Altar Girls in Cassock/Surplice

[vz71]

Well, she may have been. We don’t know.

Exactly. It is not recorded.
So how can we possibly claim her example as a reason to have Altar girls?

 

[Baelor]

It has been positted that the example of Mary is why girls should serve.

Really? It seems that the claim to which you originally responded was a statement that female altar servers are not in violation of Mary’s example. That is different from what you just said.

You are quite correct. No one has claimed Mary served at the Altar.
So why should her example (one of NOT serving in that capacity) be considered a reason to let girls serve?

Did anyone actually make that claim?

 

[severus68]

Kathryn_Ann:
Well said.

This is in respect of seyour responses to vz71.

 

[vz71]

You yourself, VZ…you really don’t think there have been enough strong examples of females at the helm in Jesus’ life to warrant, at the very least, their being altar servers?

History is full of examples provided us from one person or another.

St Francis is a Patron Saint of animals…and he worked with animals.
St Joseph is a Patron of Carpentry, Families, and Fathers…and he was a carpenter, Foster Father of our Lord, and the head of his family.
St Jude, Patron of Lost Causes…due to confusion between him and Judas, so no one prayed for his intercession.

So, when someone says that the example provided by Mary should be sufficient to allow for girl Altar servers, I am expecting something to match up with actually serving the Altar.
I am not seeing it. I see plenty of examples followed by women religious of servitude provided by Mary, but I do not see examples of serving Altar.

Apologies if some find this obtuse, offensive, or otherwise abrasive to their sensibilities, but I do not believe that the ‘Example of Mary’ is properly applied towards female Altar servers.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

If the Blessed Virgin Mary was an “altar server” and the model for girl altar servers, then I’m sure we would have heard about it long before the 1970s. Apostolic Tradition and all. Let’s not sound like Protestants by putting an interpretation on vague scriptural events that is not found in our Tradition (yes, with a capital T).

• PAX

 

[vz71]

Interesting. In the last passover meal described in the gospels, I don’t see examples provided by the male apostles towards them offering the Eucharist in the future time to come.

That is because it is a single sacrifice, at each Mass we participate in that same sacrifice.
There are no re-sacrifices. Christ is sacrificed just the once.

There is no future or past to it. It is present.

 

[vz71]

I trust, using your mode of reasoning re specific examples for the task at hand, there are other examples somewhere in the scripture, where men other than Jesus are offering the Eucharist for the specific purpose we use today? Or where Jesus tells them to do it in the future?
I’m not sure where these examples are in the Christian canon…do you know?

There are scriptural examples as well as Tradition.
And the Mass is spoken of in the Didache as well.

 

[Baelor]

There are scriptural examples as well as Tradition.
And the Mass is spoken of in the Didache as well.

Who were the male altar servers at the Last Supper?

 

[Brendan]

Interesting. In the last passover meal described in the gospels, I don’t see examples provided by the male apostles towards them offering the Eucharist in the future time to come.
Jesus offers them the bread and wine and they receive them and eat and drink it, just like every Catholic does today–male and female–during communion, but none of them do the “offering” during that last passover meal, as a priest does today.

Christ specifically commanded them to do so “Do this in memory of me”

That is a command to the Apostles, and their sucessors, to offer the Sacrifice of the Mass as Christ did.

 

[Brendan]

Who were the male altar servers at the Last Supper?

The Apostles themselves. In fact, that is another justification for altar service at least emulating the clerical role.

 

[Armyvet007]

The Apostles themselves. In fact, that is another justification for altar service at least emulating the clerical role.

The Apostles weren’t emulating clerics. The fatal flaw of the “Mass has to look like the last supper” argument is that Mass doesn’t [even with the use of male altar servers]. Either the argument is faulty or the Church is wrong. I’ll go with the argument is faulty.

vz- If you wish to focus on the sacrifice issue, that would be the Cross, not the last supper.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

The Apostles were bishops, with Christ as the first Catholic priest. Then the early Bishops ordained priests to help them. Our forefathers took Mass very seriously. It certainly wasn’t a case of ‘everybody into the sanctuary’.

Fast forward to 21st century USA. Now we have people complaining that people are too casual at Mass. They complain about abuses. They have bands and the dickens knows what in the sanctuary.

