church, we will attend and rejoice in the privilege of attending Mass and receiving Holy Eucharist.

But as long as there is a choice, we would prefer a Mass in our own heart language, which happens to be English.

We also prefer contemporary hymns rather than classical music and chant. Again, if the Pope declares that this kind of music is no longer allowed in Masses, we would respect our Pope and bring ourselves into line with his decree.

I think that most Protestants would feel the same we do about Masses in foreign languages, although my only basis for this opinion is the fact that I worked and worshipped and sometimes even played with Protestants for 47 years.

I hope and pray you are right about the converts. I’m just wondering, have you ever assisted at a TLM with Gregorian chant?

Part of the reason I am asking is that I am a revert (who actually feels like a convert since I rarely attended Mass growing up) and was a devout Protestant for 17 years. And I am one who greatly prefers the TLM (even though most of the time I assist at the NO). I also think that one may find that a good percentage of those who assist (or want to assist) at the TLM are reverts or converts.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I hope that this post sounds kind.

I have a wee problem with people who seem to want to go to TLM “for the experience.”

What exactly is the difference between this approach, and the approach of charismatic Protestants who attend a weekly “worship experience” at their church?

And what is the difference between this and going to a rock concert for the “vibes.” (You can tell how old I am.)

I know a lot of Protestants who go to church for the music, the hand-raising, the ecstasy, the manifestations of the charismata–in other words, the “experience.” The feelings.

In fact, the megachurch in our city doesn’t say “worship services” or “church services.” Instead, they call it the “worship experience.”

I don’t agree with this approach. Although I think that humans should “enjoy” church and get something “good” out of church services (especially the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass!), I don’t think we should be going to any church, including the Catholic Mass, for the “experience” or to experience good “feelings.” I think we should go because we are obeying Jesus, our Lord, and because we want to receive Him.

I do believe that the main reason Catholics go to Mass is to receive Jesus, and that the 'experience" is secondary, so please don’t think I’m lumping everyone together. But it does seem like some talk more about the “experience” of TLM rather than the Jesus of TLM.

As I mentioned, I was a Protestant for 17 years before reverting to the Catholic faith. And I primarily went to charismatic churches like Foursquare or Vineyard and definitely know what you are talking about when it comes to searching for a good “worship experience.”

I really don’t think the TLM fits that mold as it is a liturgy which, for the most part, has undergone little change for hundreds of years (though there has been organic development). And thus it is not a liturgy concocted by a committee or a worship leader where you just try to make it so it appeals to people. In fact, with its long periods of silence and non-vernacular language it almost seems the antithesis of what someone might concoct if he is trying to appeal to a large number of people (although I do think its appeal is universal and strong for those who at least take the time to become more familiar with it).

I also wouldn’t use the term “experience” in regards to the TLM, although obviously anyone is going to experience something regardless of the liturgy. I would refer to it more as spiritual nourishment which feeds the soul. It is simply the opposite of the hyped up services I experienced as a charismatic where everyone does seem to be going after an experience. And since we are not angels, but consist of body and soul, God knows that the incarnation of the Faith in prayer, art, architecture, incense, holy water, etc. is quite important and can be quite an aid in growing closer to Christ Himself. And that is one of the aims and results of good liturgy when assisted at with devotion, a greater union with Christ which goes beyond just an experience.

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<It’s only taken 40 years or thereabouts to get back to the Latin>>

Not true.

The Novus Ordo was originally promulgated in Latin, and I attended a celebration of it in m ostly Latin in the 70’s.

And to the original poster, did you have a secret, even unarticulated, expectation that everyone would suddenly start celebrating according to the Missal of Blessed John XXIII? That’s what it sounds to me like.

 

[30miller]

LOL!!! Have you BEEN to Las Vegas?!?!? Of COURSE, we’re one of the lowest, I’m surprised we’re not THE lowest!!! But even in Sin City, we manage to always have a few in seminary.
And you still don’t know ANYTHING about me or my faith in Christ and His Church OR my parish and I’d be careful about assumptions if I were you.

