Altar Girls

[Brendan]

Brendan, the Vatican statement provides no facts, either. It just rehashes the same “every one knows this is true” fallacy without providing anything to back it up. I’m really interested in someone proving that serving on the altar promotes priestly vocations. I would like it to be proved, but, so far, it’s just an assertion people keep repeating.

Is it incumbant on the Vatican to include the underlying data in every letter it send out the bishops of the world. Sorry, that the Vatican says it has seen value in it is enought for me.

Well, in all honesty, if you did not have this many altar servers the Mass would go on, just like in most parishes.

Correct, but we probably have the annual number of priestly vocations that most parishes produce.

I took a family poll. My kids are mid teens to 20. My wife and girls are appalled that the girls every Sunday are reminded that they are not boys and that they aren’t wanted. If there were only two or three servers, no big deal. But, every boy and no girls - that says a lot to the girls.

Your girls are not boys, and so what if they are called to serve. As I pointed out they can call upon no right to serve. Nothing at all is being denied to them.

And I too took a straw poll. I have 1 son (12, who is serving), 4 daughters ( 10, 8, 6, and 4) and 1 new son ( 3 months). Three of the girls would be of age to serve in our parish. When I asked them if they wanted to serve, they looked at me as if I was from Mars. My 10 year old responded for all “why would we want to do THAT?”

And she is correct. There is no need for her to serve in our parish ( unlike some were there are not enough children), so how can one claim a call that one has no right to in the first place and serves no need for the parish? The boys serve a need by serving, that of investigating a call to the priesthood. Girls cannot filful this need and there is no other need for them at that altar.

 

[PaulinVA]

Brendan,
My girls know that they can’t be priests, and our diocese was one of the last to allow girls to serve. It’s not the fact that all of your altar servers are boys, it’s that it’s all the boys. If that works for you, fine.

 

[Brendan]

Brendan,
My girls know that they can’t be priests, and our diocese was one of the last to allow girls to serve. It’s not the fact that all of your altar servers are boys, it’s that it’s all the boys. If that works for you, fine.

Working for me is actually irrelevant; it works for the parish and the archdiocese and THAT is what is truely important.

 

[TheMc]

So…having 20 Altar boys is normal? But have one extra EMHC and everyone is up in arms?

Am I the only one who sees the irony in this?

There is no irony in this, that I can see.

The vatican encourages parishes to “maintain the noble tradition” (their words, not mine) of having males serve at the altar, and the holy father himself makes use of large numbers of altar boys himself.

My bishop (the one that had 20 altar boys this morning at the cathedral) makes a point of following the liturgical lead of our holy father, including adding more solemnity to the Mass, making use of exclusively altar boys (in large numbers), adding chant to the Mass, making use of beautiful (and old) roman style vestments frequently, and adopting the Benedictine arrangement, to name a few.

As Brendan said, if a parish has the resources, is there anything bad about adopting practices that the pope uses in his liturgies? If we can not follow our holy father, who can we follow?

EMHCs, on the other hand, are only to be used when there is a real need, and when ordinary ministers and instituted acolytes can not fill that need. Using a large number of EMHCs are in no way similar to using a large number of altar boys.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

There is no irony in this, that I can see.

The vatican encourages parishes to “maintain the noble tradition” (their words, not mine) of having males serve at the altar, and the holy father himself makes use of large numbers of altar boys himself.

My bishop (the one that had 20 altar boys this morning at the cathedral) makes a point of following the liturgical lead of our holy father, including adding more solemnity to the Mass, making use of exclusively altar boys (in large numbers), adding chant to the Mass, making use of beautiful (and old) roman style vestments frequently, and adopting the Benedictine arrangement, to name a few.

As Brendan said, if a parish has the resources, is there anything bad about adopting practices that the pope uses in his liturgies? If we can not follow our holy father, who can we follow?

EMHCs, on the other hand, are only to be used when there is a real need, and when ordinary ministers and instituted acolytes can not fill that need. Using a large number of EMHCs are in no way similar to using a large number of altar boys.

Hmmm…I didn’t think I was on the Traditional Forumn…let me check.

I would find 20 altar boys distracting…myself.

But you and Brendan bring up a good point…If we can not follow our holy father…and yet Pope Benedict himself thanked all the altar servers that were there at the Vatican…INCLUDING the altar servers that were girls…or do we pick and choose when we follow him???

 

[TheMc]

I took a family poll. My kids are mid teens to 20. My wife and girls are appalled that the girls every Sunday are reminded that they are not boys and that they aren’t wanted. If there were only two or three servers, no big deal. But, every boy and no girls - that says a lot to the girls.

The things that your girls are not seeing is that no one has the right to serve at the altar.

This was the defacto standard until the 90s. Why do people have such a problem all of a sudden if some would like to keep our traditions? In the 50s, no one would have a problem with 20 boys serving Mass in a Cathedral.

