Altar Girls

[PA650]

Before changes emerged in 1994, it seems the Church still held the traditional view regarding only males could serve during Mass:

1. In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar.
   adoremus.org/LiturgicaeInstaurationes.html

1. There are, of course, various roles that women can perform in the liturgical assembly: these include reading the Word of God and proclaiming the intentions of the Prayer of the Faithful. Women are not, however, permitted to act as altar servers.(27)
   adoremus.org
   /InaestimabileDonum.html

Additional worthwhile information regarding altar serving:
catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,1919378.0.html

 

[PodunkMommy]

Hi There:

If you would have asked me this question 1 month ago I would have told you that there should only be altar boys. In fact, we specifically use the term altar boy in our family. One of my sons is an altar boy.

My daughter will be making her First Communion this May. I have been doing some reading on the Eastern side of our Church how there were “Deaconesses” and I actually got to thinking how maybe if my daughter was an “altar girl” it may help her decide if she wants to become a nun or not.

I always thought of the altar boy as preparing the boys for the priesthood (if they were to become priests) so I have to admit that I would prefer that the girls have a different vocation in the server part than the boys.

This discovery for me is huge since I am a very traditional person who only saw the function of altar boys/servers as the ultimate goal of discerning to become priests.

Blessings,
Bethany

 

[Brendan]

I wonder if parishes would have the same result…whether or not they used altar girls if they used the same program with their altar boys that you do…hosting at the seminary and showing them what it is like…

The other part is having all boys, aged 5-18, as altar boys ( go look at the video I linked to above)

We regularly have 70+ altar boys serve at our Sunday 9:30am Mass ( the largest), it will go down to 10-12 altar boys for the other Masses. Remember that if an altar boy is present at Mass, he serves. So just about every parish boy who is attending a given Mass is serving that Mass.

It does mean it is quite large, and adding girls to that mix would really make it unmanagable.

Also, as I noted above, our pastor does this to teach the boys what it is like to be a priest at Mass (they do not sit in the pews), so why would a parish want to have girls model what it is like to be a priest?

 

[Brendan]

Hi Brendan

Does your parish draw members strictly by territorial lines, or do you have a unique type of parish which draws people to it for other reasons?

It’s a regualar diocesan parish. We do have several parishes very close by ( 3 within a 4 mile radius), so I imagine that some of the attendees are geographically within other boundries, but with so many parishes so close together, I don’t think anyone really knows exactly what the boundries are

I feel like the family environment is so crucial to the willingness to hear the call…so it would make sense that families who share certain philosophies/attitudes might be drawn to a parish that shares their philosophy/attitude.

But if there is a certain philosophy\attitude that drives vocations, would it not be incumbant on EVERY parish to foster that same attidute\philosophy? And if a pastor is not doing so, then should he not start?

My son is making his First Communion this May and he is also anxious to serve. I think it’s natural - he sees his mom and his sister involved in the Liturgy, so he wants to be involved too. Now if I can just convince my husband to become a Eucharistic Minister, we could be 4 for 4!

In our parish, your son would already have been an altar boy for for past 2 years now

And as a minor point, a ‘Eucharistic Minister’ is one who can confect the Sacrament of the Eucharist, namely a priest or a bishop. There is a seperate ministry, that of bringing the Eucharist to the community. That is a Minister of Holy Communion. Priests, Bishops and Deacons are Ordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. The laity may be Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion. But a lay person can nevery, by defintion, be a Eucharistic Minister.

Pope John Paul II instructed us not to use the term “Eucharistic Minister” in reference to lay people. ( Redemptionis Sacramenum, #156 - vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20040423_redemptionis-sacramentum_en.html)

 

[PaulinVA]

The other part is having all boys, aged 5-18, as altar boys ( go look at the video I linked to above)

We regularly have 70+ altar boys serve at our Sunday 9:30am Mass ( the largest), .

This is very interesting. So, in your parish, males aged 5-18 never sit with their families, never just go to Sunday Mass and reflect on the readings and the homily, they are always “on the job”?

Well, not surprising so many think they have a calling.

 

[Brendan]

This is very interesting. So, in your parish, males aged 5-18 never sit with their families, never just go to Sunday Mass and reflect on the readings and the homily, they are always “on the job”?

Well, not surprising so many think they have a calling.

Of course they sit and reflect on the readings, like all of us do (even the priests) . They just do it in the Sanctuary (like the priests)

But yes, they serve at every Mass, just like the priests do.

 

[PaulinVA]

Of course they sit and reflect on the readings, like all of us do (even the priests) . They just do it in the Sanctuary (like the priests)

But yes, they serve at every Mass, just like the priests do.

Very interesting indeed. I am trying not to be snarky, I really am. Your replies are very gracious.

My issues are that this sounds like an atmosphere that fosters false vocations, due to peer pressure and the “grooming” of the Catholic boys for one thing. Also, I have daughters, and I would not want to go to your parish, frankly. I understand and agree with the tradition and the theology, but would not subject my daughters to having their noses rubbed in it every Sunday.