From your own original description in your post one would have thought you lived in Lourdes or Fatima. Now it’s “Sin City”, according to you.
To answer your question - no. Never been there and never intend to. Seems to me akin to visiting Sodom or Gomorrah. Never did understand all the “faithful” who pilgrimage there but not to truly Catholic sites. (I have been to Lourdes and Fatima and Jasna Gora and Patmos and to Mary’s house in Ephesus, among other places). Nor do I understand why one would choose to live in a place that they themselves consider “Sin City”.
And don’t be so surprised - you virtually are THE lowest. Sixth from the bottom of some 250 or so dioceses IS the bottom.
So my assumption about your vocations was right on the mark. Sorry to see that. Sounds like you have enough Fr. Gallups with their polls and no vocations. I hope a Jean Vianney finds his way there to help you folks out by offering you the sacraments all day every day and not polling you to see what you “think” about that.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

From your own original description in your post one would have thought you lived in Lourdes or Fatima. Now it’s “Sin City”, according to you.
To answer your question - no. Never been there and never intend to. Seems to me akin to visiting Sodom or Gomorrah. Never did understand all the “faithful” who pilgrimage there but not to truly Catholic sites. (I have been to Lourdes and Fatima and Jasna Gora and Patmos and to Mary’s house in Ephesus, among other places). Nor do I understand why one would choose to live in a place that they themselves consider “Sin City”.
And don’t be so surprised - you virtually are THE lowest. Sixth from the bottom of some 250 or so dioceses IS the bottom.
So my assumption about your vocations was right on the mark. Sorry to see that. Sounds like you have enough Fr. Gallups with their polls and no vocations. I hope a Jean Vianney finds his way there to help you folks out by offering you the sacraments all day every day and not polling you to see what you “think” about that.

Well, I obviously cannot compete with you in holiness or sanctity. If I’d realized who I was dealing with, I would never have dared to raise even my feeble protest. It was kind of you to deign to even speak to me.

 

[Cat]

I hope and pray you are right about the converts. I’m just wondering, have you ever assisted at a TLM with Gregorian chant?

Part of the reason I am asking is that I am a revert (who actually feels like a convert since I rarely attended Mass growing up) and was a devout Protestant for 17 years. And I am one who greatly prefers the TLM (even though most of the time I assist at the NO). I also think that one may find that a good percentage of those who assist (or want to assist) at the TLM are reverts or converts.

Thanks for asking, Brennan Doherty.

No.

We have had TLM in our city for decades, within two miles of my house.

I have absolutely no interest.

I’m very happy that the MP has happened for those who love the TLM, and hope that there will be more opportunities for them to attend the Mass that they love.

But I’m not interested. I prefer to be able to understand everything that’s going on. I am an ex-evangelical Protestant and have grown up questioning and examining everything, and looking out for errors and cults. (In the Protestant world, you have to be extremely careful, because cults can disguise themselves as churches).

In a TLM, I wouldn’t know it if the priest started speaking blasphemy and teaching heresy. I’m not willing to take that chance. If I can’t understand it, I won’t listen. I just don’t trust it.

Also, I’m not into “warm fuzzies.” I don’t have any appreciation of the things that the “real” Catholics seem to enjoy so much–altar rails, etc. I wasn’t raised with it, and it means nothing to me other than “ritual.” I can appreciate that others enjoy it. I don’t. I feel like I’ve intruded into another family’s holiday traditional celebration–THEY love it, while I sit on the side and feel totally left out.

And to be honest, it doesn’t help when certain Catholics, especially some on this Board, hold such uncharitable viewpoints towards modern Catholicism. I feel a great distrust for these people who are so willing to criticize their Church and to claim that what the Church has declared holy is in fact heretical or “Protestant.” I really don’t want to be around a crowd of these types. Everyone tells me that most TLMers are not like that. Well, the ones I know personally are.

Sorry to those who are truly good Catholics. Just being honest about my feelings.

 

[30miller]

Well, I obviously cannot compete with you in holiness or sanctity. If I’d realized who I was dealing with, I would never have dared to raise even my feeble protest. It was kind of you to deign to even speak to me.

You have snatched the pebble, grasshopper. You are ready to go forth.
Actually, it’s all about choices grasshopper. You choose to be a wiseguy and live in what you call “Sin City”. You choose to be a victim. Others don’t. That’s not a commentary on my holiness or sanctity relative to you or anyone else. That’s just a fact. You know nothing about my holiness or sanctity, in fact - so why don’t you just keep those kind of “insights” to yourself.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

You have snatched the pebble, grasshopper. You are ready to go forth.
Actually, it’s all about choices grasshopper. You choose to be a wiseguy and live in what you call “Sin City”. You choose to be a victim. Others don’t. That’s not a commentary on my holiness or sanctity relative to you or anyone else. That’s just a fact. You know nothing about my holiness or sanctity, in fact - so why don’t you just keep those kind of “insights” to yourself.

I’m neither a victim or a wise guy. I live where I could get a job, like most people. You’re the one who brought this stuff up, not me. All I was doing was defending the fact that the priest in question might not have been as bad as you made him out…and you know what? Maryalene came back and clarified that he wasn’t. If it was me, I’d head for confession in my non-vocations producing, non-sacrament-emphasizing diocese to confess the sin of calumny.