 

[MusicforMovies]

Considering the historical context of altar servers when Minor Orders still existed and since Minor Orders were in preparation for the Major Orders (i.e. deacon, priest, bishop) which are for males only, I think it would be - perhaps in the long run - better if the role of altar servers were reserved, once again, to males only - especially in light of a lack of vocations.

That all being said I do appreciate the young women that do serve reverently as altar servers at our various churches, but as far as my own personal opinion stated above, I’d wish it was reserved to males only. (This also takes into consideration that boys - at a certain age especially - are less likely to be involved with activities that involve the opposite sex).

Peace,
Joel

 

[TheMc]

And I too took a straw poll. I have 1 son (12, who is serving), 4 daughters ( 10, 8, 6, and 4) and 1 new son ( 3 months). Three of the girls would be of age to serve in our parish. When I asked them if they wanted to serve, they looked at me as if I was from Mars. My 10 year old responded for all “why would we want to do THAT?”

And she is correct. There is no need for her to serve in our parish ( unlike some were there are not enough children), so how can one claim a call that one has no right to in the first place and serves no need for the parish? The boys serve a need by serving, that of investigating a call to the priesthood. Girls cannot filful this need and there is no other need for them at that altar.

Haha! Gotta love the 10yr old’s response!

While I don’t have any sisters old enough, all of the girls I know would respond in very much the same way. They don’t even desire to serve Mass, because they know that it is not their place.

Some people make it seem like all girls are extremely frustrated by pastors who exercise their legitimate authority to limit female servers. Well, they aren’t. There is a good number of them who have no desire to serve, for all the right reasons.

 

[TheMc]

But you and Brendan bring up a good point…If we can not follow our holy father…and yet Pope Benedict himself thanked all the altar servers that were there at the Vatican…INCLUDING the altar servers that were girls…or do we pick and choose when we follow him???

Yes, he thanked them. That was being polite.

But does he actually use female servers himself? Nope. That was showing his real intentions. Again, actions speak louder than words. Especially if there are at least some words behind the actions:

Redemptionis Sacramentum
47.It is altogether laudable to maintain the noble custom by which boys or youths, customarily termed servers, provide service of the altar after the manner of acolytes, and receive catechesis regarding their function in accordance with their power of comprehension. Nor should it be forgotten that a great number of sacred ministers over the course of the centuries have come from among boys such as these. Associations for them, including also the participation and assistance of their parents, should be established or promoted, and in such a way greater pastoral care will be provided for the ministers

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

Yes, he thanked them. That was being polite.

But does he actually use female servers himself? Nope. That was showing his real intentions. Again, actions speak louder than words. Especially if there are at least some words behind the actions:

Redemptionis Sacramentum
47.It is altogether laudable to maintain the noble custom by which boys or youths, customarily termed servers, provide service of the altar after the manner of acolytes, and receive catechesis regarding their function in accordance with their power of comprehension. Nor should it be forgotten that a great number of sacred ministers over the course of the centuries have come from among boys such as these. Associations for them, including also the participation and assistance of their parents, should be established or promoted, and in such a way greater pastoral care will be provided for the ministers

Excuse me but he is the Pope…if he wanted to…he could put a stop to Altar girls…he does not. This of course would be in the OF form. I think you have more than stated your beliefs in the traditional forumn…yet another reason I have no desire to attend a TLM.

 

[ConstantineTG]

There is no irony in this, that I can see.

The vatican encourages parishes to “maintain the noble tradition” (their words, not mine) of having males serve at the altar, and the holy father himself makes use of large numbers of altar boys himself.

My bishop (the one that had 20 altar boys this morning at the cathedral) makes a point of following the liturgical lead of our holy father, including adding more solemnity to the Mass, making use of exclusively altar boys (in large numbers), adding chant to the Mass, making use of beautiful (and old) roman style vestments frequently, and adopting the Benedictine arrangement, to name a few.

As Brendan said, if a parish has the resources, is there anything bad about adopting practices that the pope uses in his liturgies? If we can not follow our holy father, who can we follow?

EMHCs, on the other hand, are only to be used when there is a real need, and when ordinary ministers and instituted acolytes can not fill that need. Using a large number of EMHCs are in no way similar to using a large number of altar boys.

I agree with keeping the tradition of altar boys, but fact is many parishes couldn’t get enough boys to serve. Either there just isn’t enough boys (they stopped going to church) or they are just not willing. We should recognize the fact that the Church has opened up the possibility of girls serving the altar. If we want to have more boys serve the altar, then we should get more boys into the church instead of trying to prevent girls from serving. Because preventing girls from serving will not convince boys to serve. We have to convince them to serve first.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Yes, he thanked them. That was being polite.

But does he actually use female servers himself? Nope. That was showing his real intentions. Again, actions speak louder than words. Especially if there are at least some words behind the actions:

Careful here brother, on more than one occasion in such a short post, you have claimed to know the mind of the Pope and speak for him.