These abuses and distractions stem from thinking a) Mass is just a celebration and a b) communal meal where c) everyone is equal and d) Jesus is my pal and I’m as good as saved. Such thinking is fatal to instilling a sense of religious awe. Altar girls are one manifestation of this thinking.

'Round and 'round it goes. You make it more democractic and ‘friendly’, year on year and then wonder why people don’t take it seriously any more. The Church is not a democracy and neither is heaven. God needs to be propitiated. You can go to Hell. Quite easily.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

These abuses and distractions stem from thinking a) Mass is just a celebration and a b) communal meal where c) everyone is equal and d) Jesus is my pal and I’m as good as saved. Such thinking is fatal to instilling a sense of religious awe.

Well said. Religious awe is sorely lacking from many Masses.

'Round and 'round it goes. You make it more democractic and ‘friendly’, year on year and then wonder why people don’t take it seriously any more. The Church is not a democracy and neither is heaven. Good needs to be propitiated. You can go to Hell. Quite easily.

And quite probably. Yikes!

• PAX

 

[vz71]

vz- If you wish to focus on the sacrifice issue, that would be the Cross, not the last supper.

Are you suggesting the Mass is not a sacrifice?

 

[Cathryn]

Here is a great explanation from the previous Holy Father of what the role of altar servers is, their dress, and even their true vocations.

Dear altar servers! Yesterday you crossed St Peter’s Square in a long procession to approach the altar of the Confessio in the basilica. …

With special joy I address the altar servers of the German-speaking countries, who make up the largest group. It is wonderful that so many young Christians have come from Germany! Your commitment to the altar is not only a duty but a great honour, a true holy service. Regarding this service, I would like to suggest some points for your reflection:

The vestments worn by altar servers are very special. They recall a garment that everyone puts on when he is welcomed, in Jesus Christ, into the community. I am referring to the baptismal garment whose deep meaning is explained by St Paul: “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ” (Gal 3,27)

Even if you no longer fit into your baptismal garment, dear altar servers, you have put on that of an altar server. Yes, Baptism is the starting point of your “authentic liturgical service”, which puts you beside your Bishops, priests and deacons (cf. Sacrosanctum Concilium, n. 29).

1. **The altar server has a privileged place in liturgical celebrations. Those who serve at Mass present themselves to a community. **They experience from close at hand that Jesus Christ is present and active in every liturgy. Jesus is present whenever the community gathers to pray and give praise to God. Jesus is present in the words of Sacred Scripture. Jesus is present above all in the Eucharist, under the appearances of bread and wine. He acts through the priest who celebrates Holy Mass and administers the sacraments in persona Christi [in the person of Christ]

**Therefore in the liturgy you are far more than mere “helpers of the parish priest”. **Above all, you are servants of Jesus Christ, the eternal High Priest. Thus you altar servers especially are called to be young friends of Jesus. Strive to deepen and foster this friendship with him. You will discover that in Jesus you have found a true friend for life.

1. The altar server often holds a candle in his hand. How can we not think of what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount: “You are the light of the world” (Mt 5,14). Your service cannot be restricted to the inside of a church. It must shine out in your every day life: at school, in the family and in the different social contexts, for those who want to serve Jesus Christ in a church must be his witnesses everywhere

Dear young people, your contemporaries are awaiting the true “light of the world” (cf. Jn 1,9). Do not hold your candlestick only inside the church but take the light of the Gospel to all who live in darkness and are going through a difficult time in their lives.

1. I have spoken of friendship with Jesus. How happy I would be if something more sprang from this friendship! **How beautiful it would be if some of you could discover a vocation to the priesthood! Jesus Christ urgently needs young people who generously make themselves available to him without reserve. Furthermore, might not the Lord also be calling some of you girls to embrace the consecrated life in order to serve the Church and the brethren? Also for those who would like to be united in marriage, an altar server’s service teaches that an authentic union must always include readiness for reciprocal and gratuitous service. ** General Audience (August 1, 2001

 

[Kathryn_Ann]

By the same token, it is recorded that:

Mary Magdalene was the first person to see Jeshua resurrected and then she “shared” the news of his body and blood being intact and real and *alive *with the other apostles. She might have been the first person to “touch” his resurrected flesh (was she?)
This might be interpreted as an example of someone–the very first human person, mind you-- and the first of his disciples, who is “sharing” his resurrected and renewed body with others.