 

[30miller]

I’m neither a victim or a wise guy. I live where I could get a job, like most people. You’re the one who brought this stuff up, not me. All I was doing was defending the fact that the priest in question might not have been as bad as you made him out…and you know what? Maryalene came back and clarified that he wasn’t. If it was me, I’d head for confession in my non-vocations producing, non-sacrament-emphasizing diocese to confess the sin of calumny.

What little Faith you appear to have. Let me see if I understand you correctly - the ONLY place you could “get a job” is the speck of dust on this planet that you call “Sin City”. Look at yourself in the mirror and say that to yourself 10 times. See if you can sell yourself on such a ridiculous position. Unless you are a dancer on “The Strip”, I think you are not only wrong - but are claiming the ultimate “victimhood” by such a statement. So wear the cloak of a victim. Truth hurts, eh?

 

[maryalene]

We’re going OT but does where someone live really have any bearing on the state of one’s soul? Can’t we all be holy regardless of our surroundings? I realize it is easier to be holy when you are surrounded by others who are also striving to be holy. However, I can’t imagine that living in Las Vegas necessarily means that someone isn’t serious about their faith.

Maybe I am misunterstanding your posts 30miller, but it sounds like you are questioning JKirk’s piety because of where he lives. Maybe JKirk is called to be a light to those living in darkness in “Sin City.” It’s my understanding that we are to go forth and evangelize others.

JKirk: You’re right - our priest is anything but a “Spirit of VII” type. In fact, we’ve lost a lot of parishioners because people were upset with the music changes and whatnot (and it was probably partly his personality too - but that’s a whole nother thread. Or maybe not - apparently, he can cause controversy anywhere. )

 

[Sailor_Kenshin]

The only Latin I understand comes from being really into dinosaurs as a kid. I’m okay with the Mass we have now, but for whatever reason I find myself powerfully drawn to the Latin Mass. I was happy to be able to experience one via EWTN.

Did they ever fix that link? I would like someone I know to be able to view it.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Thanks for asking, Brennan Doherty.

No.

We have had TLM in our city for decades, within two miles of my house.

I have absolutely no interest.

I’m very happy that the MP has happened for those who love the TLM, and hope that there will be more opportunities for them to attend the Mass that they love.

But I’m not interested. I prefer to be able to understand everything that’s going on. I am an ex-evangelical Protestant and have grown up questioning and examining everything, and looking out for errors and cults. (In the Protestant world, you have to be extremely careful, because cults can disguise themselves as churches).

In a TLM, I wouldn’t know it if the priest started speaking blasphemy and teaching heresy. I’m not willing to take that chance. If I can’t understand it, I won’t listen. I just don’t trust it.

Also, I’m not into “warm fuzzies.” I don’t have any appreciation of the things that the “real” Catholics seem to enjoy so much–altar rails, etc. I wasn’t raised with it, and it means nothing to me other than “ritual.” I can appreciate that others enjoy it. I don’t. I feel like I’ve intruded into another family’s holiday traditional celebration–THEY love it, while I sit on the side and feel totally left out.

And to be honest, it doesn’t help when certain Catholics, especially some on this Board, hold such uncharitable viewpoints towards modern Catholicism. I feel a great distrust for these people who are so willing to criticize their Church and to claim that what the Church has declared holy is in fact heretical or “Protestant.” I really don’t want to be around a crowd of these types. Everyone tells me that most TLMers are not like that. Well, the ones I know personally are.

Sorry to those who are truly good Catholics. Just being honest about my feelings.

Cat,

Thanks for writing. I would not characterize at all the TLM as giving off “warm fuzzies” as if those who attend do so because they want a warm cuddly feeling. I do consider this liturgy, particularly when done with Gregorian chant and in a beautiful church, to be ennobling and elevating. Hence I would probably characterize it more as what one may experience in the presence of great art, a sense of transcendence and awe.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

What little Faith you appear to have. Let me see if I understand you correctly - the ONLY place you could “get a job” is the speck of dust on this planet that you call “Sin City”. Look at yourself in the mirror and say that to yourself 10 times. See if you can sell yourself on such a ridiculous position. Unless you are a dancer on “The Strip”, I think you are not only wrong - but are claiming the ultimate “victimhood” by such a statement. So wear the cloak of a victim. Truth hurts, eh?

No, because again, you haven’t told it (the truth, that is) about that priest (see Maryalene’s clarification) or about me. I have not endeavored to insult you personally, yet YOU have consistently done so to me. Go back and read the posts (with comprehension, as you put it). Given your postings, I’d look to the beam in my own eye.