 

[TheMc]

My issues are that this sounds like an atmosphere that fosters false vocations, due to peer pressure and the “grooming” of the Catholic boys for one thing. Also, I have daughters, and I would not want to go to your parish, frankly. I understand and agree with the tradition and the theology, but would not subject my daughters to having their noses rubbed in it every Sunday.

My parish also is a similar situation. I can attest that there are several girls that I know who love this atmosphere.

" but would not subject my daughters to having their noses rubbed in it every Sunday."
I don’t understand what you are saying. Having their noses rubbed?

 

[TheMc]

Of course they sit and reflect on the readings, like all of us do (even the priests) . They just do it in the Sanctuary (like the priests)

But yes, they serve at every Mass, just like the priests do.

This is a wonderful arrangement. At my parish, it is also a “come anytime and serve” arrangement for Sundays, and we usually have about 13-14 if the rector is celebrating, and 15-18 (or even 20) if the bishop celebrates (it is made known the week before, so people can plan ahead). We’ve had several seminarians from our parish, including one who will soon be ordained a deacon.

There is nothing girly about serving here! I can attest to the fact that when the boys get in trouble at home, their punishment is X weeks of missing serving! (That is first hand knowledge )

 

[curlycool89]

I would say that altar girls prohibit men from accepting. Firstly, in that no mortal can prohibit God from acting as God desires, namly in the offering of a vocation. Secondly, The addition of girls creates a culture where altar service is looked upon by boys as not being manly. From personal experience, the altar servers quickly become majority female.

Well, the solution is pretty obvious then: the boys need to step up and get over it. To be perfectly frank, you’re enabling the “girls have cooties” argument in all but name.

If our parish has seen more men ordained from it than other similarly sized parishes, there can only be two possibilites as to why.

1. That God calls men from parishes like ours more

or

1. That the men in parishes like ours are more likely to answer the call.

The answer is number 2, but you’re missing half the equation. The boys most likely to answer come from a full culture of encouraging vocations that is not just as the parish, but also at home and with their friends.

 

[Brendan]

Very interesting indeed. I am trying not to be snarky, I really am. Your replies are very gracious.

My issues are that this sounds like an atmosphere that fosters false vocations, due to peer pressure and the “grooming” of the Catholic boys for one thing.

The men have all their time in the seminary, with well trained spiritual advisors, to discern before they are ordained. So I fail to see how it would be a false vocation.

Also, I have daughters, and I would not want to go to your parish, frankly. I understand and agree with the tradition and the theology, but would not subject my daughters to having their noses rubbed in it every Sunday.

Noses rubbed in what? In post #20 of this thread, I provided a link to the instructions provided by the Vatican in this matter

Please read the following from that link.

In accord with the above cited instructions of the Holy See such an authorization may not, in any way, exclude men or, in particular, boys from service at the altar, nor require that priests of the diocese would make use of female altar servers, since “it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar” (Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conference, March 15, 1994, no. 2). Indeed, the obligation to support groups of altar boys will always remain, not least of all due to the well known assistance that such programs have provided since time immemorial in encouraging future priestly vocations (cf. ibid.)

With respect to whether the practice of women serving at the altar would truly be of pastoral advantage in the local pastoral situation, it is perhaps helpful to recall that the non-ordained faithful do not have a right to service at the altar, rather they are capable of being admitted to such service by the Sacred Pastors (cf. Circular Letter to the Presidents of Episcopal Conferences, March 15, 1994, no. 4, cf. also can 228, §1, Interdicasterial Instruction Esslesiae de mysterio, August 15, 1997, no. 4, see Notitiae 34 [1998] 9-42). Therefore, in the event that Your Excellency found it opportune to authorize service of women at the altar, it would remain important to explain clearly to the faithful the nature of this innovation, lest confusion might be introduced, thereby hampering the development of priestly vocations.

There is nothing to rub into anyone’s nose, no one has a right to serve at the altar, so the girls are being denied nothing they can claim.

Paul, I have daughters too ( 4 of them in fact), I would be the first to object if anyone was rubbing anything into their noses. No one is, least of all my pastor. By spending their time in the youth choir, or even just sitting back in the pews, they are doing their part to promote vocations to the priesthood, which is something the whole Church should rejoice in.

 

[Prayerfully]

Do a forum search - there is no need to rehash this over and over and over again if that’s all you are looking for.

~Liza

Just like the threads on modesty and submission…and they ALWAYS get closed down by the moderators since there are a few trolls who must post their opinions that women should wear burkas and be a doormat

 

[Brendan]

Well, the solution is pretty obvious then: the boys need to step up and get over it. To be perfectly frank, you’re enabling the “girls have cooties” argument in all but name.

Curly, we’re talking about 5 year old boys here. How do you expect a 5 year old to 'get over it".