Mother Mary was the first one to share her blood with him as he grew inside her and gave birth to him and then she was the first person to “offer” his body to the world via her own body. That could be seen as an example–the very* first,* mind you-- of a human person to “share” Jesus’ physical body with the world.

Women were with him firsthand as he was born, as he died, and after he was* resurrected*. They were the ones in contact with his flesh and blood as he transformed, over and over.

All examples could have been used as strong arguments for the very obvious ordination of female priests and the giving of the Eucharist.

And yet. The only position these young, wonderful, spiritual girls of this world are seeking is to humbly serve at the altar if the local priest says it’s okay.

You yourself, VZ…you really don’t think there have been enough strong examples of females at the helm in Jesus’ life to warrant, at the very least, their being altar servers?

*Amen and Amen. My posts agree with yours DaddyGirl. The very fact that these young ladies already know that they cannot be priests proves that their pure intent in serving at the altar is to humbly serve Christ and Holy Church.

Our Lady and Her Son have inspired them and their brothers in Christ as well. We should rejoice that they are learning to work together. The girls know that the very same Magisterium which allows them to be altar servers also states that females are not to be priests. Thus, they simply want to serve, inspired by the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Hand Maiden whose example they follow.

She too said
“Yes,”

and all the world is inspired by Her and Her Holy Son.

She was the Ark Bearer, whose womb first carried Christ.

Holy Church has spoken, and allowed these daughters to serve in grace and purity.
Kathryn Ann*:heaven:

 

[jmj33777]

It is a step towards absurdity. I have been serving on the altar for years in New York City. We always wear cassocks and surpluses and we are always either men or boys.

Now, We love to see the women and girls come out to serve. However, there is a certain order and structure to the Church and dressing the girls up in the same way that you dress the boys is the road to confusion.

One of the main purposes of the altar boy was for them to see the priest and if called aspire to be one. Girls cannot be priests. A woman cannot stand in persona Christi and recite the words of consecration.

It may seem harmless or even correct in this age of ambiguity but “IT IS NOT”

Woman are equally essential to the Church as men. However, we each need to participate in the way which God intended…

 

[vz71]

*The very fact that these young ladies already know that they cannot be priests proves that their pure intent in serving at the altar is to humbly serve Christ and Holy Church. *

I do not believe you intended the insult that is implied towards Altar boys.
But you should consider carefully what is said to make sure there isn’t insult to one or the other when discussing the differences between the servers of Mass.

 

[vz71]

*Thus, they simply want to serve, inspired by the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Hand Maiden whose example they follow. *

*She too said *
*“Yes,” *

*and all the world is inspired by Her and Her Holy Son. *

*She was the Ark Bearer, whose womb first carried Christ. *

Holy Church has spoken, and allowed these daughters to serve in grace and purity.
Kathryn Ann:heaven:

What exact example is this?
No one seems willing or able to answer this.

Mary gave plenty of example of serving God’s people.
But what example is there towards being an altar server?

 

[Armyvet007]

The Apostles were bishops, with Christ as the first Catholic priest. Then the early Bishops ordained priests to help them. Our forefathers took Mass very seriously. It certainly wasn’t a case of ‘everybody into the sanctuary’.

Fast forward to 21st century USA. Now we have people complaining that people are too casual at Mass. They complain about abuses. They have bands and the dickens knows what in the sanctuary.

These abuses and distractions stem from thinking a) Mass is just a celebration and a b) communal meal where c) everyone is equal and d) Jesus is my pal and I’m as good as saved. Such thinking is fatal to instilling a sense of religious awe. Altar girls are one manifestation of this thinking.

'Round and 'round it goes. You make it more democractic and ‘friendly’, year on year and then wonder why people don’t take it seriously any more. The Church is not a democracy and neither is heaven. God needs to be propitiated. You can go to Hell. Quite easily.

Apparently you do not see the irony of you proclaiming the Church not to be a democracy while at the same time acting like it is. The Church has spoken on the matter of girl altar servers.