How are we sure he is just “being polite” in thanking altar girls? How do we know what his real intentions are for every action he does when he says Mass? If he has a Bishop read the Gospel for him, does that mean he wants a Bishop to read the Gospel at every Mass? This is reading too much into what happens in a Papal Mass and seeing the things you want to see and make some meaning out of it that agrees with your own ideals. Its dangerous that you try to put the Pope’s signature on this (figuratively) when the Holy Father himself has not expressively said so.

 

[MRomanos]

Yes, he thanked them. That was being polite.

But does he actually use female servers himself? Nope. That was showing his real intentions. Again, actions speak louder than words. Especially if there are at least some words behind the actions:

Probably because they were all acolytes haha!

 

[PaulinVA]

The things that your girls are not seeing is that no one has the right to serve at the altar.

This was the defacto standard until the 90s. Why do people have such a problem all of a sudden if some would like to keep our traditions? In the 50s, no one would have a problem with 20 boys serving Mass in a Cathedral.

Are the fifties our standard now? Were they really all that great?

Anyway, you missed the point of my post. No one has a right to serve at Mass, absolutely. I was simply commenting on the fact that, in one parish,* all* of the boys served every week.

 

[Holly3278]

I see nothing wrong with girls serving as altar servers if there are no boys to serve. However, if there are plenty of boys, it should be reserved for them.

 

[Brendan]

But you and Brendan bring up a good point…If we can not follow our holy father…and yet Pope Benedict himself thanked all the altar servers that were there at the Vatican…INCLUDING the altar servers that were girls…or do we pick and choose when we follow him???

There was a documentary a few years ago on the Pope’s altarboys. The Vatican runs a boarding school that brings in boys from across Italy. The school provides the boys to serve at the Papal Masses in both St. Peter’s and in the Pope’s private chapel Masses.

When the school is out for the summer, boys from Malta come in to serve.

Could the Pope choose girls to serve at the Masses, yes he could, but he does not.

Yes, if he visits a parish, he will allow the girls to serve if they are assigned. His actual preference is to have the seminarians serve (that is the request that is sent ahead to a diocese by the Papal staff).

The same holds true for Cardinal Arinze. TheMc posted a video of Cardinal Arinze answering questions about the use of altar girls.

As I mentioned, his Emmience visited our parish last Lent to speak at our parish Lenten retreat. If there were girls who served, he would have probably thanked them too. But he gave our ranks upon ranks of altarboys glowing praise and said that we would pray that similar sights be seen at many parishes.

 

[GraceDK]

I think its great with girls helping the priest.
My reason is this

• At the supreme alter which is the Cross of Jesus, we know at least 3 women and one man were standing there serving our only High Priest.
• Jesus said: let the children come to me, do not hinder them.
• Boys are intelligent. They know that only they can become priests, and if they have a living faith, look up to the priest and have a vocation, they will become priests whether a girl is helping the priest too or not. Pettyness and pride should never be encouraged in boys.
• Girls, and their parents (and maybe also many more women in the parish) like the message that it sends to the world that God doesn’t have favourites. Girls in no way defile the alter, but are as precious in the eyes of God as boys are.
• Both boys and girls, by being respected and given important roles in the church come closer to the truth about themselves and about God. This will in turn foster good men and women who grow up to have strong Catholic families or join religious life.
• Everywhere in Europe we have girls serving at the alters. This would not be allowed if it was somehow inapropriate. The Church has judged well and I think we should applause the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, who include girls in this task.

 

[PaulinVA]

Okay, let me ask a basic question:

Why is serving at Mass a means to an end, instead of an end to itself? Why does it have to foster priestly vocations?

With the way the Church is today, can it simply foster* faith* among the young people?

 

[Brendan]

Okay, let me ask a basic question:

Why is serving at Mass a means to an end, instead of an end to itself? Why does it have to foster priestly vocations?

With the way the Church is today, can it simply foster* faith* among the young people?

As far as way does altar serving have to foster vocations? It doesn’t it simply makes the ground more fertile for the young man to answer the call.

The Vatican has recognized that fact, and I have no reason to doubt them. As I mentioned before, the Vatican would have FAR greater insight into what assists in the fostering of a vocation than either of us.

As far as foster FAITH among young people, the Church does that as well.

Service at God’s altar does not necessarily foster Faith, no more so than it will bring about a particular vocation.

But not all who develop Faith have been altar servers, in fact, I would claim that, of those who have Faith, it is actually a minority who have been altar servers. But that does not hold true for vocations, There are very, very few priests who, in their past have not been altar servers.

Altar service is not a logical preprequist for Faith, but it is a logical prerequist for priestly vocations.

 

[Brendan]

I

• Everywhere in Europe we have girls serving at the alters. This would not be allowed if it was somehow inapropriate. The Church has judged well and I think we should applause the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, who include girls in this task.

Is it inappropriate, no

Grace, the Church has stated that any bishop or priest may reject the use of girls for service in the Mass (a priest may choose to have only boys serve) . In the same letter, the Church has stated that a bishop or priest cannot reject the use of boys ( a priest cannot choose to have only girls serve)

Do you recognize the guidance of the Holy Spirit in this matter as well? It is likewise deserving of applause?

If not, why not?