And to the thread at large: these postings are a perfect example of why “traditionalists” are the EF’s worst enemy. Why would anyone want to be like this? If it is true that “by your fruits you shall know them,” why would anyone look to these personal attacks that are made here and elsewhere (not only about individuals here, but the Church at large) and want to adopt that sort of “churchmanship?” It’s obvious that the EF isn’t at fault, logically, historically, etc. Anyone with any intelligence and sense of history would understand that the Tridentine has nothing to do with such attitudes, such a lack of charity, etc. But even for people who are well-educated and experienced, these types of postings, these attacks, are going to leave a bad taste in their mouth and have the cummulative effect of making them wonder why they would want to attend that kind of Mass if that’s what it produces.

Of course I realize that the NO has been abused and slaughtered by people who don’t exhibit the fruit that they should, either, and that the “fruit” of the last forty years has been poor, so the argument runs both ways, naturally.

 

[otjm]

It’s pretty clear from your post who thinks they are “holier than thou”.

Well, you are certainly giving a good impression of it.

Oh, by the way, did you in your wildest imagination think you could be mistaken for belonging to an indult Latin Mass parish?

As a matter of fact, I have been.

Of course your parish has the OF…the language you speak is that of an OFer - never to be mistaken for an EFer.

you have no idea where I come down on the issue because I have never said. As a matter of fact, I attended the EF when it was the OF for about 1/3 of my life. The language I speak is called English. If you mean that I don’t use code words, well, excuse me. I try to speak to everyone, and I don’t need to use code words to make my identity.

The MP just came out in July. It’s first date of implementation was 12 days ago. How exactly is it that you claim to know that the “great majority” of your parish prefers the OF?

Because the issue has been discussed for a longer period of time than that. Because we have intelligent people in our parish who do not limit themselves to the last 38 years when speaking of liturgy - oh, and we include information about the local Maronite and Byzantine liturgies.

And even in the strongest 24 hour perpetual adoration parishes I’ve seen - none comes close to having a “great majority” participate in adoration. 25 to 40 % tops. Do you count walking past the adoration chapel on the way out of Mass or something as “going” to perpetual adoration?

And what was that little bon mot supposed to mean? Or are you just jealous?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

The only Latin I understand comes from being really into dinosaurs as a kid. I’m okay with the Mass we have now, but for whatever reason I find myself powerfully drawn to the Latin Mass. I was happy to be able to experience one via EWTN.

Did they ever fix that link? I would like someone I know to be able to view it.

You are probably, like most others (except liturgists, apparently) hungry for reverence and transcendence. These have been markedly lacking in the celebration of NO for a long time, worse in some places than others (I’m lucky, I normally only see reverent Masses ruined by music that is, at least, banal). Make no mistake, the EF has reverence and transcendence in SPADES. That does not mean, however, that the OF cannot have the same (the EF can be offered haphazardly and casually, as well). That’s what we should be working and praying toward, that the OF will be allowed to show forth it’s own dignity and transcendence.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

We’re going OT but does where someone live really have any bearing on the state of one’s soul? Can’t we all be holy regardless of our surroundings? I realize it is easier to be holy when you are surrounded by others who are also striving to be holy. However, I can’t imagine that living in Las Vegas necessarily means that someone isn’t serious about their faith.

Maybe I am misunterstanding your posts 30miller, but it sounds like you are questioning JKirk’s piety because of where he lives. Maybe JKirk is called to be a light to those living in darkness in “Sin City.” It’s my understanding that we are to go forth and evangelize others.

JKirk: You’re right - our priest is anything but a “Spirit of VII” type. In fact, we’ve lost a lot of parishioners because people were upset with the music changes and whatnot (and it was probably partly his personality too - but that’s a whole nother thread. Or maybe not - apparently, he can cause controversy anywhere. )

Thank you for your kindness. I’m hardly a light, but I do take my faith seriously. And here in Las Vegas, there is much need of the Divine Mercy. There’s the prayer from Fatima: “O, my Jesus, forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy.” Well, that’s Vegas, so remember it in your prayers.

And I’m glad you’ve such a good priest, you’re blessed. We should pray for our priests daily. They bear a heavy burden.

 

[otjm]

I just brought up his comment to illustrate that there probably aren’t many priests who know the Latin Mass which is why we haven’t see a significant influx of Latin Masses since the MP. I probably should have just left our priest’s comment out, but live and learn I guess, lol.

Actually, I think you did a service, because it brings out the knee-jerk judgementalism of some in these threads. They read with their own set of colored glasses; all they see is what either reinforces their own prejudices, or what they perceive to reinforce it. They have everyone divided into neat little camps, and unless one speaks their “language”, one is most definitely not in their camp.

Over what was not ony an innocent remark, but a rather humbling one, some have decided, without further ado, that the priest is intransigent, totally unconcerned with their desires, out to thwart the wishes of the Pope; the only thing we haven’t really thrown in is heretic.

Over one comment.

What a hoot.