Rather, our pastor is using the 5 year old mentality to great effect. These boys are assigned small tasks at Mass (to make them feel a part of things), but mostly they are learning how to behave at Mass. Boys that age want to be like the older boys and do older boy things. The older boys ( 10 ish) sit with them and show them how to keep still, keep their hands on their laps, to do all the actions the rubrics of the Mass require etc…

It is the very nature of 5 year old boys to want to be like 10 year old boys. I know very few who want to be like (or act like) 10 year old girls. So if you know of a way to make them do that, of for them to ‘suck it up’

And, on the plus for all of this, we have whole flocks of 9,10,11 year old boys who take great pride in how still they can sit at Mass, because they know the boys even older than they are counting on them to be good models for the little boys.

So what exactly do you want these boys to ‘get over’ anyway?

The answer is number 2, but you’re missing half the equation. The boys most likely to answer come from a full culture of encouraging vocations that is not just as the parish, but also at home and with their friends.

Well the priest can control the parish, so he should do all he can to foster vocations. And he can do all he can to make sure all of a boy’s friends in the parish are also serving at the altar, so the boy will get postive (name removed by moderator)ut from his friends. And he can give good homilies that promote good family life and a full sense of obedience to the bishop and the Magisterium, which are also necessary for a sucessful vocation.

 

[RedSoxWife]

That sort of strikes me-the whole “Mary” argument as a “whatever you have to tell yoursekf” . Please don’t take it personal.

Please read Alice Von Hildebrand’s “The Privilege of Being a Woman.” She explains, in a very understandable way, the myths that have been perpetuated against the Church’s teachings and treatment of women.

My issues are that this sounds like an atmosphere that fosters false vocations, due to peer pressure and the “grooming” of the Catholic boys for one thing. Also, I have daughters, and I would not want to go to your parish, frankly. I understand and agree with the tradition and the theology, but would not subject my daughters to having their noses rubbed in it every Sunday.

Our kids grow up in an everything goes world and no matter how well sheltered they are, they’re going to know that they have other options than the priesthood. And I wouldn’t say that less than one priest a year really sounds like there’s a ton of “peer pressure” going on since the vast majority of boys still do not become priests.

I have daughters and I don’t see them not being able to serve (although they would be allowed at our current parish… we aren’t going to allow it as parents.) as “rubbing their noses” in it. They’ll be raised to know that there’s a difference between boys and girls and that because of that difference they’ll be called to serve God in different ways.

Girls and boys can do lots of the same things (I’m a black belt and plan on teaching all my children how to defend themselves). Some things are set apart. Serving is allowed, when all the requirements already named in this thread have been met, but I don’t intend on encouraging it with the girls in our family.

On the other hand, my oldest daughter currently carries a nun doll with her everywhere and talks about her 24/7… if she ends up having a vocation as a nun we’d be thrilled. If not, we’d be thrilled too. I think most parent’s would be more excited that their children are listening to God’s voice in their lives when discerning, then pressuring them to do something they don’t want to do.

 

[Brendan]

Oh yea, one other thing my pastor does.

He arranges a regular 'Breakfast with the Bishop" for the older altarboys (16-18) The boys and their fathers are invited to the rectory to have breakfast with a bishop. It might be our bishop or one of the auxilliaries. He has arranged for visiting bishops to come when they are in town.

The last one was with Bishop Sample from the Diocese of Marquette, MI.

He even had Cardinal Arizne over for breakfast with the boys. (the Cardinal was the keynote speaker at our parish’s Lenten Symposium two years ago, so he was there already) I can’t wait until my son is old enough for these

 

[curlycool89]

Curly, we’re talking about 5 year old boys here. How do you expect a 5 year old to 'get over it".

Then maybe since 5 year olds are not mature enough, we shouldn’t be having them as alter servers.

 

[Brendan]

Then maybe since 5 year olds are not mature enough, we shouldn’t be having them as alter servers.

They are mature enough, they do a great job

If you define ‘maturity’ as being required to accept altar servers, the Vatican itself would not meet your criteria.

 

[callmeChris]

This looks like a job for Cardinal Arinze:nunchuk:

youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY

 

[Phemie]

This looks like a job for Cardinal Arinze:nunchuk:

youtube.com/watch?v=KWByiwHE4MY

You do realize that the good Cardinal was entitled to his own opinion, just like we are to ours. I wouldn’t care if the Church decided to no longer allow female altar servers. But as long as she does and as long as the bishop and the priest do then I have no objection to them - in fact my DD was one, at the Pastor’s request. DS 1 & DS 2 had absolutely no interest in being altar servers, to them that was a chore just like cleaning their rooms and they wanted no chores in church.

OTOH, I will go to the wall to ensure that a priest’s right not to use them is upheld. I made very sure that, when the liturgy committee chair in my parish said that visiting priests needed to get with the program and use female servers when they were in our parish, she was clearly informed that the choice of altar servers was not hers to make but the priest’s.

 

[edowitz1]

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Purgatory does not exist. Jesus made purification for sins on the cross (Hebrews 1:3)

Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) [490-492].
Mary, a descendant of Adam, was born in sin (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12)

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The Magisterium is the authoritative teacher of the Church. [85-87]. - Roman Catholicism
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